Author Topic: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip  (Read 279295 times)

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Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #665 on: September 12, 2015, 11:41:38 PM »
Nice and nice!  :)  I think kissing and a good make out sesh is awesome and crucial to the beginning of something.

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #666 on: September 13, 2015, 07:23:27 AM »
talking to:
1. a broad-shouldered table-top gamer with a majestic beard working on his PhD in feminist studies
2. a really hot democratic socialist biker dude who would be a fun challenge to try to convert to the far left
3. an extraordinarily smart (and handsome) guy who just came to america and doesn't speak very good english, so i have mostly been talking to him in spanish about politics and economics
4. a 23-year-old liberal arts student who loves alternative rock and grunge music, which is sort of awesome because it's not from her time at all, it was even a little before mine.

i want them all :(
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 08:16:52 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #667 on: September 13, 2015, 08:47:54 AM »
Without monogamy, you can have them all!  ;)


And yeah cram, totally. My first couple kisses with the dude were a little awkward (as I think I shared here :lol) but getting much better. It's nice also to just have makeout sessions and be left with anticipation about everything else. I'm not always good at that.
Oh Jackie, always jumping to the most homoerotic possibility.

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #668 on: September 13, 2015, 02:08:11 PM »
Without monogamy, you can have them all!  ;)

great idea! :)

have dates lined up now with the college girl and the democratic socialist. the spanish speaker, i've been talking to him longer than any of them and he still hasn't asked me out. i think the doctoral student has given up on me.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #669 on: September 13, 2015, 04:52:46 PM »
And yeah cram, totally. My first couple kisses with the dude were a little awkward (as I think I shared here :lol) but getting much better. It's nice also to just have makeout sessions and be left with anticipation about everything else. I'm not always good at that.

Yea, definitely tough to hold back, but agreed that the build up and anticipation can really pay off.

As for all the people to date, that's great if that can work for you.  I have no idea how I would be able to keep up with multiple dates though.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #670 on: September 14, 2015, 07:42:22 AM »
2. a really hot democratic socialist biker dude who would be a fun challenge to try to convert to the far left

Not making this political (since it isn't about the ideology) but just to understand, how much further can they GO????  That's kind of like converting a DT fan into a Rush fan... not a big leap.   

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #671 on: September 14, 2015, 11:44:37 PM »
I was wondering that myself  :lol

Anyway, made date #4 with the dude for Wednesday. I kind of think it's going to uh, go to the next level. I'm going to his place, which I have not been to before :eyebrows:

Also trying to nail down another date with the lady  ;D... but that probably won't be for two weeks since she's busy this week and I'm busy next week.

Meanwhile, people are messaging me on OKC like crazy and I'm overwhelmed. Ain't nobody got time for that. First world problems, bro.
Oh Jackie, always jumping to the most homoerotic possibility.

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #672 on: September 15, 2015, 04:08:29 AM »
2. a really hot democratic socialist biker dude who would be a fun challenge to try to convert to the far left

Not making this political (since it isn't about the ideology) but just to understand, how much further can they GO????  That's kind of like converting a DT fan into a Rush fan... not a big leap.

I would call Democratic Socialism the closest ideology to the center that is actually left. Anything further right is at least a centrist ideology, but is often confused with leftism by reactionaries, especially in extreme right-wing countries like the United States.

I was wondering that myself  :lol

When I am wondering about something, I usually research it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 04:15:36 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #673 on: September 15, 2015, 05:47:14 AM »
Anyway, made date #4 with the dude for Wednesday. I kind of think it's going to uh, go to the next level. I'm going to his place, which I have not been to before :eyebrows:

Good times, good times!  :hat

Had my 7th date last night with the same girl that I met a month ago now.  Im really liking her, just so much in common and she has a great sense of humor.  We have another date lined up for Thursday.  We also have tickets to see Epica together (assuming they dont cancel, which they have started doing due to Simone's dying father  :sad:) and I got a hotel room in NYC for the evening for us in a couple weeks.  I've never met a female who is into the same music as me so thats another awesome quality.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #674 on: September 15, 2015, 07:14:11 AM »
especially in extreme right-wing countries like the United States.

Maybe you should "wonder" a little more about the political climate in the United States... "extreme" is not an appropriate descriptor even when compared to some of the more socialist of our world brothers.  We've got nothing on Austria, and actually, right this second (though not generally) we're probably not the most "extreme" on the CONTINENT. 

Not trying to change the thread, just giving you something to use on your next conversion, I mean date.  :)

Serious dating question:  could you date someone you don't share political ideology with?

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #675 on: September 15, 2015, 09:01:22 AM »
especially in extreme right-wing countries like the United States.

Maybe you should "wonder" a little more about the political climate in the United States... "extreme" is not an appropriate descriptor even when compared to some of the more socialist of our world brothers.  We've got nothing on Austria, and actually, right this second (though not generally) we're probably not the most "extreme" on the CONTINENT.

That depends entirely on your perspective, doesn't it? It's not like this is something you can measure or test. What you consider "more right-wing", I might consider relatively progressive. Austria has universal health care, for example.

Libertarians believe in a political compass: socially left, socially right, economically left, economically right. I reject the distinction between social and economic, so already we are running into some language barriers. To me, libertarianism (classical liberalism) and fascism are on the same side of the spectrum, whereas classical libertarianism (anarchosyndicalism) is on the same side as communism. The first two are concerned with preserving, expanding or enforcing a power dynamic, whereas the second two are concerned with eliminating it. The issue of authoritarian vs. non-authoritarian is not the most important issue to me; I am a non-authoritarian, but I view that concept much differently from the way libertarians view it. You see how hard it is to agree on words?

The problem with political debates, I find, is that so much of them involves trying to agree on terms, and very little of it involves discussion of any actual ideas. Labels are often immediately dismissed, and ideas are often immediately labeled to facilitate their dismissal. This is great if you are trying to win an argument, but terrible if you actually are affected by the issues you are trying to discuss.

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Not trying to change the thread, just giving you something to use on your next conversion, I mean date.  :)

The funny thing is I actually have no interest in converting him, and my comment was a joke relying on the incongruity between people's perceptions of Democratic Socialists and the statement itself. People who immediately believe members of the left are nutjobs have a hard time getting such humor, because they have too low an opinion of their ideological opponents' intelligence. This phenomenon is also often seen with men watching female comedians.

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Serious dating question:  could you date someone you don't share political ideology with?

They would have to be on the same side of the spectrum, because my political ideology is based on conclusions I have drawn from things I have seen, witnessed, experienced with my own eyes and ears, felt and observed. Political ideologies on the other side of the spectrum are primarily concerned with either ignoring, invalidating, justifying, rationalizing or marginalizing those things, which is unacceptable to me. I am sure that you, too, have standards for what type of person you allow into your bedroom.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 10:16:15 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #676 on: September 15, 2015, 09:51:04 AM »
Serious dating question:  could you date someone you don't share political ideology with?

I definitely could.  My views are mine and hers are hers.  If the views are so strong that you can't agree then obviously we won't be dating anymore, but I would never not date someone just because they have different ideals than I do.

Offline Cedar redaC

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #677 on: September 15, 2015, 11:47:35 AM »
Man, this thread has gone P/R!  :lol

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #678 on: September 15, 2015, 12:28:08 PM »
The problem with political debates, I find, is that so much of them involves trying to agree on terms, and very little of it involves discussion of any actual ideas. Labels are often immediately dismissed, and ideas are often immediately labeled to facilitate their dismissal. This is great if you are trying to win an argument, but terrible if you actually are affected by the issues you are trying to discuss.

Though I daresay we share little in terms of the labeling you mentioned (and which I deleted for space, and not to ignore), I couldn't agree more on this last paragraph.   I DO separate the social with the economic (I don't believe government has a place in social politics; that is reserved for the individual, and the individual needs to take responsibility for that), and do so strenuously.   Having said that, I have this conversation a lot, and I find that when we talk about the strategy - the WHAT: what do we want to accomplish, what are our goals - there aren't a lot of differences.  The differences develop when we talk about the tactics - the HOW:  how do we provide access to healthcare, how do we promote public safety, how do we assure ourselves that we are putting the right people to work in the right jobs - that's where we differ. 

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The funny thing is I actually have no interest in converting him, and my comment was a joke relying on the incongruity between people's perceptions of Democratic Socialists and the statement itself. People who immediately believe members of the left are nutjobs have a hard time getting such humor, because they have too low an opinion of their ideological opponents' intelligence. This phenomenon is also often seen with men watching female comedians.

No different than the left referring to those on the right as "extremists" and, well, "nutjobs".  I've actually been called a "Nazi baby-killer" to my face because of my politics, which, besides being ignorant (neither are telltale symptoms of a ultra-conservative in the US today) is incorrect (I am a libertarian and while pro-choice, abortion would not be a ready choice for me, personally).

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They would have to be on the same side of the spectrum, because my political ideology is based on conclusions I have drawn from things I have seen, witnessed, experienced with my own eyes and ears, felt and observed. Political ideologies on the other side of the spectrum are primarily concerned with either ignoring, invalidating, justifying, rationalizing or marginalizing those things, which is unacceptable to me. I am sure that you, too, have standards for what type of person you allow into your bedroom.

And... exactly as I thought: for all your spewing about labels and assumptions and ideologies, you're not much different.  Judge those as inferior who don't think like you.   For me, I have my faults, but I want people who are honest and passionate and open minded in my bedroom.   I want someone who loves ME, and - provided I am not a criminal, predator, or dangerous to myself or society - accepts me for who I am, politics and all.  And my part of the bargain is to accept you as YOU are, politics and all.   If you're being ignored, invalidated, rationalized or marginalized, it's not because you're dating a right winger, it's because you're dating a dick.   And whether you admit to it or not, you are ignoring, invalidating, rationalizing, justifying, and marginalizing ME for my politics (or at least those that think like I do), and therefore those traits are clearly not exclusive to the right (though let me be clear: I am not calling you a "dick").

And this is not "P/R", by the way, it's about the mechanics of dating.  The psychology and politics of dating, and very relevant to the discussion.   Almost as relevant as whether Jackie takes it to the next level or not on the next date.  :)   
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 12:35:34 PM by Stadler »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #679 on: September 15, 2015, 12:40:27 PM »
almost as relevant as whether Jackie takes it to the next level or not on the next date.  :)   

Totally not as relevant as that.  I am at the edge of my seat waiting for the next update like a reality tv show except actually good and real.  :lol

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #680 on: September 15, 2015, 12:57:29 PM »
almost as relevant as whether Jackie takes it to the next level or not on the next date.  :)   

Totally not as relevant as that.  I am at the edge of my seat waiting for the next update like a reality tv show except actually good and real.  :lol

Yeah, okay.  You're right.  I didn't want to appear over-eager.  :)

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #681 on: September 15, 2015, 02:01:42 PM »
And... exactly as I thought: for all your spewing about labels and assumptions and ideologies, you're not much different.  Judge those as inferior who don't think like you.

I don't judge them as inferior; I think you are making a bit of a leap. In fact, I find that reaction puzzling, although I'm not saying that in a negative way; I just do not understand it. I see the society we live in as one that treats certain people as inferior, and I see right-wing ideologies as being ideologies that perpetuate that dynamic, whether intentionally or via ignorance of the dynamic itself. So for me personally, knowing what I know afnd having seen what I have seen, sleeping with a conservative would be an act of self-disrespect, because I would be allowing someone who knowingly or unknowingly supports my marginalization to use me for their pleasure. That does not mean I don't have conversations with conservatives; it does not mean I refuse to be their friends, or that I don't buy from them or sell to them or work for them. It just means I do not date them.

Because I am a marginalized person, I feel that when I say conservative ideologies are valid, I am allowing my own right to be treated as a human being with dignity to be a topic of debate. And this includes libertarianism, as well-meaning as some libertarians are, because by separating the economic from the social, they are ignoring all of the ways the economy is used to enforce people's marginalization. This ultimately means that when I sleep with a conservative, I treat myself as less than human, and when I don't, I treat myself as being on the same level as them.

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And this is not "P/R", by the way, it's about the mechanics of dating.  The psychology and politics of dating, and very relevant to the discussion.   Almost as relevant as whether Jackie takes it to the next level or not on the next date.  :)   

I agree with that completely.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 02:48:10 PM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #682 on: September 15, 2015, 05:00:45 PM »
I don't judge them as inferior; I think you are making a bit of a leap. In fact, I find that reaction puzzling, although I'm not saying that in a negative way; I just do not understand it. I see the society we live in as one that treats certain people as inferior, and I see right-wing ideologies as being ideologies that perpetuate that dynamic, whether intentionally or via ignorance of the dynamic itself.  So for me personally, knowing what I know afnd having seen what I have seen, sleeping with a conservative would be an act of self-disrespect, because I would be allowing someone who knowingly or unknowingly supports my marginalization to use me for their pleasure. That does not mean I don't have conversations with conservatives; it does not mean I refuse to be their friends, or that I don't buy from them or sell to them or work for them. It just means I do not date them.

You talk of "ignorance of the dynamic"; you DO see that you are basically saying "My experience is that all black people are criminals, and well, I just call it as I see it, so for me to allow black people to live in my community, well, that's just an act of self-disrespect".  How can you possibly talk about "marginalization" and being "disrespected" when you lump 50 million people into one pot labeled with one word?  I can certainly see on an individual level, if a man was a misogynist that it would result in the feelings you are describing, but I'm struggling with how it translates to an entire sector of the human population.

To each their own, though.  No one can tell anyone else who to date.   I know for me, right after my divorce I was thisclose to making an advance at a close friend whose ideology is about 180 degrees from my own, and but for her being 2500 miles away and married (to someone else) I would have.  It would not have been an issue for either of us because we respected the person enough to trust them with our ideas.   

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Because I am a marginalized person, I feel that when I say conservative ideologies are valid, I am allowing my own right to be treated as a human being with dignity to be a topic of debate. And this includes libertarianism, as well-meaning as some libertarians are, because by separating the economic from the social, they are ignoring all of the ways the economy is used to enforce people's marginalization. This ultimately means that when I sleep with a conservative, I treat myself as less than human, and when I don't, I treat myself as being on the same level as them.

This is a complicated statement, so bear with me, but on the simplest of levels, you are marginalized because you allow yourself to feel marginalized, not because of some conservatives' ideals.   I'm not at all hoping to change your mind - my experience is that once you demonize the "other side" there is no going back - but it is clear this goes beyond political ideologies.   And here is something that you might consider:   people tend to look at the world through their own lenses.  This can be problematic, because if the other person isn't wearing your lenses there is a strong possibility of disconnect.   You've said you don't separate economic from social.   And then you said that the conservative/libertarian mindset is one that results in your marginalization because of that "non-separation".  While I understand (well) the law of unintended consequences, it is worth exploring that if the "conservative" (or whoever) doesn't see the world in the same way you do - meaning, DOES separate the social and the economic, and can articulate policies that impact one with minimal impact to the other - perhaps there is room to have the difference in ideology without the feelings of marginalization and disrespect that you feel. 

I offer this with the best of intentions.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #683 on: September 15, 2015, 05:57:56 PM »
Dang cram, 7 dates already in a month? She must be cool.

I find "Jackie" to be intriguing (quotes cuz I mean her general approach to dating, like all the Jackie's out there). Hearing about people being so open to certain types of relationships has had me wondering. I feel like I've been open to what types of people I try to meet, but mostly am meeting people that are generally similar. Yeah, I'd like to find something serious, but am open to meeting someone cool that wants to have a good time. And that doesn't necessarily mean sex. I've been talking to someone that is a little more social than I am, and likes to go out and have some fun. I need to branch out a little, so I thought I would give it a shot. We had lunch, and while she's cool/nice, she's not really my type. She happened to say that she doesn't hook up with guys unless she's in an exclusive relationship. Of course I respect that. But, I feel like my overall perception of the situation changed with that being said. I guess I just wasn't into it.

So if a profile seems inauthentic, is that usually the case? I messaged someone, and got a reply that was longer than her profile. It included all sorts of weird info, including birthday. The first paragraph was kinda broken, but that could be modern autocorrect bs. She didn't answer any of my questions. Let's see what's up...

As for the politics thing, it would be tough if certain specific ideas weren't shared. I've never appreciated political labels as it is, so comes down the specific ideas. Basically what cram said. It's not always a deal breaker.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #684 on: September 15, 2015, 06:14:48 PM »
7 dates does seem like a lot especially considering I've traveled to Amsterdam,Frankfurt,and Washington DC within that month, but the girl is awesome and totally worth my time.  I have no problem sacrificing sleep or other activities for someone I really like and enjoy being around.  I am also fairly aggressive about spending time together when getting to know someone, I do not like endless texting, let's get face to face and continue doing that if things are going well.

As for online profiles, I put little stock into them once I start talking to someone.  Im not going to reach out to someone who doesn't have an interesting profile, but you have to realize that in a way it's like a resume. Not detailing your history, but giving a brief overview of yourself and sort of an advertisement for yourself.  It's not going to encompass everything.  Now if I met someone and realized they aren't at all who their profile says they are then I will have some serious doubts as to whether I would move forward.

A girl who won't hook up unless exclusive is something I would respect, but I can see why you are turned off.  I don't think I could be exclusive with someone if we didn't hook up before hand.  That's too important to me, but to each their own.

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #685 on: September 15, 2015, 07:32:11 PM »
This is a complicated statement, so bear with me, but on the simplest of levels, you are marginalized because you allow yourself to feel marginalized

I can't even.

The comments you are making about me marginalizing you are not new to me. They seem like a combination of the following:
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-entitlement/ (section "But I'm Not Like That! Stop Stereotyping!") and
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-personal-attacks/ (section "You're As Bad As They Are!")

I have two responses:
https://www.kctv5.com/story/29806858/transgender-woman-killed-after-being-run-over-multiple-times
https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/barnsley-teen-burned-to-death-on-his-18th-birthday-1-5521116

Did Tamara Dominguez (the woman in the first story) allow herself to be marginalized by accepting a ride from the person who went on to murder her? Tell me, who should I get into cars with?

Until things like this start happening to conservatives, you have no right to call yourselves marginalized. Period.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 04:52:54 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #686 on: September 15, 2015, 11:10:59 PM »
When I am wondering about something, I usually research it.

 :\

Then perhaps you should research delusions of grandeur and condescension.

Can we just talk about dating? Christ.

almost as relevant as whether Jackie takes it to the next level or not on the next date.  :)   

Totally not as relevant as that.  I am at the edge of my seat waiting for the next update like a reality tv show except actually good and real.  :lol

Yeah, okay.  You're right.  I didn't want to appear over-eager.  :)

 :lol

I will let you guys know tomorrow... or more likely Thursday if all goes well :eyebrows:

I also made another date with the lady for next Sunday. Dinner and a movie- True Romance, which I've never seen.

So if a profile seems inauthentic, is that usually the case? I messaged someone, and got a reply that was longer than her profile. It included all sorts of weird info, including birthday. The first paragraph was kinda broken, but that could be modern autocorrect bs. She didn't answer any of my questions. Let's see what's up...


That is a bit weird. I would proceed with caution. I generally expect somebody to have a decent profile (and to send me a decent message vs. just "sup gurl"). If they don't, it seems like they don't give a shit. Or are a robot or something.

7 dates does seem like a lot especially considering I've traveled to Amsterdam,Frankfurt,and Washington DC within that month, but the girl is awesome and totally worth my time.  I have no problem sacrificing sleep or other activities for someone I really like and enjoy being around.  I am also fairly aggressive about spending time together when getting to know someone, I do not like endless texting, let's get face to face and continue doing that if things are going well.


That's pretty impressive. I will sometimes lose sleep for the sake of good company, but too much of that and s/he will NOT want to be around me  :lol
Oh Jackie, always jumping to the most homoerotic possibility.

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #687 on: September 16, 2015, 04:00:08 AM »
Then perhaps you should research delusions of grandeur

I know what that is; do you know what psychological projection is?

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and condescension.

It is very interesting that you are telling me to research condescension, when the only way it was possible for you to say "I was wondering that myself :lol" would be if you were regarding my opinion with condescension. The difference is that for you, it is OK to condescend to me, because you regard yourself as superior, whereas when I condescend to you, that is not OK, because I am getting above myself.

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Can we just talk about dating? Christ.

That's all I was ever trying to do, until you and someone else started asking condescending questions about my politics. You're not going to save yourself from getting called out on your bullshit by just now suddenly trying to act as if I am the one who hijacked this conversation. If you just wanted to talk about dating, you should have limited your own comments to dating. But you didn't; you wanted to dismiss and laugh about my politics (because my political ideology is about as funny as that really funny joke you told several months ago, when you posted a picture of a cat coming out of your pants immediately after I had posted a picture showing that I was a trans woman who still could not pass well), and now that you are being made uncomfortable by the fact that I actually know what I am talking about, you are trying to play as if you just wanted to talk about dating all along.

https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-intellectualism/

Your sneering opinion of things you know nothing about is perfectly acceptable to you, because the conclusion that you are superior has already been drawn: not just by you but by society itself. But when I react in a way that puts myself on the same level as you, demanding that you look into the things you are treating as ridiculous just like anyone else should have to, you view that as condescension, because I am lowering you from the position that you regard yourself as entitled to.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 04:59:07 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

Offline sylvan

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #688 on: September 16, 2015, 06:53:05 AM »
We get it. Dating, and social life in general, are very different for very different individuals. But, it's nothing new. Forget identifiaction labels, cuz we're all different regardless. If you feel marginalized, that sucks. But, I can't imagine that some people talking about dating on a music forum are interested in perpetuating this nonsense. Not that this discussion is so off topic, but it certainly is not productive. Guess what? Everyone is marginalized and pigeon holed by someone else, daily. Maybe you can find a link on your favorite derailing website about some methodology that I'm using to marginalize you.

Yeah cram, 7 in a month is pretty quick. But I don't mean too quick. You both must be into it.

Jackie's gonna get some  :hat

I got another date setup for Friday. I started talking to her on Monday, and we've messaged a bunch. Super cool, we've got some overlapping interests, but she's 24, and I'm 31. I've been seeing younger women, but not 24. I don't think the age difference is a problem, but I'm hoping there's not a generational gap. But, she seems mature and I "identify" as younger than 31. We're gonna try and do some sort of game night somewhere, like trivia or cards against humanity. And then maybe a daytime hike with another on Saturday. Which would make 4 dates with 3 different women in a week. It's weird, as I had not been on a date until 4 months ago. Makes me think my 20s could have been different, but you can't go back, ya know.

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #689 on: September 16, 2015, 07:08:13 AM »
We get it.

Clearly you don't. The fact that you don't get it is the most glaringly obvious thing going on. If you got it, you would not spend the rest of your post trying to deny it.

Quote
If you feel marginalized, that sucks.

I think that is about the most backhanded expression of false empathy that anyone can possibly make. I am not sure that a more viciously ironic statement exists in the entire English language.

Quote
But, I can't imagine that some people talking about dating on a music forum are interested in perpetuating this nonsense.

Whether you can imagine it or not, and regardless of whether you want to do it, you are perpetuating it right now. There is no more perfect demonstrator of your privilege and my marginalization than the derisiveness with which you treat my marginalization, your own role in it, and the website I am using to explain to you what you are doing.

Simply by continuing to argue this with me, you are straying far away from the topic of dating into the topic that I did not bring up: the validity of my political values. So it's clear you are not just interested in talking about dating; you are interested in deriding me and my ideology. The topic of the thread is leverage that you are using to further push me down, and ignores the fact that I am not the person who took the thread off topic to begin with.

Quote
Not that this discussion is so off topic, but it certainly is not productive. Guess what? Everyone is marginalized and pigeon holed by someone else, daily. Maybe you can find a link on your favorite derailing website about some methodology that I'm using to marginalize you.

Yes, in fact, they came immediately to mind.

https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-emotion/ (everything on this page)
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-intellectualism/ (Section "You’re Interrogating From The Wrong Perspective")
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-entitlement/ (Section "But That Happens To Me Too!")
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-personal-attacks/ (Section "You Just Enjoy Being Offended")
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 07:32:37 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #690 on: September 16, 2015, 07:26:12 AM »
7 dates does seem like a lot especially considering I've traveled to Amsterdam,Frankfurt,and Washington DC within that month, but the girl is awesome and totally worth my time.  I have no problem sacrificing sleep or other activities for someone I really like and enjoy being around.  I am also fairly aggressive about spending time together when getting to know someone, I do not like endless texting, let's get face to face and continue doing that if things are going well.

As for online profiles, I put little stock into them once I start talking to someone.  Im not going to reach out to someone who doesn't have an interesting profile, but you have to realize that in a way it's like a resume. Not detailing your history, but giving a brief overview of yourself and sort of an advertisement for yourself.  It's not going to encompass everything.  Now if I met someone and realized they aren't at all who their profile says they are then I will have some serious doubts as to whether I would move forward.

A girl who won't hook up unless exclusive is something I would respect, but I can see why you are turned off.  I don't think I could be exclusive with someone if we didn't hook up before hand.  That's too important to me, but to each their own.

I think the problem for me with online profiles is twofold:  one, they aren't usually a deep reflection of the person, they are a want ad, and two (and related) they are static, not dynamic.   None of the things we're talking about, including politics, are one-dimensional.  I love a woman who is open and enthusiastic about sex, but not when we're at the dinner table with my parents, you know?  So as far as snapshots go, they are a moment in time, but...

I know for me, and I've said this before, I just talk to people.   At the first conversation, it's an open book.  Black, white, young old, tall, short, hot, not, just engage.  What's the worst that happens?  She tells you to fuck off, and you're no worse than when you started.  Middle of the road, you have a new friend.   Best case, you're knocking boots by sunrise.    I'm fascinated by people, and I've found that every person - EVERY person - has a story.  Some are sad, some are fun, some are boring, some are fascinating, but you don't know unless you play.   I feel like we (and I speak of myself here as well) make our own ruts.   Have you ever just walked into a strange restaurant to have dinner as opposed to going to the "corner deli" for the 100th time?  Ever just start talking to the person looking at the CDs at Walmart?   Ever just go to a concert by yourself?   Nothing happened, because I was already involved (though not yet engaged), but I went to see Extreme on a lark at the local casino, ended up moving down to better seats, started talking to two girls there, one bolted to try to get backstage (???) and I ended up chatting with the other; we both talked about our partners at length, yet at the end of the show, she clearly invited me to the bar in the casino for a drink.  I don't know what - if anything - would have happened, but it's a start. 

This is going to sound weird, but I also don't take anything at face value, at least at first blush.   Not suggesting this is the case, but using the "I don't suck face unless I'm in a committed relationship" as example, that could be said for many reasons, and only one is that it is a hard and fast rule.  I AM IN NO WAY SAYING "NO MEANS YES" OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.  I act on it as if it was true, but everything takes verification on the ground.  Especially as one gets a little more world weary (read into that what you will) I find that people want to FEEL respected more than just about anything, and part of that is that their partner is putting in the effort.  My experience on Match in particular is that most of the profiles talk about "committed relationships", "no more games", "looking for nice guy", yadda yadda yadda, but the reality is far more complicated than that. 

Offline sylvan

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #691 on: September 16, 2015, 07:38:47 AM »
I know for me, and I've said this before, I just talk to people.   At the first conversation, it's an open book.  Black, white, young old, tall, short, hot, not, just engage.  What's the worst that happens?  She tells you to fuck off, and you're no worse than when you started.  Middle of the road, you have a new friend.   Best case, you're knocking boots by sunrise.    I'm fascinated by people, and I've found that every person - EVERY person - has a story.  Some are sad, some are fun, some are boring, some are fascinating, but you don't know unless you play.   I feel like we (and I speak of myself here as well) make our own ruts.   Have you ever just walked into a strange restaurant to have dinner as opposed to going to the "corner deli" for the 100th time?  Ever just start talking to the person looking at the CDs at Walmart?   Ever just go to a concert by yourself?   Nothing happened, because I was already involved (though not yet engaged), but I went to see Extreme on a lark at the local casino, ended up moving down to better seats, started talking to two girls there, one bolted to try to get backstage (???) and I ended up chatting with the other; we both talked about our partners at length, yet at the end of the show, she clearly invited me to the bar in the casino for a drink.  I don't know what - if anything - would have happened, but it's a start. 

I think this is something we're all told at some point, especially if we can't figure it out for ourselves, for whatever reason. But, all the details matter. Do you think your interaction at the concert would have been different if you were single? Maybe your mentaliity would have been different if you weren't already in a comfortable relationship.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #692 on: September 16, 2015, 07:39:19 AM »
I know for me, and I've said this before, I just talk to people.   At the first conversation, it's an open book.  Black, white, young old, tall, short, hot, not, just engage.  What's the worst that happens?  She tells you to fuck off, and you're no worse than when you started.  Middle of the road, you have a new friend.   Best case, you're knocking boots by sunrise.    I'm fascinated by people, and I've found that every person - EVERY person - has a story.  Some are sad, some are fun, some are boring, some are fascinating, but you don't know unless you play.   I feel like we (and I speak of myself here as well) make our own ruts.   Have you ever just walked into a strange restaurant to have dinner as opposed to going to the "corner deli" for the 100th time?  Ever just start talking to the person looking at the CDs at Walmart?   Ever just go to a concert by yourself?   

yes to all those, and good points.  I lived most of my life never stepping outside my comfort shell and it wasn't until I broke out of it that I started feeling like I was living my life.  However, I have yet to meet an awesome girl this way.  I still find it very difficult to just start talking to a female without a few drinks in me to take the edge off, as sad as that sounds. 


My experience on Match in particular is that most of the profiles talk about "committed relationships", "no more games", "looking for nice guy", yadda yadda yadda, but the reality is far more complicated than that.

Totally.  Never used match, but okcupid it's in almost every females profile and I think it's BS for many of them as I've met plenty who are just interested in sex yet said they want something real or whatever. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #693 on: September 16, 2015, 07:56:00 AM »
This is a complicated statement, so bear with me, but on the simplest of levels, you are marginalized because you allow yourself to feel marginalized

I can't even.

The comments you are making about me marginalizing you are not new to me. They seem like a combination of the following:
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-entitlement/ (section "But I'm Not Like That! Stop Stereotyping!") and
https://www.derailingfordummies.com/derail-using-personal-attacks/ (section "You're As Bad As They Are!")

I have two responses:
https://www.kctv5.com/story/29806858/transgender-woman-killed-after-being-run-over-multiple-times
https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/barnsley-teen-burned-to-death-on-his-18th-birthday-1-5521116

Did Tamara Dominguez (the woman in the first story) allow herself to be marginalized by accepting a ride from the person who went on to murder her? Tell me, who should I get into cars with?

Until things like this start happening to conservatives, you have no right to call yourselves marginalized. Period.

Look, not that I care much about whether others are bored (they can skip the posts just as easily as read them), but here's the one point I'll leave you with:

Life experiences happen to PEOPLE, not "liberals" or "conservatives".  Marginalization happens to PEOPLE, not "liberals" or "conservatives".  The genome doesn't say "whoa, we're going to be liberal when we grow up, so let's be GAY!"  It doesn't work that way.  My father - handicapped for most of his life, and conservative - didn't get to opt out when he was told at job interviews "yeah, well, we were looking for someone a little more... healthier".   

I don't need quotes and articles and cites to know how I feel.  I refuse to let someone else determine how or what I feel.  That doesn't mean I fight them, it doesn't mean I only date people that "make me feel safe", it doesn't mean I ignore them, it doesn't mean I don't compromise, but I take ownership for what happens to me, good and bad. 

I've not been condescending to you, I've been nothing but respectful.   That I didn't buy into your philosophy or tell you what you want to hear doesn't mean it's disrespectful.  I wish you nothing but the best, I really do.   But here's the thing:  you've been nothing BUT disrespectful to me, to my way of thinking and to the ideals I hold true, but rather than feel "marginalized" at your blanket rejection of anything that doesn't agree with your way of thinking, I accept it for what it is, another human being with thoughts and feelings (go figure).  Perhaps next time you might want to think about that when you're doing your own marginalizing. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #694 on: September 16, 2015, 08:01:19 AM »
I know for me, and I've said this before, I just talk to people.   At the first conversation, it's an open book.  Black, white, young old, tall, short, hot, not, just engage.  What's the worst that happens?  She tells you to fuck off, and you're no worse than when you started.  Middle of the road, you have a new friend.   Best case, you're knocking boots by sunrise.    I'm fascinated by people, and I've found that every person - EVERY person - has a story.  Some are sad, some are fun, some are boring, some are fascinating, but you don't know unless you play.   I feel like we (and I speak of myself here as well) make our own ruts.   Have you ever just walked into a strange restaurant to have dinner as opposed to going to the "corner deli" for the 100th time?  Ever just start talking to the person looking at the CDs at Walmart?   Ever just go to a concert by yourself?   Nothing happened, because I was already involved (though not yet engaged), but I went to see Extreme on a lark at the local casino, ended up moving down to better seats, started talking to two girls there, one bolted to try to get backstage (???) and I ended up chatting with the other; we both talked about our partners at length, yet at the end of the show, she clearly invited me to the bar in the casino for a drink.  I don't know what - if anything - would have happened, but it's a start. 

I think this is something we're all told at some point, especially if we can't figure it out for ourselves, for whatever reason. But, all the details matter. Do you think your interaction at the concert would have been different if you were single? Maybe your mentaliity would have been different if you weren't already in a comfortable relationship.

That's a PHENOMENAL question, and I think about that.  I don't know, to be honest.  If it's different, it's subconscious, but that's not to dismiss the point.  Though I will say this (and again, this isn't anything I've not said here before), immediately after my divorce I would go to my local bar and sit at the end of the bar and do crossword puzzles, and still talk to anyone who came by, and at that point I was painfully single.  But it was a relatively safe environment.   I don't know.  I do know it is a "muscle" though; you force yourself at first, and it becomes easier.  And not to sound fake or calculated, but it becomes easier because it's different people, so you can use the same opening if you need to. :)

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #695 on: September 16, 2015, 08:11:58 AM »
Life experiences happen to PEOPLE, not "liberals" or "conservatives".  Marginalization happens to PEOPLE, not "liberals" or "conservatives".  The genome doesn't say "whoa, we're going to be liberal when we grow up, so let's be GAY!"  It doesn't work that way.  My father - handicapped for most of his life, and conservative - didn't get to opt out when he was told at job interviews "yeah, well, we were looking for someone a little more... healthier".

You see, that's the point I was trying to get at from the beginning. No one is marginalized for being conservative, or for being liberal for that matter. Liberalism and conservatism are political ideologies, and unfortunately we live in a time where people hold their political philosophies so dearly that they believe they are not open to criticism.

I am aware that there are conservatives marginalized for any number of reasons: disability, race, poverty, sexuality, gender identity... to me this is doubly sad. It's sad because they are marginalized, and even more sad because they have bought into the very dynamic that others them, and very often pass that dynamic down to other marginalized people within their same demographic. They deserve compassion like everyone else. Everyone deserves compassion.

But who you date is another story. To me, the political is not a private matter; it is something that affects human beings. I was homeless earlier this year, and it was very difficult for me to find good services where I felt safe that would help me get back on my feet, because I am a trans woman and at the time, I did not pass very well. Private charity did not give a fuck about me. Public charity did not give a fuck about me. People who were straight and not trans had, and continue to have, a much easier time getting back on their feet. While homeless I worked in the Capitol, being paid less than minimum wage under the table by the people who run this country, but was not allowed to wait all night at Union Station before work, even if I bought food or a drink. I was sexually assaulted by a restaurant owner who pretended he was trying to help my situation, inviting me into his home under the pretense that he was going to give me a job and a place to stay. Fairly soon after I started getting things back together, I learned that the Republican Congress had just cut funding for helping homeless LGBT people. Funding that, as far as I could see, was already not nearly enough. This is something very personal to me; it's not Lincoln-Douglas Debate, it's people's lives.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 09:31:24 AM by Sub Luna Vitrea »

Offline sylvan

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #696 on: September 16, 2015, 10:35:54 AM »
Quote
I think we are Looking for the same things but mine in a man, Just that i am Looking for a nice, Honest, Kind and Caring man, a man that will Love and be with me for the Rest of my Life...I am looking for a man, who has a great desire to create his own family. He should be kind, honest, and sincere. I’m looking for a man who will stay his family on the first place and will do everything for its happiness. He should understand family isn’t a game and creation of it is a serious step for both partners. I’m looking for a man who’ll fall in love with me and make me happy. I can promise I’ll do everything for his happiness too,..

Am not looking for someone to date but someone to spend the of my life with,All i need from you is just being sincere to me,make me feel secured,appreciate,love,care and being understanding,All my life has been engolfed with misery and loneliness,i watch my life layed wide spread in front of me and didn't know what to do with it,my life has been so boring and hope with someone who is ready to Love me for who i am now it's gonna change for the best

I had to put this up. Is this for real? Also, keep in mind, this person's pics show a hard 10. Think blonde Dallas Cowboy cheerleader. No man with working eyes would not look twice. It's the combination of that fact, coupled with the broken language and stories of misery and loneliness that seem way off. I initially expressed my thoughts about the authenticity of the profile, and I got a "Have a nice day" reply. I decided to try and get the convo back on track cuz I'm, at best, curious. This person asked what I was looking for, so I asked the same. This is what I got. I feel like one of those people trying to keep it going with the Nigerian scammer.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #697 on: September 16, 2015, 10:47:00 AM »
Wow, that's an awful lot of "I am looking for a man..."

I will say, I have yet to deal with anyone on okcupid that I had to question if they were real.

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #698 on: September 16, 2015, 10:51:48 AM »
I have a date Friday with the college student... going to a vegan restaurant for lunch and coffee :) Actually she may have graduated and hasn't updated her profile, I'm not sure.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Lonely Hearts Club Thread v. The Strong Grip
« Reply #699 on: September 16, 2015, 10:53:17 AM »
I have a date Friday with the college student... going to a vegan restaurant for lunch and coffee :) Actually she may have graduated and hasn't updated her profile, I'm not sure.

Nice, I guess you will find out soon enough.  Have fun!