Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 180770 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32130
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3675 on: May 11, 2021, 02:45:10 PM »
I just don't get the whole "defund the police" thing. I guess I agree that they don't need military grade gear, but I struggle to see any positives from having no police.

Common misconception. Largely due to "defund the police" being a very horrible way of expressing their actual goals. Defund the police does not mean no police. It means shrinking the police department and making them a more focused aspect of a bigger picture. Had your house broken into? Call a cop. See a guy walking down the street in his undies screaming about Jesus being gay? Call 911 to get a different team of individuals who are more able to handle this than cops. That's an overly simplistic example, but the basic idea is to stop making cops the catchall for anything beyond fires/medical emergencies. Give them a more specific and focused job and then create other departments to handle other things that cops shouldn't be handling in the first place.

Again, most people don't get that with "defund the police" because "defund the police" is a terribly misleading slogan.


Edit: And just my own thoughts....I say do that AND give the police more money. I want ticket quotas to go away. I want them to have whatever physical gear they need to feel safe without feeling they need to shoot someone for itching a mosquito bite. They need full on body armer? Fine if it'll save lives. Whatever helps them stop shooting so many people.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28141
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3676 on: May 11, 2021, 03:26:08 PM »
I think the trouble is, the municipalities themselves aren't equipped to handle that shift.   Sure, you take a police force of 30, make it 20, and add 10 trained social workers.   But who do they report to?  The same dude/chick that is running the show and has 35 years on the job?  I know the guy running the State Police here in CT (actually, he's number two) and he's no more equipped to lead those folk than the cops are to do the job in the first place.   Same with fire; there isn't complicated medical services being delivered through the fire department; it's emergency medical services, again, reporting up through a fire department run by a career admin person.

Hospitals can't foot the bill or carry the water.   I can't speak for any other state, but Connecticut isn't equipped to have that fall under State oversight.   And yet, you need the ability to have one neck to squeeze. 

Add to that that municipalities are squeezed for dough all around and it's a problem that requires a well-thought out, long-term, bipartisan solution.  I'm all for it, by the way, but like the solution in the gun thread, it's going to take a massive readjustment in how we view public services.


EDIT:  To Adami's point, I don't know if it's gear or training or what, but we DO need the police.  The reductions in crime over the past 30 years (as well as the reforms in Australia sometimes, wrongly, attributed to the gun buy-back programs), are largely attributable to advances in policing, including fingerprinting, DNA, communications, and forensic work.  It kinda sucks to be a criminal these days.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 11230
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3677 on: May 11, 2021, 04:28:57 PM »
I third this viewpoint. The entire idea behind “defund the police” in the sense of getting rid of police is a complete fabrication that I’ve never seen anyone ACTUALLY argue for.

But seriously. Think about it. People see a jumper and call the police. The police show up and what do they generally do? Call someone who professionally knows how to talk to jumpers. So why do the police need to be involved in the first place? Aren’t there more important things they could be doing? So call 911 and get the professional out there, skip the middle man, and let the police do police work.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25662
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3678 on: May 11, 2021, 04:40:55 PM »
Does anybody but FOX, ONAN, and NewsMAX really thinks defund means disband? Kaos says they don't need to be buying APCs from the military, and I certainly agree with him. A novel idea would be to take the money they're spending on military surplus grenade launchers and invest it back into the community. That's the defunding people are actually supporting. Eliminating the police is a common misrepresentation of the argument and far too many people are eating it up.

Now, here's a different aspect of that. If the only options are to do away with the cops or to let them go on the way they're going, man, that's a really tough call. In the abstract I view the police as a necessary part of a functioning society. In the current situation I think the police may very well have reached the point where they're more trouble than they're worth. Their dysfunction contributes to society's dysfunction in a very big way. What I can tell you is that when I hear of veteran cops announcing that they'll no longer work because they don't like the way they're being treated, I'm glad to hear it. Fuck'em. There are countless well paying mercenary gigs in the sandbox for people like them. In time they'll be replaced by younger cops with better attitudes, and I'd just as soon they be trained by people with the right mindset for the profession. Not the assholes that get butthurt because their chief didn't stand behind them for needlessly killing some hoodlum.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12343
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3679 on: May 11, 2021, 04:47:54 PM »
I third this viewpoint. The entire idea behind “defund the police” in the sense of getting rid of police is a complete fabrication that I’ve never seen anyone ACTUALLY argue for.

But seriously. Think about it. People see a jumper and call the police. The police show up and what do they generally do? Call someone who professionally knows how to talk to jumpers. So why do the police need to be involved in the first place? Aren’t there more important things they could be doing? So call 911 and get the professional out there, skip the middle man, and let the police do police work.

Isn't it the 911 dispatchers job to send the appropriate professional out to the 911 emergency call?

The dispatch only sends out based on the details the caller gives them. The caller could be telling an entirely different situation, and the dispatcher sends out the wrong person to handle the situation.

My opinion is that we need a mix of both Cops and Social Workers. Mainly the cops will be there if, and only if, the situation escalates to that point. The social worker would also need the training, and the protection, in case it gets to that situation. The Cop would not interfere until that Social Worker gives the Cop the ok to intervene, as situations can and will escalate to the point where the Social Workers life will be in jeopardy.

There also needs to be something done about the Chiefs of Police, as the issues seem to also be from the chiefs with a higher authority than the usual deputies that are out there dealing with people. The way the mindset of a cop is close to how it is in the military with regards to whom answers to whom, and has the final say, is one aspect I find to be something to look into. How this mindset causes those whom see this corruption and wrong in the police force, unable to speak out and do something about those chiefs whom are abusing their power.

I think this Militarized Mindset of how the cops do their job, is more the problem and issue, more so than them actually being able to use Military Grade weapons. It's pretty much the police becoming Militarized, and this is the effect of a Militarized Police Force.


I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25662
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3680 on: May 11, 2021, 05:05:29 PM »
I third this viewpoint. The entire idea behind “defund the police” in the sense of getting rid of police is a complete fabrication that I’ve never seen anyone ACTUALLY argue for.

But seriously. Think about it. People see a jumper and call the police. The police show up and what do they generally do? Call someone who professionally knows how to talk to jumpers. So why do the police need to be involved in the first place? Aren’t there more important things they could be doing? So call 911 and get the professional out there, skip the middle man, and let the police do police work.

Isn't it the 911 dispatchers job to send the appropriate professional out to the 911 emergency call?

The dispatch only sends out based on the details the caller gives them. The caller could be telling an entirely different situation, and the dispatcher sends out the wrong person to handle the situation.

My opinion is that we need a mix of both Cops and Social Workers. Mainly the cops will be there if, and only if, the situation escalates to that point. The social worker would also need the training, and the protection, in case it gets to that situation. The Cop would not interfere until that Social Worker gives the Cop the ok to intervene, as situations can and will escalate to the point where the Social Workers life will be in jeopardy.

There also needs to be something done about the Chiefs of Police, as the issues seem to also be from the chiefs with a higher authority than the usual deputies that are out there dealing with people. The way the mindset of a cop is close to how it is in the military with regards to whom answers to whom, and has the final say, is one aspect I find to be something to look into. How this mindset causes those whom see this corruption and wrong in the police force, unable to speak out and do something about those chiefs whom are abusing their power.

I think this Militarized Mindset of how the cops do their job, is more the problem and issue, more so than them actually being able to use Military Grade weapons. It's pretty much the police becoming Militarized, and this is the effect of a Militarized Police Force.

One place I definitely agree with you is regarding the Chiefs of police, though probably for a very different reason. When the public stumble's across a bodycam video of a cop doing something entirely ridiculous and your solution was business as usual, then you, Mr. chief of police, are the problem. I've been seeing this quite a bit lately. I posted the video of the cop beating the holy hell out of his K9 partner and the chief's position was that they simply needed to institute new training for their K9 officers. If I'm the mayor, or the city manager, or whatever, that chief is gone just as fast as the cop that beat up his dog. And if his cops want to retire in protest, I'd call that a bonus rather than a problem. Basically, I'd like to see a whole lot more accountability for the people actually running the departments.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline chknptpie

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3285
  • Gender: Female
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3681 on: May 11, 2021, 07:24:53 PM »
I third this viewpoint. The entire idea behind “defund the police” in the sense of getting rid of police is a complete fabrication that I’ve never seen anyone ACTUALLY argue for.

But seriously. Think about it. People see a jumper and call the police. The police show up and what do they generally do? Call someone who professionally knows how to talk to jumpers. So why do the police need to be involved in the first place? Aren’t there more important things they could be doing? So call 911 and get the professional out there, skip the middle man, and let the police do police work.

Isn't it the 911 dispatchers job to send the appropriate professional out to the 911 emergency call?

The dispatch only sends out based on the details the caller gives them. The caller could be telling an entirely different situation, and the dispatcher sends out the wrong person to handle the situation.

My opinion is that we need a mix of both Cops and Social Workers. Mainly the cops will be there if, and only if, the situation escalates to that point. The social worker would also need the training, and the protection, in case it gets to that situation. The Cop would not interfere until that Social Worker gives the Cop the ok to intervene, as situations can and will escalate to the point where the Social Workers life will be in jeopardy.

There also needs to be something done about the Chiefs of Police, as the issues seem to also be from the chiefs with a higher authority than the usual deputies that are out there dealing with people. The way the mindset of a cop is close to how it is in the military with regards to whom answers to whom, and has the final say, is one aspect I find to be something to look into. How this mindset causes those whom see this corruption and wrong in the police force, unable to speak out and do something about those chiefs whom are abusing their power.

I think this Militarized Mindset of how the cops do their job, is more the problem and issue, more so than them actually being able to use Military Grade weapons. It's pretty much the police becoming Militarized, and this is the effect of a Militarized Police Force.

RE: Dispatchers

When I did an 8 week experience with our local fire department, I learned that there are standardized response requirements defined for the dispatch - at least here in Maricopa county where we have mutual aid. So when I call 911 for a lit candle that caught some paper on fire on a desk in my neighbors house that no one appears to be home for, 4 fire trucks, a battalion chief, 2 ambulances and 4 cop cars show up. No matter what I told the 911 dispatcher about how small the fire was, thats the required dispatch they send for a fire in a housing district.

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49091
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3682 on: May 11, 2021, 07:44:18 PM »
Are social workers going to have lights and sirens?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 19975
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3683 on: May 11, 2021, 08:26:40 PM »
Are social workers going to have lights and sirens?

Yes...but soft toned ones.

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49091
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3684 on: May 11, 2021, 08:35:44 PM »
Are social workers going to have lights and sirens?

Yes...but soft toned ones.

"Honey, there's a fucking Prius coming up on me with green and yellow lights. Should I move over?"
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3685 on: May 11, 2021, 09:26:44 PM »
"Don't worry babe, get it up to 75MPH and we'll lose 'em."
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12343
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3686 on: May 11, 2021, 10:27:36 PM »
"Don't worry babe, get it up to 75MPH and we'll lose 'em."

"I can't! It's a GEO!!!!"
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12343
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3687 on: May 11, 2021, 10:53:00 PM »
I third this viewpoint. The entire idea behind “defund the police” in the sense of getting rid of police is a complete fabrication that I’ve never seen anyone ACTUALLY argue for.

But seriously. Think about it. People see a jumper and call the police. The police show up and what do they generally do? Call someone who professionally knows how to talk to jumpers. So why do the police need to be involved in the first place? Aren’t there more important things they could be doing? So call 911 and get the professional out there, skip the middle man, and let the police do police work.

Isn't it the 911 dispatchers job to send the appropriate professional out to the 911 emergency call?

The dispatch only sends out based on the details the caller gives them. The caller could be telling an entirely different situation, and the dispatcher sends out the wrong person to handle the situation.

My opinion is that we need a mix of both Cops and Social Workers. Mainly the cops will be there if, and only if, the situation escalates to that point. The social worker would also need the training, and the protection, in case it gets to that situation. The Cop would not interfere until that Social Worker gives the Cop the ok to intervene, as situations can and will escalate to the point where the Social Workers life will be in jeopardy.

There also needs to be something done about the Chiefs of Police, as the issues seem to also be from the chiefs with a higher authority than the usual deputies that are out there dealing with people. The way the mindset of a cop is close to how it is in the military with regards to whom answers to whom, and has the final say, is one aspect I find to be something to look into. How this mindset causes those whom see this corruption and wrong in the police force, unable to speak out and do something about those chiefs whom are abusing their power.

I think this Militarized Mindset of how the cops do their job, is more the problem and issue, more so than them actually being able to use Military Grade weapons. It's pretty much the police becoming Militarized, and this is the effect of a Militarized Police Force.

One place I definitely agree with you is regarding the Chiefs of police, though probably for a very different reason. When the public stumble's across a bodycam video of a cop doing something entirely ridiculous and your solution was business as usual, then you, Mr. chief of police, are the problem. I've been seeing this quite a bit lately. I posted the video of the cop beating the holy hell out of his K9 partner and the chief's position was that they simply needed to institute new training for their K9 officers. If I'm the mayor, or the city manager, or whatever, that chief is gone just as fast as the cop that beat up his dog. And if his cops want to retire in protest, I'd call that a bonus rather than a problem. Basically, I'd like to see a whole lot more accountability for the people actually running the departments.

I see it as...They are the Chief. A Chief should be responsible for those he leads, and the chief should take accountability for the actions of his deputies, because his deputies are a reflection of how the Chief runs his precinct. 

When there is no accountability by the Mayor, city manager, whomever, for how the Chief runs his precinct or department. It's like the Captain abandoning ship, and taking the only life boat, while he leaves his crew to drown. And he ends up running and being captain of a brand new ship.

I third this viewpoint. The entire idea behind “defund the police” in the sense of getting rid of police is a complete fabrication that I’ve never seen anyone ACTUALLY argue for.

But seriously. Think about it. People see a jumper and call the police. The police show up and what do they generally do? Call someone who professionally knows how to talk to jumpers. So why do the police need to be involved in the first place? Aren’t there more important things they could be doing? So call 911 and get the professional out there, skip the middle man, and let the police do police work.

Isn't it the 911 dispatchers job to send the appropriate professional out to the 911 emergency call?

The dispatch only sends out based on the details the caller gives them. The caller could be telling an entirely different situation, and the dispatcher sends out the wrong person to handle the situation.

My opinion is that we need a mix of both Cops and Social Workers. Mainly the cops will be there if, and only if, the situation escalates to that point. The social worker would also need the training, and the protection, in case it gets to that situation. The Cop would not interfere until that Social Worker gives the Cop the ok to intervene, as situations can and will escalate to the point where the Social Workers life will be in jeopardy.

There also needs to be something done about the Chiefs of Police, as the issues seem to also be from the chiefs with a higher authority than the usual deputies that are out there dealing with people. The way the mindset of a cop is close to how it is in the military with regards to whom answers to whom, and has the final say, is one aspect I find to be something to look into. How this mindset causes those whom see this corruption and wrong in the police force, unable to speak out and do something about those chiefs whom are abusing their power.

I think this Militarized Mindset of how the cops do their job, is more the problem and issue, more so than them actually being able to use Military Grade weapons. It's pretty much the police becoming Militarized, and this is the effect of a Militarized Police Force.

RE: Dispatchers

When I did an 8 week experience with our local fire department, I learned that there are standardized response requirements defined for the dispatch - at least here in Maricopa county where we have mutual aid. So when I call 911 for a lit candle that caught some paper on fire on a desk in my neighbors house that no one appears to be home for, 4 fire trucks, a battalion chief, 2 ambulances and 4 cop cars show up. No matter what I told the 911 dispatcher about how small the fire was, thats the required dispatch they send for a fire in a housing district.

That is good information to know.

Here is where you get into the situation of calling 911, and the dispatch sending the cops over because it's the Standardized Response Requirement.

Here, is where you could insert a service worker as one of the requirements for a response. As mental health is an issue of concern, and police do not have the training to deal with these people, the social worker can be sent to analyze the situation and declare whether the suspect is in fact showing indicative actions related to a mental illness, or whether they are exhibiting behavior of an emotional response. Which, they could then try and talk the person down.

It's like, if you are concerned that these people cops deal with are mentally unstable, then sending a social worker in to determine if they are in fact mentally unstable, or have emotions that are making that person have feelings of killing someone, wouldn't hurt to try and have available, if we are concerned with Mentally Unstable people being victims of unnecessary police shootings.



I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 19975
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3688 on: May 12, 2021, 06:57:15 AM »
Are social workers going to have lights and sirens?

Yes...but soft toned ones.

"Honey, there's a fucking Prius coming up on me with green and yellow lights. Should I move over?"

I can seriously see that happening in San Francisco  :lol


Edit-actually green and yellow wouldn't happen in SF, those are Oakland A's colors....
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:13:57 AM by lonestar »

Offline Vmadera00

  • Posts: 1722
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3689 on: May 12, 2021, 07:34:57 AM »
RE: Mental health and police.

There are places that are trying to work on this, getting more social workers (or properly trained police) to respond to mental health situations. Here in NY, even though the pilot program didn't start until this year, it has been active in the neighborhood I work in since 2019.

In the organization I work for, we deal with a lot of homeless and mentally unstable individuals. We have a very good relationship with our local precinct and when the program was being talked about and they were testing it out to see how it would work, we had the chance to try it first. Whenever we called 911, as long as we mentioned "Emotionally disturbed individual", we knew we were getting 2 cops and 1 social worker to the scene. most of the times, things went well and the response was appropriate to the situation. Other times things escalated and the cops needed to get involved.

I don't think there is a one size-fits-all solution to this issue, every community has different needs, but it has to start somewhere and I think NY is doing just that.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28141
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3690 on: May 12, 2021, 12:51:48 PM »
Does anybody but FOX, ONAN, and NewsMAX really thinks defund means disband? Kaos says they don't need to be buying APCs from the military, and I certainly agree with him. A novel idea would be to take the money they're spending on military surplus grenade launchers and invest it back into the community. That's the defunding people are actually supporting. Eliminating the police is a common misrepresentation of the argument and far too many people are eating it up.

This is our discourse today.   No thought in coming up with the phrase (but it's suitably antagonistic to the police, who we're trying to change, so let's go with it!), no thought in responding to the phrase (but it's suitably antagonistic to the protestors, who are asking for the change, so let's go with it!) and here we are with nothing being done.

If it matters, I'm a fan of the underlying concept of "defund the police" even if I'm (very) critical of the messaging that results from both sides.   I'm a "use the correct tool for the job" kind of guy, and this fits with that.

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3691 on: May 20, 2021, 08:43:02 AM »
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/710969

Quote
Abstract: We use the quasi-random assignment of cases to three-judge panels on the US Courts of Appeals to assess the consistency of adjudication of death penalty appeals. We find clear evidence that panels apply different standards depending on whether a majority of the panel was appointed by Democratic or Republican presidents. Unlike previous work on panel effects in the US Courts of Appeals, we show that these effects persist to the end of the process of adjudication. Since the early 1980s, the probability of ultimate execution has been increased for inmates when their first court of appeals case was assigned to a panel with a majority of Republican appointees.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25662
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3692 on: May 20, 2021, 10:27:11 AM »
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/20/998536266/video-withheld-for-2-years-shows-a-black-mans-fatal-arrest-as-he-pleads-for-his-

So here a couple of cops beat and taze a man for a few minutes and leave him to die on the side of the road. Nothing much to discuss about that. Another day in America. We'll get over it. The big problem is that these two cops filed reports saying that he died when he crashed into a tree. Something that was obviously false. The department amended the explanation to say that he died en route to the hospital after struggling with the officers. They buried the video, which has only been leaked 2 years later. They waited a year and a half to launch a formal investigation, and eventually suspended one of the two officers for 50 days without pay for dragging him face down, and for turning off his BWC.

Why weren't these two guys fired on the spot for lying about the nature of his death? You don't get to claim that you were mistaken about the details when you omit three minutes of your own sadism. At first I assumed these were just some Podunk cops out having a fun Friday night, but these guys are Louisiana State Police. We typically like to hold state police to a slightly higher standard. In the end, one of them was arrested for a completely different fatal beatdown, that wouldn't have happened if he'd been fired and/or arrested after the first one simply for lying about the circumstances. The other one died hours after he learned he was going to be fired.

This goes right into a point I've been making of late, which is that we need to start addressing these things from the top down rather than the bottom up. Why didn't the governor fire the head of the LSP as soon as he learned the facts of this case a year ago? Why weren't all of the cops above him in their department and specific troop held to the iron? People are finally starting to recognize that bad apples spoil the bushel. This is an improvement. The next step is to start dealing with the tree, rather than apples.

This system is very, very broken, and as Americans love to do, we're only looking for the simplest solution while avoiding the underlying problems.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8337
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
    • The ANABASIS - Music Making a Difference
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3693 on: May 21, 2021, 02:24:32 PM »
Our police departments are infested with racists.  Cop culture in this country is truly nauseating.  My son has been in law enforcement for more than a decade and he's getting out because of how toxic and pervasive the racism and corruption is.  He lives in Georgia and from what he tells me pretty much every white cop he's worked with down there over the years is a raging racist asshole.  He's just finished his master's degree in Emergency Management and he's got his eye on a career position with FEMA.  I think it's a good move.  Policing is broken.  Our criminal justice system is broken.  Our prison system is broken.  It's one of the biggest societal challenges of our times.  We have to fix policing and criminal justice in America. 


13.4% of the United States population is black.
34% of the male prison population is black.
47% of the female prison population is black.
42% of death row inmates are black. 


Our criminal justice system is a sick racist joke.




Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10447
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3694 on: May 21, 2021, 09:03:01 PM »
I am not saying this to single any group out or to point fingers. Remember I have been on the wrong aisle in the courtroom a couple times myself. This speaks to a larger, cultural, societal problem.

Also just saw this:

https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-inspector-general-urges-elimination-of-routine-traffic-stops-by-police

Once you get past the SOCIAL JUSTICE!/EQUITY! aspect, there is an idea in there worth discussing. 

Quote
Seattle police should strongly consider eliminating traffic stops for minor, civil and non-dangerous violations, the city's inspector general wrote this week in a letter to Seattle Police Chief Adrian Diaz.

In her letter to Diaz, Judge wrote that traffic stops should be limited to offenses that create a danger to the public, such as reckless driving, DUI, school zone violations, or other similar circumstances.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 10:17:19 PM by Cool Chris »
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25662
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3695 on: May 22, 2021, 11:34:56 AM »
I am not saying this to single any group out or to point fingers. Remember I have been on the wrong aisle in the courtroom a couple times myself. This speaks to a larger, cultural, societal problem.

Also just saw this:

https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-inspector-general-urges-elimination-of-routine-traffic-stops-by-police

Once you get past the SOCIAL JUSTICE!/EQUITY! aspect, there is an idea in there worth discussing. 

Quote
Seattle police should strongly consider eliminating traffic stops for minor, civil and non-dangerous violations, the city's inspector general wrote this week in a letter to Seattle Police Chief Adrian Diaz.

In her letter to Diaz, Judge wrote that traffic stops should be limited to offenses that create a danger to the public, such as reckless driving, DUI, school zone violations, or other similar circumstances.
I've actually got no problem with routine traffic stops, IF they're executed for the stated purpose. Pretextual stops are the problem. It's pulling people over for silly shit just so you can manufacture PC to toss their car that causes the problem. Unless they're specifically looking to write tickets for revenue, which is rare nowadays, almost all of those minor infection stops are performed on the assumption that you're a criminal. Do away with fishing expeditions and you take a big step towards reintegrating the police into a lawful society.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8337
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
    • The ANABASIS - Music Making a Difference
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3696 on: May 23, 2021, 06:00:04 AM »
I think the problem is you cannot have the police policing themselves because they've shown again and again and again and again that they cannot be trusted.  Neither can politicians.  The police should answer to the communities they are sworn to protect and no one else.  We need citizen review boards that are made up of the citizens in the communities in which the police are operating. 




Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28141
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3697 on: May 24, 2021, 01:15:06 PM »
I'm all for eliminating routine stops; would that be retroactive?   That'd be like a mini-stimulus check for the Stadler household.

In all seriousness, though, it's sort of a logical conundrum at best.   The more serious the infraction, the more likely the stop will still be conducted, and the more likely the suspect will be inclined to react with force (i.e. want to avoid arrest).  So it's not going to help the well-being of the cop.  I suppose it will drop the number of fishing expeditions, to El Barto's point, but it doesn't necessarily remove/mitigate the problem of race.   The perception is still going to be if a white person is pulled, it's for cause, and if a minority is pulled, it's because of racism. 

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 19975
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3698 on: May 24, 2021, 03:06:42 PM »
I'm all for eliminating routine stops; would that be retroactive?   That'd be like a mini-stimulus check for the Stadler household.


Right? It'd knock a good 75/month off my insurance.

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8337
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
    • The ANABASIS - Music Making a Difference
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3699 on: May 24, 2021, 03:11:54 PM »
I'm all for eliminating routine stops; would that be retroactive?   That'd be like a mini-stimulus check for the Stadler household.

In all seriousness, though, it's sort of a logical conundrum at best.   The more serious the infraction, the more likely the stop will still be conducted, and the more likely the suspect will be inclined to react with force (i.e. want to avoid arrest).  So it's not going to help the well-being of the cop.  I suppose it will drop the number of fishing expeditions, to El Barto's point, but it doesn't necessarily remove/mitigate the problem of race.   The perception is still going to be if a white person is pulled, it's for cause, and if a minority is pulled, it's because of racism.


There are ways to mitigate this, I think.  In Boston, for example, they are now beginning to make an effort to partner up white and black cops together in the same patrol unit, instead of having pairs of white partners and pairs of black partners, they are setting up more patrols with mixed race teams because it provides at least a small amount of credibility to most traffic stops.  The thinking being that a mixed race patrol is much less likely to conduct a purely race-driven/profiling-driven traffic stop.   My brother-in-law's brother is (or was, I guess) on the force in Boston and they just broke him and his partner of 17 years up so they could split them into two mixed-race units.  He might be the most racist person I know.  He lasted one week and decided to put in his papers when they refused to partner him up with another white cop.   3 more years for a full pension.  3 more years and he would take home 80% of his salary until he dies, but because he refuses to partner up with a black rookie and is quitting at 17 years he's only going to get 65%.  What a fucking moron.



Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49091
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3700 on: June 03, 2021, 04:47:54 PM »
So I am posting this under the Racism in the thread title..

By now all of you have heard about the kid that threw a water bottle at Kyrie the other night.

He was arraigned yesterday.

https://news.yahoo.com/cole-buckley-celtics-fan-accused-211100370.html

District Attorney RACHAEL ROLLINS: "There is a growing disturbing trend, in the NBA in particular, and is not lost on me that the NBA is overwhelmingly Black men, where we have fans, who are overwhelmingly white men, who believe that they can engage in this type of behavior."

I heard those comments this morning and was sick. What fucking pandering! So now this was a racial issue? Really?
I'm sorry, but that's crying wolf. That demeans actual racial situations. But gotta get the vote next election I guess. Fucking sickening.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32130
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3701 on: June 03, 2021, 05:04:46 PM »
I hate discussing racism here because there seems to be a belief that racism is only "I hate XYZ race and want to hurt them." Is the dude right? I have no idea. Maybe? Maybe not? Because the idea itself is totally legit. Might not apply to this specific case, but he's not wrong when you make one group (largely black) entertainers to another group (mostly white) it can very easily result in a level of dehumanization. I doubt I'll post much after this on the subject, but my main point is that while he may or may not be wrong about this specific case, his idea has a lot of merit and deserves to be examined.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3702 on: June 03, 2021, 07:32:14 PM »
I hate discussing racism here because there seems to be a belief that racism is only "I hate XYZ race and want to hurt them." Is the dude right? I have no idea. Maybe? Maybe not? Because the idea itself is totally legit. Might not apply to this specific case, but he's not wrong when you make one group (largely black) entertainers to another group (mostly white) it can very easily result in a level of dehumanization. I doubt I'll post much after this on the subject, but my main point is that while he may or may not be wrong about this specific case, his idea has a lot of merit and deserves to be examined.

agreed 100% , we need to get more comfortable discussing racism on this level. 

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49091
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3703 on: June 03, 2021, 07:37:08 PM »
I hate discussing racism here because there seems to be a belief that racism is only "I hate XYZ race and want to hurt them." Is the dude right? I have no idea. Maybe? Maybe not? Because the idea itself is totally legit. Might not apply to this specific case, but he's not wrong when you make one group (largely black) entertainers to another group (mostly white) it can very easily result in a level of dehumanization. I doubt I'll post much after this on the subject, but my main point is that while he may or may not be wrong about this specific case, his idea has a lot of merit and deserves to be examined.

agreed 100% , we need to get more comfortable discussing racism on this level.

What are you talking about? If I'm rude to a black guy, it's not simply because I was rude, but I'm a rude racist? You serious?


The DA took a shot that didn't need to be taken. This wasn't a hate crime. People constantly calling racism at every turn, even when it's not are going to create greater divides. Seems the DA was pandering to her constituency.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12343
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3704 on: June 03, 2021, 08:22:16 PM »
So I am posting this under the Racism in the thread title..

By now all of you have heard about the kid that threw a water bottle at Kyrie the other night.

He was arraigned yesterday.

https://news.yahoo.com/cole-buckley-celtics-fan-accused-211100370.html

District Attorney RACHAEL ROLLINS: "There is a growing disturbing trend, in the NBA in particular, and is not lost on me that the NBA is overwhelmingly Black men, where we have fans, who are overwhelmingly white men, who believe that they can engage in this type of behavior."

I heard those comments this morning and was sick. What fucking pandering! So now this was a racial issue? Really?
I'm sorry, but that's crying wolf. That demeans actual racial situations. But gotta get the vote next election I guess. Fucking sickening.


What is she implying here, that Black Men do not watch NBA and it's just all White Men, and that only the White Men exhibit this type of behavior?

What she said is just a big over-reach to try and create something that isn't there.

That guy is just a college kid who made a stupid and unwise choice to throw a water-bottle at a player. And according to that article, he may end up being suspended from the College for violating it's student code. So, it's his own damn fault for being stupid and making this decision that will likely get him suspended from school.

It's like they're treating "White Men who exhibit this type of behavior" as little boys who can't control their behavior so they need Mommy Dearest to tell them "You need to behave".... :rollin

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Online kingshmegland

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 48231
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3705 on: June 03, 2021, 09:20:56 PM »
Black men watch the NBA. That's ridiculous to say that.   The 21 year old idiot was wearing a Kevin Garnett Jersey.   

Kyrie threw this racism bomb right before they traveled to Boston.  Add that other instances happened in other cities.  (Spitting and popcorn).

Kyrie flamed the fire whee there was none. Most do not know how Kyrie shot his way out of Boston which was despicable.  That's why that idiot 21 year old did something idiotic

Oh. Kyrie with no provocation stomped on the Celtics logo at center court after beating them.

Childish behavior from a guy throwing gas on a situation that never should have happened.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 09:28:30 PM by kingshmegland »
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25662
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3706 on: June 04, 2021, 08:21:38 AM »
I hate discussing racism here because there seems to be a belief that racism is only "I hate XYZ race and want to hurt them." Is the dude right? I have no idea. Maybe? Maybe not? Because the idea itself is totally legit. Might not apply to this specific case, but he's not wrong when you make one group (largely black) entertainers to another group (mostly white) it can very easily result in a level of dehumanization. I doubt I'll post much after this on the subject, but my main point is that while he may or may not be wrong about this specific case, his idea has a lot of merit and deserves to be examined.

agreed 100% , we need to get more comfortable discussing racism on this level.

What are you talking about? If I'm rude to a black guy, it's not simply because I was rude, but I'm a rude racist? You serious?


The DA took a shot that didn't need to be taken. This wasn't a hate crime. People constantly calling racism at every turn, even when it's not are going to create greater divides. Seems the DA was pandering to her constituency.
So the article doesn't mention anything about race or hate crimes. I hunted down a different article, and her remarks had a fairly different meaning than what you imply. The quote you cited began with "it is not lost on me that. . ." which is a pretty benign display of expressing an interpretation, and ended with the very implicit statement that she was not filing a hate crime charge against him, ostensibly because it wasn't applicable. She's doing nothing but expressing the way she sees this. Like you, I think she's probably overblowing things a bit, but there's really no reason to get bent out of shape over it. She sees things a little differently, and pointed it out while taking no action whatsoever with regard to her beliefs. Unless you think that charging him with assault is wrong, which is fine, but completely unrelated to the racism aspect.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8337
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
    • The ANABASIS - Music Making a Difference
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3707 on: June 04, 2021, 12:54:02 PM »
Eh, that's kind of just semantics, though, isn't it?  I'm not sure that putting "it's not lost on me that" in front of that statement mitigates the pandering that I think TAC is calling out here.  Not trying to speak for Tim, he's a big boy, but I too, am a little tired of so many things seemingly stuffed into "dat racism" seemingly at the first opportunity. 


Racism is a massive problem in our society all by itself, this kind of virtue signaling isn't really helping because it comes across to me as phony and opportunistic in a used-car salesman/slimebag politician sort of way.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28141
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3708 on: June 04, 2021, 01:03:11 PM »
I hate discussing racism here because there seems to be a belief that racism is only "I hate XYZ race and want to hurt them." Is the dude right? I have no idea. Maybe? Maybe not? Because the idea itself is totally legit. Might not apply to this specific case, but he's not wrong when you make one group (largely black) entertainers to another group (mostly white) it can very easily result in a level of dehumanization. I doubt I'll post much after this on the subject, but my main point is that while he may or may not be wrong about this specific case, his idea has a lot of merit and deserves to be examined.

agreed 100% , we need to get more comfortable discussing racism on this level.

Don't kid yourself; there's no DISCUSSION.  DISCUSSION is when two sides put their points of view down and they try to find middle ground.  These two posts kind of sound like there's not a lot of discussion to be had.

To be sure, when there are two parties, one black and one white, race CAN POTENTIALLY be a factor.  But we live in a society that needs defaults, that needs to have a baseline, and while it's not up for discussion that the baseline was, for a long time, "NONE of it is race!", the swinging of the pendulum to "EVERYTHING is race" isn't going to get us to the solution any faster. Racism is about in-groups and out-groups; all or nothing assessments do nothing other than change the in-groups and out-groups.  It does nothing to get rid of them altogether, which is the only way the problem goes away.

To this point, there is a LOT to discuss about the very premise of dehumanization, but I'm not necessarily convinced that race is the deciding factor there.   The dehumanization of performer and audience is well-documented by artists like Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Lou Reed, David Bowie, Fish, Mick Jagger, and Neil Peart, among others, and independent of race.  Roger Waters didn't spit on that fan in Montreal because they were on a level playing field.  Hockey does not have the same race dynamic, but ABSOLUTELY has the same audience/performer dynamic.  I have no problem if we want to ask "how does race fit into that generally", that's a fair conversation, but I'm not sure that justifies that District Attorney making that statement in that situation when they have a vested interest in the outcome of that situation.

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25662
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #3709 on: June 04, 2021, 01:10:40 PM »
Eh, that's kind of just semantics, though, isn't it?  I'm not sure that putting "it's not lost on me that" in front of that statement mitigates the pandering that I think TAC is calling out here.  Not trying to speak for Tim, he's a big boy, but I too, am a little tired of so many things seemingly stuffed into "dat racism" seemingly at the first opportunity. 


Racism is a massive problem in our society all by itself, this kind of virtue signaling isn't really helping because it comes across to me as phony and opportunistic in a used-car salesman/slimebag politician sort of way.
I don't really disagree with you. I was explaining it because the impression I got from his post was that it was far more than simply her expressing her interpretation of it. In the end what she did really didn't amount to much.

One thing I will point out is that I think we may be reaching a kind of feedback loop, where an increasing number of people see racism in casual relationships, in this case black athletes performing for the amusement of rich white people, and a similar number of people, because of that, won't see racism even when it's there. Their objections, which may or may not be right, reinforce the former. Like you and Tim I disagree with her assessment. Hostility from white people towards her putting it out there only entrenches her opinion, does it not?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson