Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 75284 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1890 on: April 27, 2018, 10:45:26 AM »
Is that "hate speech?"  I think it is.
I disagree but respect your opinion. More power to you. Where we run into a problem is when we try to codify that, or leave it to lawmakers to try and define it. Even employers, IMO. Personally, I think the important thing is to remove the potential ramifications so as not to have to keep making that distinction. Hence the accepted interpretation of the first amendment (disregard content).

Sadly, that'll never happen living within generation butthurt.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1891 on: April 27, 2018, 10:53:32 AM »
I also disagree it was hate speech.  I do agree it was in extremely poor taste, but I don't agree it crossed that line into hate speech.

Now the case of the Florida teacher who was removed from the classroom when it was discovered she hosted a white supremacist podcast?  I'd lean further toward that as hate speech.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-school-removes-teacher-who-hosted-white-nationalist-podcast-n853096

I wonder if you all here agree she should've been fired?  I know I should probably say that I'd want my middle schooler to come to his/her own decision about her viewpoints on race, but I'd be lying.  High schooler, maybe.  College student, probably.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1892 on: April 27, 2018, 10:54:12 AM »
Is that "hate speech?"  I think it is.
I disagree but respect your opinion. 

It's a tough call, and I'm not sure where the line is.  To me, she crossed it when openly saying she was glad someone died, and glad the rest of the family is suffering, and can't wait until they die too.  I'm not sure we should be able to go that far.  But...it's a tough call and a VERY blurry line, so I can certainly see where others may disagree, and I can't really come back with anything other than what I feel.  But I'm certainly not going to try to impose that view on others.

Where we run into a problem is when we try to codify that, or leave it to lawmakers to try and define it.

Yeah, exactly.  That's kinda what I was getting at.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:06:26 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1893 on: April 27, 2018, 10:56:13 AM »
I also disagree it was hate speech.  I do agree it was in extremely poor taste, but I don't agree it crossed that line into hate speech.

Now the case of the Florida teacher who was removed from the classroom when it was discovered she hosted a white supremacist podcast?  I'd lean further toward that as hate speech.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-school-removes-teacher-who-hosted-white-nationalist-podcast-n853096

I wonder if you all here agree she should've been fired?  I know I should probably say that I'd want my middle schooler to come to his/her own decision about her viewpoints on race, but I'd be lying.  High schooler, maybe.  College student, probably.
 

Without reading it, I can't say whether I agree or disagree about it being "hate speech."  I'm not willing to label it as such simply because it was a "white supremacist podcast."  The actual content is the issue.

But as you rightly, in my opinion, called out, it is MUCH more problematic when it is a middle school teacher rather than a college professor. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1894 on: April 27, 2018, 12:04:01 PM »
If there's no evidence that she's espousing those views to the kiddos then I don't sack her. I probably do pass on bringing her back the next year, though, due to a profound lack of judgment.

Whether or not it constitutes hate speech means dick to me.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1895 on: April 27, 2018, 01:10:37 PM »
But free discussion of ideas is such a valuable thing, and I am very much in favor of an open marketplace of ideas and discussion where she is allowed to express her views, and others are allowed to, with equal vigor, express their disapproval and discuss it. 

She...then upped the ante and taunted anyone who tweeted any opposition. 

Doesn't sound like she isn't very interested in "an open marketplace of ideas and discussion where...others are allowed to, with equal vigor, express their disapproval and discuss it." Which, on a grander scale, seems to be the norm these days. 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1896 on: April 27, 2018, 01:14:17 PM »
Well, no, she isn't.  But that isn't to say there isn't value in having the discussion.  And I'm saying that, for the purposes of having that "open marketplace of ideas" in general, once an institution gets in the middle of trying to determine what is or isn't acceptable, it potentially shuts down a lot more than just that one conversation.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1897 on: May 01, 2018, 10:42:57 AM »
I also disagree it was hate speech.  I do agree it was in extremely poor taste, but I don't agree it crossed that line into hate speech.

Now the case of the Florida teacher who was removed from the classroom when it was discovered she hosted a white supremacist podcast?  I'd lean further toward that as hate speech.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-school-removes-teacher-who-hosted-white-nationalist-podcast-n853096

I wonder if you all here agree she should've been fired?  I know I should probably say that I'd want my middle schooler to come to his/her own decision about her viewpoints on race, but I'd be lying.  High schooler, maybe.  College student, probably.
 

Without reading it, I can't say whether I agree or disagree about it being "hate speech."  I'm not willing to label it as such simply because it was a "white supremacist podcast."  The actual content is the issue.

But as you rightly, in my opinion, called out, it is MUCH more problematic when it is a middle school teacher rather than a college professor.

That's one of the things that I bristle against in this subject of discussion.  It seems that we are far too willing to apply "hate speech" by association, and that's really problematic for me. 

I for one am in agreement - generally - with the Supreme Court on this matter.  That speech is "hateful" doesn't rise to the level of allowing for the undermining of free speech, unless and until it becomes "inciting".   We ought not be trying to chill speech we don't like; that to me is a sign that our own argument isn't that strong (or that we can't make that argument cogently enough).  I get that that isn't a popular stance, and I don't mean it literally and universally, but I do believe there is truth in there.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1898 on: May 01, 2018, 11:34:40 AM »
I kind of thought that intrinsic to the meaning of the term "hate speech" itself was the concept of incitement. So, not just a racist statement, but a racist statement with an element of threat to it. I agree that we can't label all distasteful speech as hate speech. Also, doesn't hate speech also require an aspect of being directed towards a specific sub-group of people due to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.? For instance, the Barbara Bush example from earlier felt more like slander or something than legally "hate speech," though it certainly could have been hateful speech.


Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1899 on: May 01, 2018, 12:08:11 PM »
I kind of thought that intrinsic to the meaning of the term "hate speech" itself was the concept of incitement. So, not just a racist statement, but a racist statement with an element of threat to it. I agree that we can't label all distasteful speech as hate speech. Also, doesn't hate speech also require an aspect of being directed towards a specific sub-group of people due to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.? For instance, the Barbara Bush example from earlier felt more like slander or something than legally "hate speech," though it certainly could have been hateful speech.
I don't think hate speech requires an element of incitement, but I'm not sure. However, incitement is generally a crime, bigoted or not.

The bigger problem is that nobody actually knows what the hell hate speech is anymore. Were Donald Sterling and the Hulkster uttering hate speech? A helluva lot of young people will say so. In a European example, TV stations in German have refused to televise a Roger Waters concert that they had originally intended to because they've decided that his support of BDS constitutes hate speech. Simply calling for a boycott of Israeli goods qualifies over there. You think there's a shortage of people here who would support such a stance? I read something the other day that referred to a group as being pro-man, and therefore misogynistic.

The point being, we're moving towards the point where hate speech simply refers to any prejudicial remarks that you don't like. This is why I said before that we have no business trying to sanction such a thing. We're already chilling speech enough as it is.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1900 on: May 01, 2018, 12:13:47 PM »
I kind of thought that intrinsic to the meaning of the term "hate speech" itself was the concept of incitement. So, not just a racist statement, but a racist statement with an element of threat to it. I agree that we can't label all distasteful speech as hate speech. Also, doesn't hate speech also require an aspect of being directed towards a specific sub-group of people due to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.? For instance, the Barbara Bush example from earlier felt more like slander or something than legally "hate speech," though it certainly could have been hateful speech.
I don't think hate speech requires an element of incitement, but I'm not sure. However, incitement is generally a crime, bigoted or not.

The bigger problem is that nobody actually knows what the hell hate speech is anymore. Were Donald Sterling and the Hulkster uttering hate speech? A helluva lot of young people will say so. In a European example, TV stations in German have refused to televise a Roger Waters concert that they had originally intended to because they've decided that his support of BDS constitutes hate speech. Simply calling for a boycott of Israeli goods qualifies over there. You think there's a shortage of people here who would support such a stance? I read something the other day that referred to a group as being pro-man, and therefore misogynistic.

The point being, we're moving towards the point where hate speech simply refers to any prejudicial remarks that you don't like. This is why I said before that we have no business trying to sanction such a thing. We're already chilling speech enough as it is.

"Hate speech" doesn't require incitement, but that's because you're right about everything else:  "hate speech" is EXCEEDINGLY subjective.    "Incitement" will, however, lose you your First Amendment protections.   It's called "fighting words", basically.  The Courts have consistently held that "hate speech" itself is protected, but "fighting words" - words that incite imminent unlawful behavior - is not. 

It's an odd thing to say, and I don't mean it literally, but as a sort of generality, I kind of feel that just like we all have to experience a broken heart once in our live to really know what it means to love, we should all be subjected to these kinds of abhorrent ideas to keep our perspective and keep our edge up. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1901 on: May 01, 2018, 01:05:53 PM »
The point being, we're moving towards the point where hate speech simply refers to any prejudicial remarks that you don't like. This is why I said before that we have no business trying to sanction such a thing. We're already chilling speech enough as it is.

Agreed.  Shoot, I issue a forum warning to someone, and I get PM's and emails accursing me of "hate speech."  :lol  (no, I'm not joking or exaggerating)

What's fascinating to me is, in the context of the example I cited above with Professor Jarrar, if it's a private employer, and they decide that she went too far as an employee, they cut her loose.  Yeah, she'll then try to play the race card and pretend that THAT was the issue.  But free speech doesn't really enter the picture.  But because she works for a university, if THEY cut her loose because of what she said, suddenly you have a major Constitutional issue on your hands because now "the government" is curtailing speech.  It doesn't matter that it being "the government" arguably shouldn't even play a role because, when it comes right down to it, this is just an employer handling employee issues.  That may not bother some, but it bothers me.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1902 on: May 01, 2018, 01:37:40 PM »
Jackie (Bout to Crash) tells me she hates me on a daily basis.

That has to qualify as hate speech, right?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1903 on: May 04, 2018, 09:41:45 AM »
So from hate speech to hate crimes.

I saw this last night and it troubles me. Short story is that some very angry old man hurled racial epithets at a black chick over her [quite agreeably] shitty parking job. Some comically half-assed punches and kicks were exchanged, and he's charged with misdemeanor assault and hate crime charges are potentially forthcoming. Yet when I watch the video I don't see him assaulting her. It looks to me that she threw the first punch. Or, this could be considered a case of mutual combat after she challenged him. Either way I'm thinking that either she or both get charged if assault charges are warranted. Just charging him and pronouncing her the victim doesn't sit so well with me.

What bugs me is that because this guy is very definitely a raging asshole the rules seem to have changed. Honestly, I don't blame the girl for taking a swing at him; he had it coming. But being a racist asshole shouldn't subject you to a different set of rules. It's hard to defend the guy, granted, but just because she was the victim of his assholery doesn't mean that she's the victim of all that follows. It seems to me that we're in a place now where that is no longer the case.

https://nypost.com/2018/05/03/80-year-old-man-investigated-for-hate-crime-after-racist-rant/

(Disorderly conduct charges for the old man are certainly warranted. That's just not the point I'm making.)
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1904 on: May 04, 2018, 09:45:13 AM »
I don't disagree with your point at all.  But in light of you making that very point, and having made it in the past, I'm a little confused by your coming at me pretty hard lately when I've tried to make similar points.  :dunno:
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1905 on: May 04, 2018, 10:06:27 AM »
I don't disagree with your point at all.  But in light of you making that very point, and having made it in the past, I'm a little confused by your coming at me pretty hard lately when I've tried to make similar points.  :dunno:
When have I called you out at all lately? The JLB thing? In the racism/cop thread we've largely been on the same page.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1906 on: May 04, 2018, 10:22:07 AM »
Maybe I'm mixing my issues.  I blame lack of sleep.  The past month has been pretty much a blur, honestly.  :lol
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1907 on: May 07, 2018, 06:44:00 PM »
Here's one... dude steals an ax from a store, threatens employees, is pursued by police, and is ultimately subdued by an officer using no excessive force or weapons of any kind. Result.... his supervisors file a complaint for his "failure to de-escalate" the situation with a recommendation he receive a 2 day suspension w/out pay.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/spd-officer-faces-discipline-for-arrest-of-man-with-ice-axe/744024757

Would he have been better off shooting him? /sarcasm.

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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1908 on: May 07, 2018, 08:43:25 PM »
Here's one... dude steals an ax from a store, threatens employees, is pursued by police, and is ultimately subdued by an officer using no excessive force or weapons of any kind. Result.... his supervisors file a complaint for his "failure to de-escalate" the situation with a recommendation he receive a 2 day suspension w/out pay.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/spd-officer-faces-discipline-for-arrest-of-man-with-ice-axe/744024757

Would he have been better off shooting him? /sarcasm.

Sounds like he's pretty lucky he didn't get shot.

I'm not a cop, but don't officers have radios where they can talk to each other during incidents so they are all on the same page as to how to approach?  Or policies that offer guidance on how best to handle various situations and training that goes along with that?

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1909 on: May 07, 2018, 08:58:12 PM »
It seems as though that officer might have gone "rogue" with his decision to go for the take-down, and if that is against standard policy, then make that the issue, not this "failure to de-escalate" crap. Then maybe issue a Coach Lou Brown "Nice catch Hayes, don't ever fucking do it again" warning instead of a suspension.

The way cops are managed in Seattle, given a "Leave Them Alone" edict with regards to the masses of homeless junkies, and protesters who flood the streets every other week, he was probably exited to actually be able to arrest someone.

Wait... in an unrelated story, they arrested some protesters today... I am honestly speechless.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1910 on: May 07, 2018, 11:21:10 PM »
My first thought was the the failure to deescalate was on the cops that did nothing while a crazy fuck with an axe walked down the street.  :lol

I'm not a cop, but don't officers have radios where they can talk to each other during incidents so they are all on the same page as to how to approach?  Or policies that offer guidance on how best to handle various situations and training that goes along with that?
As a rule departments employ an unofficial Use of Force Continuum. Unofficial because while they want officers to use it they don't want them to worry about it and rattle off a checklist in the middle of a shootout. UFCs come in all manner of slick looking formats, but they all say essentially the same thing, which is how much force to use for however much resistance.

Here's a round one:


I appreciate that these guys stress verbalization at every escalation.

While I didn't see one for Seattle, I suspect that failure to follow a policy such as this was the cop's problem. What I did find (quite easily) was the Seattle PD's officer manual, and they place a great emphasis on deescalation. Almost certainly a reaction to when they shot that homeless guys a few years back. Assuming that there were cops on hand that knew he was reasonably well contained and not an immediate threat to public safety, then I suppose the cop did jump the gun a bit.

Here's the relevant bit that stresses the core of their philosophy, and what I assume they found fault with.
Quote
De-escalation tactics and techniques are actions used by officers, when safe and without compromising law enforcement priorities, that seek to minimize the likelihood of the need to use force during an incident and increase the likelihood of voluntary compliance

When safe and feasible under the totality of circumstances, officers shall attempt to slow down or stabilize the situation so that more time, options and resources are available for incident resolution.
https://www.seattle.gov/police-manual/title-8---use-of-force/8100---de-escalation

I wouldn't throw the book at the guy or anything, but I can understand how they might find fault with his actions. And I damn sure won't complain when a department is trying to minimize the use of force for the safety of the citizenry.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1911 on: May 08, 2018, 07:51:08 AM »
So el barto, help me out here.  The issue  is that the cop DIDN'T shoot, but DID use excessive force in getting him into custody?  Is that it?   So the department is saying that he could have been coaxed into custody willingly?   

There's no judgment here, just wanting to understand, uh, without reading all the links (yes, I'm a ten-year old boy trying to get out of his homework!).

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1912 on: May 08, 2018, 08:08:09 AM »
So el barto, help me out here.  The issue  is that the cop DIDN'T shoot, but DID use excessive force in getting him into custody?  Is that it?   So the department is saying that he could have been coaxed into custody willingly?   

There's no judgment here, just wanting to understand, uh, without reading all the links (yes, I'm a ten-year old boy trying to get out of his homework!).
My hypothesis is that he's being disciplined for failing to follow procedure. Rather than saying the he could have been taken into custody willingly, I suspect they're saying that there was still opportunity to try and take him into custody peacefully. I think the excerpt I posted from their manual tells quite clearly what they're going for, and they most likely felt he violated that in spirit.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1913 on: May 08, 2018, 09:59:56 AM »
So is it social media bringing it to more attention but what is it with the spate of white people calling cops on black people for doing essentially nothing?  This morning I'm reading about a first year Yale student who happens to be black having the audacity of falling asleep while working on a term paper in the common area of her dorm.  Her white neighbor called the cops on her and the cops proceeded to interrogate the black woman outside of her dorm room.

I know we live in a time of "If you see something, say something" but isn't making a bogus call to 911 or the police illegal?  OMG there is a black student sleeping in the common area of the dorm!!!   :omg: ::)

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1914 on: May 08, 2018, 10:06:58 AM »
I suspect they're saying that there was still opportunity to try and take him into custody peacefully...

Possibly, but the cop tackled him with about as much force as a high school linebacker. After you had been asked several times to do something and you refuse, I don't think such a tackle is an unreasonable next step.

But at the end of the day...

My hypothesis is that he's being disciplined for failing to follow procedure.

Yes, It's just not a good look for a dept to reprimand a policeman who resolved a potentially violent issue without the use of force or a firearm.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1915 on: May 08, 2018, 10:26:35 AM »
So is it social media bringing it to more attention but what is it with the spate of white people calling cops on black people for doing essentially nothing?  This morning I'm reading about a first year Yale student who happens to be black having the audacity of falling asleep while working on a term paper in the common area of her dorm.  Her white neighbor called the cops on her and the cops proceeded to interrogate the black woman outside of her dorm room.

I know we live in a time of "If you see something, say something" but isn't making a bogus call to 911 or the police illegal?  OMG there is a black student sleeping in the common area of the dorm!!!   :omg: ::)

Do we know that's why?   Just asking.   I live an hour from New Haven (my daughter goes to boarding school about 20 minutes from there) and knowing New Haven like I do... something seems off with that story.   I can't find it with a moderate Google, and given the past history with "race" at Yale - it's an EXTREMELY liberal school - I feel like there may be more to the story. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1916 on: May 08, 2018, 10:37:11 AM »
I believe it just happened yesterday.  Shaun King posted it to his Facebook page which is how I got to it.  The black student's name is LoLade Siyonbola and the video she shot is posted on her FB page.  It probably hasn't gone viral yet.

She remained amazingly calm during the whole thing. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1917 on: May 08, 2018, 10:45:56 AM »
I suspect they're saying that there was still opportunity to try and take him into custody peacefully...

Possibly, but the cop tackled him with about as much force as a high school linebacker. After you had been asked several times to do something and you refuse, I don't think such a tackle is an unreasonable next step.

But at the end of the day...

My hypothesis is that he's being disciplined for failing to follow procedure.

Yes, It's just not a good look for a dept to reprimand a policeman who resolved a potentially violent issue without the use of force or a firearm.
Well, tackling somebody does constitute use of force. It also constitutes potential liability. I really couldn't see how he took him down, but often when Johnny tackles somebody he drives them forward pretty hard. Just like "feared for my safety" is the magic word in a shooting, "he caused me to lose my balance" has the same effect when smashing somebody's head into the ground. I'm not saying that's what happened here, it's probably not, but you can get sued for that shit, and the department certainly has an interest in avoiding such matters.

In any case, it does seem somewhat wishy-washy, but I can appreciate the department's cautious approach, and there is reason to think he violated procedure.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1918 on: May 08, 2018, 11:01:32 AM »
This link contains both of the videos taken during the incident.  https://thegrio.com/2018/05/08/black-student-yale-police-nap/

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1919 on: May 08, 2018, 12:03:50 PM »
Fucking Yalies.

The problem with this, as with plenty of other identical situations, is that we have no way of knowing how things would have turned out if she'd been white. People like to assume they'd have brought her coffee and chauffeured her to a hotel on the taxpayer's dime, but it's just as possible the situation goes down the exact same way. Hell, it's possible that they were more respectful than usual due to concerns about exactly what we're seeing. I've certainly been hassled by Johnny before, and I didn't hear any of them yelling "don't lie to me, boy!" to her.

Seems to me the problem is with the bitch neighbor, honestly.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1920 on: May 08, 2018, 12:07:45 PM »
For sure.  Which is why I was asking about making false reports to 911 or the police.  Seems like that neighbor lady needs to be cited for making a false report.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1921 on: June 06, 2018, 03:09:22 PM »
So this is nice. A couple of years ago I linked to a story about a guy who was taken to the hospital to receive forced enemas in a search for drugs that he didn't possess. Similar think happened to this woman, who's offense was coming home from a trip to Mexico.

Quote
    First, two female agents conducted a pat down. The agents found no drugs. The agents then held Bustillos for a K-9 search. The K-9 failed to alert to the presence of drugs. Two agents then took Bustillos to a restroom, where they ordered her to pull down her pants and underwear and bend over slightly. The agents conducted a visual inspection of Bustillos’ vaginal and anal area. Again, the agents found no drugs.

    Despite no evidence of drugs, the agents placed tape on Bustillos’ legs and abdomen, handcuffed her, and transported her to the University Medical Center (the “Hospital”) in El Paso.

    At the Hospital, Doctors Michael Parsa and Daniel Solomin (the “Doctors”) ordered a series of x-rays to search for drugs. The x-rays revealed no drugs. The Doctors then performed a pelvic exam. Again, the pelvic exam evidenced no drugs. Solomin then conducted a rectal exam. Yet again, Solomin found no evidence of drugs. As part of these searches, the Doctors, and Nurses Lynette Telles and Frank Mendez (the “Nurses”), allegedly “brutally” probed Bustillos’ cavities in the presence of hospital personnel. Bustillos did not consent to any of the above searches.

I'm not sure what happened to the first guy, but this gal sued everybody. Understandably so, I would think. However, turns out that there's no problem with any of this. Both the police and the hospital are covered by qualified immunity, and since it happened at a border (or its functional equivalent, the hospital), the 4th amendment isn't really relevant anyway. There's really nothing preventing this outcome happening to anybody, and no recourse if it does.

A while back I discussed with Stadler whether or not something was illegal if there were no repercussions for doing it. In that case it was cops shooting people. This seems to be the same sort of situation. You don't have to be a constitutional scholar to reckon that what she went through qualified as unreasonable. I'd be interested in hearing an argument for how this isn't unconstitutional. But what difference does that make if the people who do it can never be held accountable? The cops can tell the doctors to do it and the doctors are then covered. This is not how a free society is supposed to work.

But hey, I'm sure congress will straighten it out to ensure that this can't happen again.  :lol

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180525/16282339916/court-has-no-problem-with-multiple-invasive-probings-search-drugs-that-didnt-exist.shtml
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline SystematicThought

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1922 on: June 23, 2018, 10:39:24 PM »
Police shooting in North Minneapolis. Still don't know what happened yet, but there were two 911 calls apparently with precise descriptions of the man and he was apparently shooting a 9mm in the air and at the ground through the alleys. Police showed up and he apparently ran and what we know then is that police shot him. Body cameras were on and activated during the shooting.

I don't think that will be enough, people in the neighborhood are just saying that he was sitting on the steps when the cops came up and started chasing him. Police reports contradict that and 911 calls. Even if it comes out that he was shooting a gun and being an idiot and was being a threat, the cops are still the bad guys. No matter what the cops have already lost this one.


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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1923 on: June 23, 2018, 10:56:41 PM »
No matter what the cops have already lost this one.

*waits for El Barto to come in and explain how the cops will get away clean like they usually do.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1924 on: June 24, 2018, 11:25:42 AM »
No matter what the cops have already lost this one.

*waits for El Barto to come in and explain how the cops will get away clean like they usually do.
If you haven't been able to figure it out yet I won't bother.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson