Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 74787 times)

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1925 on: June 24, 2018, 12:20:09 PM »
It wasn't a slam on you. I was a compliment. You are usually spot on with how these cases end up
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1926 on: June 24, 2018, 01:21:23 PM »
It wasn't a slam on you. I was a compliment. You are usually spot on with how these cases end up
Oh, sorry. It looked sarcastic as all fuck.

And believe it or not, until more facts come out my hunch is with it being justified. Truth be told, that's my usual starting place.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1927 on: June 24, 2018, 01:34:55 PM »
It was early when I typed that. You usually interpret these situations precisely, and I was just rolling out the carpet for you to come in and do so as you usually do  :)
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1928 on: June 24, 2018, 01:50:12 PM »
After reading the accounts it's going to be a pretty typical deal. In this case Johnny probably was legally justified but the shooting was wholly unnecessary. Of course none of that makes any difference. Johnny can shoot damn near anybody he wants.

This is the second such case to come up in the last few days. Another fleeing suspect was shot in Penn and it'll likely be the same thing. Legally justified, unnecessary, and indicative of the new reality. A cop over at O.com summed it up perfectly:

Quote
Today, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Seventy2002 View Post
This is what Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985) is all about.
Yup. People have a hard time understanding this and the fact that an officer is not just responsible for protecting his own life but the general public as well.

They had probable cause to believe that shots were fired from this vehicle moments earlier and had no way of knowing if the kid who fled the scene was armed. Had he ran into a house and taken people hostage people would ask why he didn't shoot the kid when he had the chance.

Or, what if this was a school shooting and the perp was running away and they didn't know whether he was still armed? They'd be derelict in their duties not to shoot him.

The underlying facts will matter as no two cases are alike. But I am hearing many facts that favor the officer.
All emphasis mine.

You don't shoot somebody based on "what ifs." Garner says you can shoot a fleeing suspect if he poses a threat to you or to the general public. In the new reality you can shoot a fleeing suspect if he might pose a threat to somebody. This is not good.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1929 on: June 26, 2018, 06:37:47 AM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

Offline Adami

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1930 on: June 26, 2018, 06:40:26 AM »
And what if they start shooting if you talk back rudely? And what if they start shooting if you question them?

Do we start saying “if you don’t want to get shot, don’t talk back to or question the police”?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1931 on: June 26, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »
And what if they start shooting if you talk back rudely? And what if they start shooting if you question them?

Do we start saying “if you don’t want to get shot, don’t talk back to or question the police”?

Uh, yeah, maybe.   Change happens in multiple ways.   You have the problem of cops shooting at people who pose a danger, but with the flipside of... they pose a danger.   The  cops have every incentive to make sure they come home after a shift.   Maybe we swing a little further in the other direction, and let the lawyers deal with the run on cases, the run on public defenders, the crowded courts, and we look at ways of clearing these out at the street level.   The criminal justice system is not just the police.  (And  yes, I'm aware that there is a sector of our society is convinced beyond reason that our courts are just a biased against the black man as the police are, but as el Barto said, you don't go off "what ifs?".   There are at least checks and balances in the criminal justice system, and no one - that I know - gets shot for a guilty verdict.   I will add that in my experience - on an almost all-white jury with a black defendant accused of crack dealing and hiding his weapons, money and supply in his child's school backpack, the jury members bent over BACKWARD to avoid the perception of racism, and in fact let him walk, wrongly in my opinion.) 

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1932 on: June 26, 2018, 07:25:00 AM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1933 on: June 26, 2018, 07:54:09 AM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

I didn't say it was. My point is don't put yourself in the situation in the first place.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1934 on: June 26, 2018, 08:18:21 AM »
Interestingly enough, running from the police is not in and of itself a crime. Shooting a man in the back almost always is. Neat how our society treats those two applications of the law.

Also, after seeing a couple of recent examples, I don't think running hurts your chances of surviving the encounter any more than obeying every order you're told.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1935 on: June 26, 2018, 09:11:47 AM »
And what if they start shooting if you talk back rudely? And what if they start shooting if you question them?

Do we start saying “if you don’t want to get shot, don’t talk back to or question the police”?

Uh, yeah, maybe.   Change happens in multiple ways.   You have the problem of cops shooting at people who pose a danger, but with the flipside of... they pose a danger.   The  cops have every incentive to make sure they come home after a shift.   Maybe we swing a little further in the other direction, and let the lawyers deal with the run on cases, the run on public defenders, the crowded courts, and we look at ways of clearing these out at the street level.   The criminal justice system is not just the police.  (And  yes, I'm aware that there is a sector of our society is convinced beyond reason that our courts are just a biased against the black man as the police are, but as el Barto said, you don't go off "what ifs?".   There are at least checks and balances in the criminal justice system, and no one - that I know - gets shot for a guilty verdict.   I will add that in my experience - on an almost all-white jury with a black defendant accused of crack dealing and hiding his weapons, money and supply in his child's school backpack, the jury members bent over BACKWARD to avoid the perception of racism, and in fact let him walk, wrongly in my opinion.)

None of that had anything to do with what I asked other than “uh yea maybe”.
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1936 on: June 26, 2018, 12:55:24 PM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

I didn't say it was. My point is don't put yourself in the situation in the first place.

I guess my opinion would be that the responsibility lies with the person who holds the gun, not the one running the opposite direction.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1937 on: June 26, 2018, 01:08:26 PM »
I know this probably oversimplifies the discussion but if you don't want to get shot by the cops don't run.

How is getting killed an acceptable consequence for running from the law?

I didn't say it was. My point is don't put yourself in the situation in the first place.

I guess my opinion would be that the responsibility lies with the person who holds the gun, not the one running the opposite direction.

I guess my opinion would be, especially given the current state of "things", that running from the police is a REALLY bad idea (depending on the circumstances, as Barto pointed out). The RESPONSIBILITY of the guy holding the gun is to the safety of the general public (and apparently more importantly, themselves). None of this is happening in a vacuum...

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1938 on: June 26, 2018, 02:53:43 PM »

I guess my opinion would be, especially given the current state of "things", that running from the police is a REALLY bad idea (depending on the circumstances, as Barto pointed out). The RESPONSIBILITY of the guy holding the gun is to the safety of the general public (and apparently more importantly, themselves). None of this is happening in a vacuum...

Isn't the person running from the officer part of the general public? Isn't the officer  responsible for that person's safety? Why is there a difference?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1939 on: June 26, 2018, 02:57:16 PM »

I guess my opinion would be, especially given the current state of "things", that running from the police is a REALLY bad idea (depending on the circumstances, as Barto pointed out). The RESPONSIBILITY of the guy holding the gun is to the safety of the general public (and apparently more importantly, themselves). None of this is happening in a vacuum...

Isn't the person running from the officer part of the general public? Isn't the officer  responsible for that person's safety? Why is there a difference?
DING DING DING. Give this woman a cigar.
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Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1940 on: June 26, 2018, 03:43:01 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1941 on: June 26, 2018, 03:57:16 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)
Which one are we talking about here? Penn or Minn? You've got two dead fleeing suspects in the news right now. And in both cases I'm pretty adamant that you err on the side of no corpses. That's where I draw the line. Until somebody is an immediate threat he's still a suspect deserving of due process. Whizzer White didn't write "unless he might someday pose some vague threat" in his Garner decision.
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Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1942 on: June 26, 2018, 04:01:04 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)
Which one are we talking about here? Penn or Minn? You've got two dead fleeing suspects in the news right now. And in both cases I'm pretty adamant that you err on the side of no corpses. That's where I draw the line. Until somebody is an immediate threat he's still a suspect deserving of due process. Whizzer White didn't write "unless he might someday pose some vague threat" in his Garner decision.

I don't disagree. But I just wouldn't say he gave himself the best chance at NOT getting shot, whether it's right or not. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try and put more legal culpability on the officers, but someone should look into that...

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1943 on: June 26, 2018, 04:57:52 PM »
As Barto said, the police came to the conclusion that he posed a threat to the GREATER general public. I don't necessarily like that they're able to make that decision, but given the information they had, where do we draw the line at what's "reasonable"? This isn't a guy sitting in a passenger seat, obeying officer's orders, suddenly full of bullets.

(P.S. I hate Hate HATE the "brotherhood" and shitty dickholes with badges, but acknowledge that they're not all bad)
Which one are we talking about here? Penn or Minn? You've got two dead fleeing suspects in the news right now. And in both cases I'm pretty adamant that you err on the side of no corpses. That's where I draw the line. Until somebody is an immediate threat he's still a suspect deserving of due process. Whizzer White didn't write "unless he might someday pose some vague threat" in his Garner decision.

I don't disagree. But I just wouldn't say he gave himself the best chance at NOT getting shot, whether it's right or not. I can't even imagine what it would be like to try and put more legal culpability on the officers, but someone should look into that...
Well, a really big part of the problem is that I don't think you or I have any idea what gives you the best opportunity to not be shot anymore. Two weeks ago I would have wagered that running gave him a better chance at not being shot than trying to play Simon says with a bunch of jacked up cops on the side of the road. It removes the possibility of Johnny playing the "I was in fear for my life" card, and you've got a pretty clear legal precedent. The latter isn't to suggest that the law would make any difference, it wouldn't, but it is a bright line that the police have had drilled into their head. I would have considered it a tradeoff between the uncertainty of a felony stop and the absolute certainty of a Rodney King style beatdown. Man, how do you calculate that when Monty Hall offers you one door with an instant ass whipping and another door that could contain anything from an uneventful trip to the calaboose to a Sonny Corleone style massacre?

However, the fact that we're discussing this points to the bigger problem. The onus shouldn't be on us to figure out how not to get shot by the police.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1944 on: June 27, 2018, 10:40:28 AM »
The cop that shot Antwon Rose is being charged with some variety of homicide. Anybody want to place a bet on whether or not he's convicted?  :lol

One thing this does suggest is that the video was pretty damning. The kid was shot in the back as he ran away. At the same time they've linked the weapon found in the car to a previous drive-by shooting, so that'll clear Johnny. It won't take five minutes for a jury to acquit him, and in light of the standards at play here they'll be "right" to do so.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1945 on: June 29, 2018, 10:11:04 AM »
What about personal responsibility? If you don't want to get tased then you shouldn't, um, well, fuck, I don't know anymore.  :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrrzX7GmGY
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1946 on: June 29, 2018, 01:36:58 PM »
What about personal responsibility? If you don't want to get tased then you shouldn't, um, well, fuck, I don't know anymore.  :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfrrzX7GmGY

That cop should be tazed twice a day for the next year for that. Utterly ridiculous. You can't give commands that people may or may not be able to perform. Not every person can stick their legs straight out in front of them while sitting. I'd like to see him try that without a bend in his knee.

I don't think the cop should lose his job but certainly extensive training and like I said, he should be tazed himself....multiple times.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1947 on: June 29, 2018, 02:06:45 PM »
He will lose his job and rightly so. While cops are above the law they generally aren't above department procedure. So long as there's evidence that can't be ignored or buried they'll usually be disciplined accordingly. He was offering at most passive resistance, and quite possibly none at all and just couldn't figure out how to do what they were commanding. Johnny was still 2 or 3 steps removed from taser country.

The thing that really bugs me is what ever happened to "excuse me, can I talk to you a for a minute?" A white guy walking down the street with a mini-14 still gets "Hey, what's going on? Can I have a word with you?" And those guys are invariably going to be assholes, that's why they're doing what they do. It takes 30 or 40 "am I being detained"s before Johnny loses his coll. A black guy is ordered to the ground before they even find out if he's armed or doing something wrong. The call the cops in that video were responding to was a guy with a baseball bat. A bat he clearly doesn't have.

And I'll reiterate, it's not because cops hate black people. Cops are afraid of black people.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1948 on: July 05, 2018, 12:14:43 PM »
Cops prescribing sedatives. What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180703/15383240171/cops-are-telling-paramedics-to-inject-arrestees-with-ketamine-worse-ems-crews-are-actually-doing-it.shtml

Quote

    Minneapolis police officers have repeatedly requested over the past three years that Hennepin County medical responders sedate people using the powerful tranquilizer ketamine, at times over the protests of those being drugged, and in some cases when no apparent crime was committed, a city report shows.

    On multiple occasions, in the presence of police, Hennepin Healthcare EMS workers injected suspects of crimes and others who already appeared to be restrained, according to the report, and the ketamine caused heart or breathing failure, requiring them to be medically revived. Several people given ketamine had to be intubated.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1949 on: July 05, 2018, 03:57:55 PM »
Cops prescribing sedatives. What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180703/15383240171/cops-are-telling-paramedics-to-inject-arrestees-with-ketamine-worse-ems-crews-are-actually-doing-it.shtml

Quote

    Minneapolis police officers have repeatedly requested over the past three years that Hennepin County medical responders sedate people using the powerful tranquilizer ketamine, at times over the protests of those being drugged, and in some cases when no apparent crime was committed, a city report shows.

    On multiple occasions, in the presence of police, Hennepin Healthcare EMS workers injected suspects of crimes and others who already appeared to be restrained, according to the report, and the ketamine caused heart or breathing failure, requiring them to be medically revived. Several people given ketamine had to be intubated.

Yeah, not a fan of that at all.  I can see administering some sort of approved drug in the case of a apparent drug overdose, poisoning, or animal bite, but this isn't that.