Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip

[cramx3]

I don't have a child so I guess I didn't think of that, but how long could you date someone without your daughter knowing?  I mean just meeting someone I would imagine you can do without her having to know/meet them.  Where I am going, is that maybe you could hold off on your daughter meeting and growing an attachment to someone until you know that person is worthy?

[Prog Snob]

That's what I'd like to do, ideally. Give it time before I let her meet Gianna. That's exactly what I want to do. So I know I'm getting ahead of myself right now.

[Stadler]

It's not that I'm thinking the worst of myself. I'm just concerned about getting close to the other person. I do not want to go through another destructive breakup.  It's another person to introduce into my daughter's life eventually. She doesn't understand certain things. When she asked where Natalie and Shannen were (my ex-gf and her daughter), and I had to tell her they weren't coming around anymore. The look of confusion and sadness in her eyes broke my heart. She adored them. I can't even talk about it without getting choked up. Sure, break my heart I'll get over it. But what are the ramifications on a five year old who hasn't full grasped the concept of loss? What if she really does understand it but can't express it because of her limited vocabulary? I know I need to just take that risk or else I'll never get anywhere. I know.

Understanding very well that the world changes when there are kids involved (my wife's kids were 6, 15, and 20 when we met... maybe 5, 14, and 19... I forget... anyway...) and mine was ugh, here we go again...12, maybe?  13?  Anway, we waited almost six months before we introduced them into the equation.  Not suggesting that you should have (or not) done that; I'm not judging you, I'm just commiserating with you. 

But besides kids, the best thing one can do is simply take it one date at a time.  Literally, every date, view it as 5 hours, with nothing before and nothing after.   You don't have to TELL her this (because she'll probably not take it well) but as a sort of mindset, it's very helpful.   You kind of avoid the baggage and the buildup of expectations that way.  It's not easy to do, but it CAN be done, and if you have the insight and help of a therapist (as I did) it becomes a little easier.  I'm a CHRONIC over-thinker, and I do get a sort of anxiety before dates (I've never "not walked in", but I have had that moment in the car thinking "what the FUCK am I doing here???") and I'm not sure this will totally get rid of that feeling, but it will alleviate some of the "is this right for me?" and "am I wasting my time here?" feelings. 

It helps with decisions, too.  I know for me, after a period of time, it becomes crystal clear (or at least a lot clearer than it usually is) whether you should continue on with this person or not.  You're making the call based purely on whether you like this person or not, and not because of inertia, or momentum, or some artificial thing that shouldn't be involved in the first place.

[Prog Snob]

I understand what you're saying and thank you for the input. I also fall into the trap of chronic overthinking, just because I've become so damn protective of my daughter and myself. Taking it one date at a time is all I can do. There used to be a time where I wouldn't worry so much, where I would have no expectations and whatever happened, happened. That's what I need to get back to. I was less stressed and enjoyed the new women from week to week without the worry of feelings being involved.

[bout to crash]

John please don't take this as a dig, just my two cents based on where I've been:

It seems a bit like you're using your daughter as an excuse. I'm not saying there's no validity to your feelings around that, it just seems like you're mostly scared for you but it's easier to hide behind a little girl's feelings, yknow? If you avoid experiences and relationships because of what might happen down the road, you're going to have a pretty unfulfilling life.
And frankly, if you're going to turn around and run every time you start to develop feelings you should not be putting yourself out there in the first place. It's not fair to the other people involved IMO. I've been burned that way a few times and it fucking sucks.
(I'm not at all criticizing because I've done my fair share of pushing away when things get super serious, but I think lately I've been more honest about what I want/what I can give in putting myself out there.)

Also, I had a three-person date tonight

Do tell more 

We watched Return of the Living Dead, ate Asian food and got naked   

[Chino]

John please don't take this as a dig, just my two cents based on where I've been:

It seems a bit like you're using your daughter as an excuse. I'm not saying there's no validity to your feelings around that, it just seems like you're mostly scared for you but it's easier to hide behind a little girl's feelings, yknow? If you avoid experiences and relationships because of what might happen down the road, you're going to have a pretty unfulfilling life.
And frankly, if you're going to turn around and run every time you start to develop feelings you should not be putting yourself out there in the first place. It's not fair to the other people involved IMO. I've been burned that way a few times and it fucking sucks.
(I'm not at all criticizing because I've done my fair share of pushing away when things get super serious, but I think lately I've been more honest about what I want/what I can give in putting myself out there.)

Also, I had a three-person date tonight

Do tell more 

We watched Return of the Living Dead, ate Asian food and got naked   

At the same time?

[Prog Snob]

John please don't take this as a dig, just my two cents based on where I've been:

It seems a bit like you're using your daughter as an excuse. I'm not saying there's no validity to your feelings around that, it just seems like you're mostly scared for you but it's easier to hide behind a little girl's feelings, yknow? If you avoid experiences and relationships because of what might happen down the road, you're going to have a pretty unfulfilling life.
And frankly, if you're going to turn around and run every time you start to develop feelings you should not be putting yourself out there in the first place. It's not fair to the other people involved IMO. I've been burned that way a few times and it fucking sucks.
(I'm not at all criticizing because I've done my fair share of pushing away when things get super serious, but I think lately I've been more honest about what I want/what I can give in putting myself out there.)

I've known you long enough, my dear. You're more than welcome to give it to me straight.

Sometimes I wonder if I do use her as an excuse but when I sit and think about it, I can't logically work that out in my mind as being the case. I think it's probably part of the reason but I think it's more of a fear of commitment again. It's more mental than anything. I'm building it up in my head when there's no inclination of it happening.

[cramx3]

We watched Return of the Living Dead, ate Asian food and got naked   

Hmmm, could make the typical asian food/sex joke here 

John, could be a mix of both.  You could really have that fear of commitment, but the way you cover your fear is by using your daughter.  Just a thought.  Having my own fears of commitment, I can relate though.  I do feel like sometimes I find excuses for my own fear.

On that note, like Stadler had shown, I think it is possible for you to date someone and even date them seriously without getting your daughter involved.

[Stadler]

On that note, like Stadler had shown, I think it is possible for you to date someone and even date them seriously without getting your daughter involved.

I'll go one further:  after my divorce, I dated (to varying degrees) several people, and my current wife is the only one my daughter ever met.   I was very up front about that, and made no apologies for it.  Actually, I think only one girl thought it odd; honestly, most were relieved in a way to take that off the table early on.

[Prog Snob]

On that note, like Stadler had shown, I think it is possible for you to date someone and even date them seriously without getting your daughter involved.

I'll go one further:  after my divorce, I dated (to varying degrees) several people, and my current wife is the only one my daughter ever met.   I was very up front about that, and made no apologies for it.  Actually, I think only one girl thought it odd; honestly, most were relieved in a way to take that off the table early on.

It's definitely possible, especially considering she lives with her mother.

[bout to crash]

Yeah, she doesn't need to meet them until way later. Makes it much less complicated. And I totally identify with the fear of commitment, but you can have a relationship that isn't too committed instead of running away because you're starting to have feelings for a person.
Maybe not for everybody, but that kind of arrangement is working great for me!

And no Chino, not at the same time

[King Postwhore]

Chino = Costanza

[Stadler]

And no Chino, not at the same time

You're such a narrow-minded prude.  You should expand your wings a little and try new things! 

[Prog Snob]

Yeah, she doesn't need to meet them until way later. Makes it much less complicated. And I totally identify with the fear of commitment, but you can have a relationship that isn't too committed instead of running away because you're starting to have feelings for a person.
Maybe not for everybody, but that kind of arrangement is working great for me!

I know it's something I need to work on.

Chino = Costanza

Does someone want to photoshop Chino's head here?

[sylvan]

I talked to the woman I went out with and she told me she met someone else she was interested in dating. She was upfront about it, which is awesome. No need for bullshit or avoidance. Props to her for being real. And because she showed me that respect, and I wasn't really looking for anything serious, I'm all good with it. If only everyone was that straightforward.

So we know about Prog and his daughter and his worries about dating. We've heard Stadler talk about his dating experience having a kid. What about the rest of us that don't have kids? Do you guys date people with children? Since I'm generally looking for something serious and I'm not sure I ever want kids, the prospect scares the shit out of me. And it has nothing to do with thinking this person would expect something from me. I've also thought that I could be missing out on my perfect woman because she already has a child.

[Chino]

I'd have zero problem dating a woman with a child as long as she had her act together.

[cramx3]

Isn't it funny how when a girl turns you down respectfully you actually feel "good" in a way?  Obviously you don't feel good about the rejection, but because respect was actually shown.  Honesty in dating is so rare.

I would try to avoid someone with a child.  I am not ready for that kind of lifestyle now.  I'd like to think I wouldn't hold someone's past over them with regards to a future with me, but I wouldn't really go after a girl if I knew she had a kid.... now if we met and hit things off and then I find out she has a kid, I don't think I would leave her for that reason.  I question myself almost daily about whether I think I would ever want a child, some days I feel like I would like one, others I feel like I never would want one, obviously I am not near the point where I need to make that decision, but as long as I waver on the idea, it's a no go for me.  I need to be 100% committed to the idea of a child before I go that route.

[YtseBitsySpider]

And no Chino, not at the same time

You're such a narrow-minded prude.  You should expand your wings a little and try new things! 

...actually, the way I read it she didn't say they didn't all get naked. She said they didn't watch the movie, eat Asian food, AND get naked all at the same time. Probably ate while they watched the movie. Let the food settle....and then moved on to the third thing.

[sylvan]

Probably ate while they watched the movie. Let the food settle....and then moved on to the third thing.

You are supposed to wait 30 mins after eating

[sylvan]

Isn't it funny how when a girl turns you down respectfully you actually feel "good" in a way?  Obviously you don't feel good about the rejection, but because respect was actually shown.  Honesty in dating is so rare.

I would try to avoid someone with a child.  I am not ready for that kind of lifestyle now.  I'd like to think I wouldn't hold someone's past over them with regards to a future with me, but I wouldn't really go after a girl if I knew she had a kid.... now if we met and hit things off and then I find out she has a kid, I don't think I would leave her for that reason.  I question myself almost daily about whether I think I would ever want a child, some days I feel like I would like one, others I feel like I never would want one, obviously I am not near the point where I need to make that decision, but as long as I waver on the idea, it's a no go for me.  I need to be 100% committed to the idea of a child before I go that route.

Yeah, her honesty was refreshing.

I think if I met someone who I clicked with, then found out she had a kid, I would approach it differently. What I would decide is up in the air. Long-term, I'd like to build something with someone from scratch ,so to speak. If that means kids, I'll approach that decision when it comes. But like you, I feel like my indifference says a lot about my position on Do I/Do I Not want kids.

[cramx3]

I'm too selfish to have a kid, honestly.  That's probably my biggest fault.

Anyway, tomorrow I got my date, not sure exactly what we are doing but my company is having an outing at a bar/arcade in NYC so I told her I would likely be drunk by the time we meet up, then I will be spending the night at her place, took friday off from work and we are going to go to the Met followed by her coming back home with me to spend the night in Jersey.  Kind of crazy how these plans took off like this, but I guess I am going to find a lout out this weekend about our compatibility.

[Stadler]

So we know about Prog and his daughter and his worries about dating. We've heard Stadler talk about his dating experience having a kid. What about the rest of us that don't have kids? Do you guys date people with children? Since I'm generally looking for something serious and I'm not sure I ever want kids, the prospect scares the shit out of me. And it has nothing to do with thinking this person would expect something from me. I've also thought that I could be missing out on my perfect woman because she already has a child.

Chino nailed it.  I know for me, I found a fucking gold mine treasure trove of women who married in high school/college, guy turned out to be a dud, but were looking at 35, with a child or two, and the daunting prospect of starting over.   Not all of them have their shit together, I grant you, but these are - bear with the stereotype - predominantly women who aren't interested any longer in what shirt you wear, whether you like to play an occasional game of PS3, and aren't really interested in the self-absorbed sort of drama that a lot of younger, single women have, but are looking for a guy to share life with, experiment in life with, and all they ask is to be treated with a modicum of respect and dignity.  It does, of course, depend on how old the kid is, and you have the burden of an ex that is NOT going anywhere, but I have found that in a statistically significant number of cases, this isn't NEARLY the problem it might sound like.  Not always, but it's not like you see on TV where all single moms are fat slobs with six screaming hellions wallowing in their cereal on the floor. 

Plus, and not to be at all crude, but there is something incredibly sexy about a woman who is secure, who knows what she wants, knows that her chances around the merry-go-round are finite, and needs to knock off a couple things from her bucket list.  Right now, if I had the choice between an attractive single girl of 22 or an attractive single mom of 35 to have sex with, all things being relatively equal?   No question. 

Again, I'm generalizing, so bear with me, but I'm trying to present what you might find if you dig hard enough.  I was scared shitless to be single again with a kid after being married for almost 15 years; I thought that I would never have any interesting sex again unless I paid for it.  I certainly hope that my current marriage lasts forever, and I'm deeply in love with my wife, but it's for the right reasons.  I certainly am not "scared" to be single again. 

[sylvan]

I found a fucking gold mine treasure trove of women who married in high school/college, guy turned out to be a dud, but were looking at 35, with a child or two, and the daunting prospect of starting over.   Not all of them have their shit together, I grant you, but these are - bear with the stereotype - predominantly women who aren't interested any longer in what shirt you wear, whether you like to play an occasional game of PS3, and aren't really interested in the self-absorbed sort of drama that a lot of younger, single women have, but are looking for a guy to share life with, experiment in life with, and all they ask is to be treated with a modicum of respect and dignity.

I've never found myself to be this amazing "catch" of a man, regardless of what other people might think of me. But, I do find that I shine in comparison to all these d-bags that make up a large majority of single men. I can appreciate that they didn't necessarily make a mistake so much as life happens. I have messaged a few single mothers because I was curious what the dynamic would be like and if it's something I could handle for the right woman.

Plus, and not to be at all crude, but there is something incredibly sexy about a woman who is secure, who knows what she wants, knows that her chances around the merry-go-round are finite, and needs to knock off a couple things from her bucket list.  Right now, if I had the choice between an attractive single girl of 22 or an attractive single mom of 35 to have sex with, all things being relatively equal?   No question.

I totally agree. And honestly, the before and after sex would be far more fun and interesting as well. But, that's strictly in the sexual sense. I veiw single mothers as being more thoughtful about their relationships. I would be apprehensive to try for something not serious with a single mother for fear that she, or I, would develop deeper feelings. I've honestly never felt like these women are looking for someone to be a father to their child. Maybe I should give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they would approach it from the same angle as many other single people: have fun and see where it goes.

[Stadler]

Two bits of advice:  I don't know that I would bring it up on the first date, but if she asked me, I would defer on meeting the child for some time.  Not for any reason than it's not fair to the kid.  You need to be able to make a decision on this woman without the burden of having to worry if you're impacting the child.  That can come later if/when you are in a committed relationship. 

Two, it didn't happen often with me, but it did happen, where the woman went the opposite way, and rather than be thoughtful and pragmatic about their choices, they went full on, "knight-in-shining-armor" in terms of what they were looking for.   My big "downside" is that I am not that tall (5'8") and to be honest, I don't ever remember "minimum of 6'0"" being that much a dealbreaker when I was in college.    So if you go down this route, you still have to have something of a thick skin. 

[Prog Snob]

The other women that I was speaking to stopped talking to me. She claimed I was just too intense for her, that there is too much of me to process and it would just get in the way.

[cramx3]

I don't ever remember "minimum of 6'0"" being that much a dealbreaker when I was in college.

It's funny because I bring this up with my friends.  So many woman have something along the lines of "If you aren't over 6ft tall, don't bother messaging me" and I'm all cool with people trying to find what they want, but if you are putting something like that out there, doesn't that eliminate such a large amount of awesome people?  I actually took a screen shot of this convo awhile ago to share with my friends, but ill sum it up here:

girl: How tall are you?
me: Why does it matter, is there a height restriction?
girl: No, I am just curious
me: I am 5'10", did I make the cut?
girl: Yes you made the cut

So clearly there was a number in her head.  My friend's told me next time someone asks, I follow up with "how much do you weigh?" Which I am just WAITING for opportunity to ask that. 

[sylvan]

 
That shit is crazy! I can honestly understand if a woman is on the taller side and likes to wear heels. But that's only if she has a problem being taller than her man. I went out with a woman that was 6'. I'm 6'1", so it wasn't an issue, but she did wear flats. I also went out with someone that loved to wear heels, but wasn't super tall. I do see women say things about it in their profiles though.

My big "downside" is that I'm not as successful or set in a career as I'd like to be. This is magnified when we're talking about a potential serious relationship with a mother. So while I might like to dip my toes in that pool of potential matches, it seems like it just doesn't match up well. Which is too bad, because maybe I'm missing out.

[sylvan]

The other women that I was speaking to stopped talking to me. She claimed I was just too intense for her, that there is too much of me to process and it would just get in the way.

That's a bummer. Too bad she couldn't just bring it up and talk about it instead of just bailing. One of the exact reasons I've tried to keep it light with people. I can be super intense if I don't keep it reigned in. It feels awesome when two people can be that way together, but early on it's too easy for people to "walk" away.

[Stadler]

I don't ever remember "minimum of 6'0"" being that much a dealbreaker when I was in college.

It's funny because I bring this up with my friends.  So many woman have something along the lines of "If you aren't over 6ft tall, don't bother messaging me" and I'm all cool with people trying to find what they want, but if you are putting something like that out there, doesn't that eliminate such a large amount of awesome people?  I actually took a screen shot of this convo awhile ago to share with my friends, but ill sum it up here:

girl: How tall are you?
me: Why does it matter, is there a height restriction?
girl: No, I am just curious
me: I am 5'10", did I make the cut?
girl: Yes you made the cut

So clearly there was a number in her head.  My friend's told me next time someone asks, I follow up with "how much do you weigh?" Which I am just WAITING for opportunity to ask that. 

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  Thankfully it doesn't bother me; I dated a girl who was 6'0" in college (volleyball player) and a girl who was 6'1" after that, but they are few and far between.  I can see at least wanting to be taller than your girl, but it's not that important; I'm taller than my wife, though she has heels that make her taller than me.

For the record:  Tina Fey is 5'4" and her husband is 5'2".

[Prog Snob]

The other women that I was speaking to stopped talking to me. She claimed I was just too intense for her, that there is too much of me to process and it would just get in the way.

That's a bummer. Too bad she couldn't just bring it up and talk about it instead of just bailing. One of the exact reasons I've tried to keep it light with people. I can be super intense if I don't keep it reigned in. It feels awesome when two people can be that way together, but early on it's too easy for people to "walk" away.

I usually try not to reveal too much early on, but when they ask the questions I can't lie about things. Back to the dating site.

[cramx3]

The other women that I was speaking to stopped talking to me. She claimed I was just too intense for her, that there is too much of me to process and it would just get in the way.

That's a bummer. Too bad she couldn't just bring it up and talk about it instead of just bailing. One of the exact reasons I've tried to keep it light with people. I can be super intense if I don't keep it reigned in. It feels awesome when two people can be that way together, but early on it's too easy for people to "walk" away.

I usually try not to reveal too much early on, but when they ask the questions I can't lie about things. Back to the dating site.

And as much as it sucks that she lost interest, you shouldn't lie so you did the right thing.  Just think of it this way, if she can't handle it then she isn't for you.

[Prog Snob]

The other women that I was speaking to stopped talking to me. She claimed I was just too intense for her, that there is too much of me to process and it would just get in the way.

That's a bummer. Too bad she couldn't just bring it up and talk about it instead of just bailing. One of the exact reasons I've tried to keep it light with people. I can be super intense if I don't keep it reigned in. It feels awesome when two people can be that way together, but early on it's too easy for people to "walk" away.

I usually try not to reveal too much early on, but when they ask the questions I can't lie about things. Back to the dating site.

And as much as it sucks that she lost interest, you shouldn't lie so you did the right thing.  Just think of it this way, if she can't handle it then she isn't for you.

Thanks. That's pretty much how I feel about it.

[bout to crash]

True that.

On the kid thing- I used to think it would bother me, but the woman I've been seeing has a nine year old daughter who is super cool, and doesn't really get in the way of anything. The girl I've gone on two dates with also has kids, but I haven't met them.
Would I want to live with somebody who had kids? Nahh. But dating is fine.

As for the height thing, I don't see what the big deal is. As a fairly tall woman (5'9) I've dated shorter guys and it's never been a big deal unless THEY are insecure about it. I tend to be attracted to fairly tall dudes, but height has never been a deal breaker or something I pay much attention to.
I did happen to notice this OKC guy who messaged me was 5'3 and I was like "DAMN" ... but he seems cool so whatever.

[sylvan]

But the difference is that you're not looking for a potential monogomous relationship. If I knew I could date a single mother in a non serious way, I totally would. It's not like I think I couldn't click with these women, or that there aren't ones I'm attracted to (wowsers! to some of these moms). If it's a relationship that's going to potentially continue for a long time, the kid would likely become part of the equation, and even the small possibility of that scares the fuck out of me. Not the responsibilities I'm looking for any time soon in my life.

On a side note, I find OKC essentially useless at this point. I can't remember the last time I got a message reply, but I don't message people very often because there's hardly ever new people that I'm into.

[Adami]

I also won't date a woman with kids, but very different reasons.

My ex-fiance had a 4 year old daughter when we were together, and when we broke up, essentially having to stop being the little girl's life was the most heart breaking thing ever. So because the possibility of a breakup exists, I can't handle the pain of losing a kid with whom I've bonded.