The Official DTF Best of the Epics- Final Results, Page 6!!!!!!!!

[King Postwhore]

I tried, but could barely find any so-called "epic" that I really liked. I like plenty of 14-18 minutes songs, but pretty much everything I've heard in rock music above 20 minutes long is just some bunch of songs badly put together with no sense of form (and even if I will probably get insulted for that, I don't think the Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull classic "epics" are that well written, most of the time it's just suites of songs or song parts loosely connected together, not anything I would consider large forms). Plus it seems to be a neo-prog tradition, a genre I think is terrible.
Let's start the hate.

   But seriously, I get that some don't like long songs but it's not just one genre of prog.

[Orbert]

I don't actually know what "neo-prog" means, but it sounds like some newer version of old-school prog.  But that can't be right because old-school prog has been doing rock epics since the 60's and 70's, so it's definitely not anything new.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Neo prog is basically modern bands who play in the style of Yes/Genesis etc.

[Orbert]

Hmm, so I guess I still don't agree.

[hefdaddy42]

Marillion, Pendragon and IQ are considered neo-prog.

[Orbert]

I like Marillion.  Pendragon is okay, and I don't know if I've ever heard any IQ.  But it was the statement "it seems to be a neo-prog tradition" that I disagree with.  Epics have been around forever.

[Jaq]

Given that neo-prog's big heyday as a term was the early to mid 80s, the argument gets even funnier 

[Mosh]

I like Marillion.  Pendragon is okay, and I don't know if I've ever heard any IQ.  But it was the statement "it seems to be a neo-prog tradition" that I disagree with.  Epics have been around forever.

I get where you're coming from and I certainly agree, but I think certain neo-prog bands (I'm thinking Neal Morse, Flower Kings, that sorta thing) kinda force the epic. Like, it's almost obligatory that you'll hear one on any given album by these artists. Often times they're just a bunch of smaller songs strung together. It's more special with bands like Yes and Genesis. Genesis only did it once and even Yes and ELP didn't do it too many times. At least that's the way I see it.

Not a slight against Neal Morse of TFK though, love both, just the first that spring to mind with this sort of thing.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, but neither Neal Morse nor the Flower Kings fit under the neo-prog label.  That was attributed to British bands in the early 80s.

They are certainly more current prog rock acts, but neo-prog is a specific term. 

And Orbert is right, epic-length songs go back to the original prog artists.

[TioJorge]

1. Dream Theater - A Change of Seasons
2. Steven Wilson - Raider II
3. Porcupine Tree - The Sky Moves Sideways
4. Coheed and Cambria - The End Complete
5. LTE - Three Minute Warning

^ Also apologies if this was already discussed and just discount it and I won't make a fuss, but I wasn't sure if TSMS/TEC/TMW are acceptable. Far too tired to go back and check.

Anyway, I don't listen to epics much anymore but these are the ones I still do listen to regularly and love oh so much. It's funny, DT is still one of my favorite bands mainly because of this song. It's still got a very special place in my heart, and it just so happens to be a sweeping epic. Same for Coheed, I used to love 'em and I've kind of drifted away from 'em...except for TEC. Either way, good stuff.

[Orbert]

I like Marillion.  Pendragon is okay, and I don't know if I've ever heard any IQ.  But it was the statement "it seems to be a neo-prog tradition" that I disagree with.  Epics have been around forever.

I get where you're coming from and I certainly agree, but I think certain neo-prog bands (I'm thinking Neal Morse, Flower Kings, that sorta thing) kinda force the epic. Like, it's almost obligatory that you'll hear one on any given album by these artists. Often times they're just a bunch of smaller songs strung together. It's more special with bands like Yes and Genesis. Genesis only did it once and even Yes and ELP didn't do it too many times. At least that's the way I see it.

Not a slight against Neal Morse of TFK though, love both, just the first that spring to mind with this sort of thing.

There are certain things that seem to crop up on albums by prog bands a lot, and epics are definitely part of that.  There's also multi-part suites (which may or may not be seen as single compositions), opening an album with "Part 1" of a song and closing it with "Part 2", the multi-part suite which spans albums, and of course the concept album.  I think some bands naturally end up doing some or all of these things because they're more adventurous than average, in terms of composition; and I think some bands "force" it.  They didn't realize at some point that what they were writing was too grand to be a regular song; they specifically said "Let's do this because it's so prog".  And sometimes it's really obvious.  It just seems artificial.

Yes has more epics than any band I know, and I love most of their stuff, but their last epic, "Fly From Here" was such an obvious patchwork of pieces put together that it was really embarrassing.  And then we find out later that they'd done exactly what it sounds like; they took a regular song and specifically decided to blow it up into an epic, adding different parts, the obligatory weirdass instrument section, cheesy overture on the front, recap out of nowhere at the end, the whole works.

Not trying to be argumentative, just setting the record straight, but Yes have at least seven epics and as many as ten or more, depending on how you count them.  Some would consider that "too many times". But every one of them, to me, feels quite organic.  No artificial fillers or sweeteners, just great songs that happen to be really long.  Except that last one (cringe).

[Kilgore Trout]

And Orbert is right, epic-length songs go back to the original prog artists.

Did I say the contrary ? I never said it was anything new, I was just saying that nowadays, or even for the last 20 years or even more, "epics" are mostly written by band from the neo-prog genre, or if the term is such a problem, to bands which are openly a continuation or a reenactement of the classic prog music - bands which play "prog" as a codified genre, and are barely progressive in the original sense of the term at all.

[Jaq]

Oh fuck no it's the "prog or progressive" argument in new clothes, RUN. 

If you ask me, coming to a thread about long songs-many of which were written by metal and post-rock acts- to complain about progressive rock's reliance on epics is a bit silly. This isn't a value judgement on epics thread, it's "do you like long songs? Tell us which ones you like best."

In fact, why the bloody hell did you post in a thread about our favorite epics to tell us you didn't like epics? 

[lonestar]

 

[King Postwhore]

And read them as well?!

[Orbert]

And Orbert is right, epic-length songs go back to the original prog artists.

Did I say the contrary ? I never said it was anything new, I was just saying that nowadays, or even for the last 20 years or even more, "epics" are mostly written by band from the neo-prog genre, or if the term is such a problem, to bands which are openly a continuation or a reenactement of the classic prog music - bands which play "prog" as a codified genre, and are barely progressive in the original sense of the term at all.

So nowadays, they're doing things just as they always have?  I'm not sure I'm seeing the point here.  In the past, epics were usually done by prog bands.  Nowadays, it's mostly by neo-prog bands, because they pattern themselves after the original prog bands.  That would make sense.  Or am I missing something?

[bosk1]

I just don't listen to enough bands that do epics.  With the minimum length specified, I can't even do a top 10 if we are only going 1 per band. 

[Dr. DTVT]

^ Also apologies if this was already discussed and just discount it and I won't make a fuss, but I wasn't sure if TSMS/TEC/TMW are acceptable. Far too tired to go back and check.

I can't speak for the PT and C&C songs, but I think Three Minute Warning qualifies, as it was only broken in to tracks for ease of moving through it.  It was basically a one take jam.

[Kilgore Trout]

No, nothing.

[Orbert]

Oh okay.

[hefdaddy42]

All's well that ends well. 

[Kwyjibo]

^ Also apologies if this was already discussed and just discount it and I won't make a fuss, but I wasn't sure if TSMS/TEC/TMW are acceptable. Far too tired to go back and check.

I can't speak for the PT and C&C songs, but I think Three Minute Warning qualifies, as it was only broken in to tracks for ease of moving through it.  It was basically a one take jam.

The Sky Moves Sideways is like Pink Floyd's Crazy Diamond. One Song, divided into two parts, so it should count. Also, on the 2 cd version there is an alternate version combining the two parts into one big epic.

The problem I personally have with Three Minute Warning is not that it's divided into parts, but, that it is in fact a jam and not a composed song. For me an epic means that there is at least some arrangement and some thought on the composition and not just a long improvisation. But that's not for me to decide.

And here is my (not very innovative) list, sadly the minimum length eliminated a lot of my favorite longer songs.

1. Yes - Close To The Edge
2. Dream Theater - Octavarium
3. Extreme - Everything Under The Sun
4. Pink Floyd - Shine On You Crazy Diamond
5. Spock's Beard - The Great Nothing
6. Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells (Part One)
7. Porcupine Tree - The Sky Moves Sideways
8. IQ    - Harvest Of Souls
9. Transatlantic - Duel With The Devil
10. Neal Morse - Seeds Of Gold

[bosk1]

FWIW, I personally don't count it either.

[Orbert]

Same here.  But clearly, different people have different definitions for "epic" and if some people consider it an epic, then cool.

[Dr. DTVT]

All these people putting Harvest of Souls...I understand not wanting to put something from the new album on the list, but I can't believe so many people are choosing it over The Narrow Margin.  Just a thought.

[lonestar]

All these people putting Harvest of Souls...I understand not wanting to put something from the new album on the list, but I can't believe so many people are choosing it over The Narrow Margin.  Just a thought.

My thoughts exactly, I personally would put Harvest at the bottom of IQ's epics.

[jingle.boy]

All these people putting Harvest of Souls...I understand not wanting to put something from the new album on the list, but I can't believe so many people are choosing it over The Narrow Margin.  Just a thought.

My thoughts exactly, I personally would put Harvest at the bottom of IQ's epics.

Tastes:  How do they work?

 

[KevShmev]

I agree that Three Minute Warning is more of a jam than an epic, just like there are tons of great epics that are way shorter than the specified time for this thread.  Hell, I could easily make a list of epic songs under 5 minutes!!

[lonestar]

Under five minutes?? Not when I'm tallying the votes man...

[Jaq]

All these people putting Harvest of Souls...I understand not wanting to put something from the new album on the list, but I can't believe so many people are choosing it over The Narrow Margin.  Just a thought.

Picked it because it's awesome. Plus you got to admire it for the sheer chutzpah of the band saying "ya know what, this is basically a love letter to Supper's Ready" and making it work. Narrow Margin is awesome, but Harvest of Souls wins for me. 

[Kwyjibo]

All these people putting Harvest of Souls...I understand not wanting to put something from the new album on the list, but I can't believe so many people are choosing it over The Narrow Margin.  Just a thought.

Well it was by a narrow margin, I can tell you that.

Sorry had to go there 

[Orbert]

[bosk1]

[hefdaddy42]

lol

[Xenon]

I wonder if Concealing Fate qualifies for this.