Author Topic: Police brutality, looting and racism  (Read 96677 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1785 on: April 07, 2018, 09:45:57 AM »
Interesting. Well, you certainly seem to have a pretty level-headed analysis of things presented here, although I still don't know if I can go as far you do in what you're saying about possible objectivity... or perhaps you're just saying you're particularly gifted in this regard. Perhaps so.

I am wondering about a hypothetical, though (and of course, I know a lot of ppl will disagree with some of my setup here, but roll with it as a thought exercise if you can):

And Barto, this isn't necessarily directed at you. You got that obama-level dispassion... actually, i'd like to see you (or stadler or bosk) debate obama... i wish THAT were a show instead of David Letterman interviews

BUT ANYWAY...

Let's assume that black people HAVE been severely disadvantaged due to historical and systemic factors largely beyond their control... therefore, this would make them, on average, less likely to be able to discuss, say, racism in the dispassionate, objective manner seemingly desired in this thread (not saying I agree with that, but again: thought exercise).

Would the other side of that coin not be that white people have been inversely ADvantaged, and thus (assuming they were even aware of this privilege), less likely, on average, to be able to discuss those advantages in a dispassionate, objective manner?


asking for a friend...
Well, I think I've done alright at being able to discuss my "advantage" in a dispassionate manner. However, I think you're correct. I can't be truly free from bias. I think where we run into in issue is in framing this as a contest. I'm discussing the relative values of our positions, but at the end of the day I see them as complementary. My presumably advantaged self should be able to have a very interesting and reasonable discussion about these things with a disadvantaged black guy, and our disparate experiences should enable us to each make valuable contributions. What I tend to see, though, is the lack of one kind of personal experience shutting down the conversation, though.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1786 on: April 07, 2018, 11:27:35 AM »
The 'shutting down the conversation' happens in both directions, as I see it.  I don't think it has to.

Sometimes it may also do with terminology.  Not too many pages back, someone used the words 'the system of white supremacy' and see how quickly the conversation was attempted to be chilled by the responses after that.  That person became 'part of the problem' immediately.  Not so different than calling someone a 'racist' chills the discussion.
 
EB I don't think anyone here is making this about you and your contribution to this thread.  I hope we're talking about what we see in a typical conversation about race.  I completely agree with your point that sometimes being in the middle of something can make one less objective, and objectivity is valuable and necessary part of any discussion.  And it seems that here you are at least open to the idea that the inherent bias - call it privilege for lack of a better word - that many of us share can also break down the discussion when we don't recognize it in ourselves or at least admit that it even exists.  You are correct, it doesn't need to be a contest.

So how do we have a dicussion about race that both captures the subjective experience of the individual (or group) but maintains the objectivity necessary to be productive?

Personally, what I find myself struggling with is that while I understand that I have my inherent bias and 'privilege' I'm not always aware of where it shows up.  I feel like the saying, "How do stupid people know they are stupid?"  If I am not always aware of it when it occurs, or if I'm not open to having it pointed out to me when it does occur, how can I be sure that I'm being fair in my POV?

« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 02:51:25 PM by Harmony »

Online Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1787 on: April 07, 2018, 10:46:55 PM »
But I mean the systems of our economics, schooling, law enforcement, labor market, etc. tend to disproportionately produce worse outcomes for minorities. I might also argue the same thing for the poor. There's definitely some intersectionality there, and I think society should work on both problems. And perhaps we've fucked things up so badly, for so many groups, that it's best to try something like universal basic income, instead of reparations for specific groups.

I want to single out this paragraph for a moment, because I think it's important.  You seem to see outcomes, and rank them according to "race" and "whether they are poor".   I would argue that the outcomes ARE whether you're poor, and that's the point.  You're now confusing "opportunity" with "outcome".   I don't think the poor being poor is entirely due to systemic disadvantage.  At some point, this is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.  We can argue whether "wealth" is the right measure of "outcome", but since our society puts so much emphasis ON economic outcome, it's probably inevitable. At some point, though, the intellect, work ethic, attitude, etc. that got people into the position to be poor is possibly going to continue that trend.    I look at some people in my life and I see how they approach education ("why do I need THAT class for? I'm never going to use THAT") and work ethic ("Five o'clock, motherfucker, I'm off the clock" or "tough, not my job") and attitude (see previous, but also, "my boss is stupid; I could do his job with a blind fold on and one hand tied behind my back" and "hell yeah, I'm taking that stapler; they don't need it, they won't miss it"), and there is absolutely zero mystery why they aren't sipping champagne on the Riviera and eating caviar out of a glass slipper. 

This isn't everyone.  There are people that have simply gotten a raw deal.   The jury is out with me as to our obligation to them.  Part of me says that reality is a harsh mistress, part of me says it wouldn't kill us to provide a minimum outcome for people.  But none of this can ignore basic human nature.  Compassion is a wonderful thing, it's a necessary thing, and a powerful thing.   But when it gets to the point that it trumps basic principles of how humans operate, it's going to be a difficult thing to implement and sustain. I think at a minimum we have to rule out all the other things as much as we can, fix the things that are universal and apply to all, and see where we're at. Putting everything in the lap of racism right out of the gate seems to run afoul of so many other variables.   

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1788 on: April 07, 2018, 11:06:18 PM »

And, to set the wider context for this, I think Rothstein is arguing that government-sponsored housing segregation in the 1900s was so bad as to fulfill the definition of "a vestige of slavery", and that the 13th amendment committed us to eliminating such vestiges from society. Therefore, if segregated housing today is still a large racial/socioeconomic problem (which I would agree with Rothstein that it is), and our current situation flows forth from massive state-sponsored policies in the 1900s that amounted to "a vestige of slavery", then perhaps the 13th amendment commits us even today to continue its enforcement and work harder to integrate housing. I'd just be curious to know what are the legal problems with this idea, or is it more that people disagree with the history set forth?

What does all this look like?  How do you do this without gaming the system and focusing on outcomes?  Do you give two years of subsidized housing for blacks only, take it away for whites, them put it all back in for everyone after that?   If everything you say is true, this is essentially reparations you're calling for, and who is going to pay for that? Taxpayers?  How do you measure success or failure other than guaranteeing outcomes?   And once you do that, what about all the white people whose subsidized housing DIDN'T result in a financial windfall, like those in Bridgeport that I talked about before?  This is where the potential constitutionality comes in; you can't treat classes differently, and when you start to guarantee outcomes, even for a positive reasons, that's where you get in trouble (and where Roberts' statement likely doesn't hold up given the right case). 

Online Stadler

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1789 on: April 07, 2018, 11:20:01 PM »
I kind of don't like this argument because it tends to work one way.   If I'm precluded from critically analyzing the black female parental experience in America today, aren't I equally voided from advocating for it?    How does that not reduce down "Aiiight, whatever they say!"?   That's a REALLY dangerous tack to take, though, because when it comes to minorities, BY DEFINITION, in a democratic representative republic, they are NEVER going to be able to accomplish anything without someone of another minority or of the majority having sympathy/empathy with their position.   Finally, if all this is true, we've just reduced Bruce Springsteen's entire catalogue of music down to a couple of really cute love songs.   I don't mean to be snarky, here, but it's basically the same argument.

See my reply to EB but I wanted to ask you a question.  And for the record, I think when we advocate for something, we sure as hell ought to have an understanding of it from those who have experienced it.

But here is my question, since you brought up Bruce Springsteen.  Let's say you got to meet him face to face for a beer.  And he was talking to you about his life experience on the road.  What it was like traveling from gig to gig.  The good and the bad.  All of it.  Would you look him in the face and tell him he's wrong?

Why would I do that?   I'm not at all talking about any one person's experience.  I would never ever presume to tell someone their experience is wrong.  I might, given the person and the nature of the conversation, initiate a discussion about how their personal experience is the exception to the rule, provided I can give evidence of the rule.   As applies to Bruce, I might ask, "Bruce, how does that what you told me compare to a band like, say, Marillion?  Or Cinderella?  Or your compatriot, Southside Johnny?   NONE of that would be to say Bruce is "wrong", but for every Bruce there are 10, or 100, or 1000 artists that have different experiences. It might be a good conversation to hear what Bruce thinks about how his experiences compare, and why his might be different. 

Look, this implication that we're telling people they are "wrong" implies a level of sanctimony and judgment that - I can't speak for others - but that I'm patently looking to steer clear of on BOTH sides.  None of what I'm saying is to say "better" or "worse"; that's my entire point. Not everything IS better or worse, it just is. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1790 on: April 07, 2018, 11:38:03 PM »
The 'shutting down the conversation' happens in both directions, as I see it.  I don't think it has to.

Sometimes it may also do with terminology.  Not too many pages back, someone used the words 'the system of white supremacy' and see how quickly the conversation was attempted to be chilled by the responses after that.  That person became 'part of the problem' immediately.  Not so different than calling someone a 'racist' chills the discussion.
 
EB I don't think anyone here is making this about you and your contribution to this thread.  I hope we're talking about what we see in a typical conversation about race.  I completely agree with your point that sometimes being in the middle of something can make one less objective, and objectivity is valuable and necessary part of any discussion.  And it seems that here you are at least open to the idea that the inherent bias - call it privilege for lack of a better word - that many of us share can also break down the discussion when we don't recognize it in ourselves or at least admit that it even exists.  You are correct, it doesn't need to be a contest.

So how do we have a dicussion about race that both captures the subjective experience of the individual (or group) but maintains the objectivity necessary to be productive?

Personally, what I find myself struggling with is that while I understand that I have my inherent bias and 'privilege' I'm not always aware of where it shows up.  I feel like the saying, "How do stupid people know they are stupid?"  If I am not always aware of it when it occurs, or if I'm not open to having it pointed out to me when it does occur, how can I be sure that I'm being fair in my POV?

Be careful with assuming where the "chilling" is coming from.  I was one of the persons that reacted strongly to the "system of white supremacy" language, for the exact reason you are saying; it is such a forceful statement, and relies on such firm ASSUMPTIONS that it tends to chill contrary conversation.  I know from personal experience that many of my positions on this subject are automatically assumed by some to be racist.   There's a very strong trend in this country that "If you're not with us, you're against us".  Trump was called out by many on the left for not disavowing the racists in Virginia, then when he did, it wasn't fast enough.   Since when do we have to ACTIVELY disavow in order to not be considered an advocate?   I think racism in any form is narrow, backwards, limiting thinking.   I think it is an unnecessary and negative limiter.  If I don't sell my wares to blacks, I have reduced my potential sales (and potential profit).  If I don't sell my house to blacks, I'm limiting my options and by definition limiting the demand, and therefore price, of my home.  For me personally, if I don't date black women, I'm excluding a significant number of beautiful, talented, and smart women from my dating pool (though I recognize that a true racist might not see them in that light). 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1791 on: April 07, 2018, 11:56:31 PM »
^ I like all of what you said, Barto, and again, I agree we need all kinds of voices at the table, though some voices will at times probably prove to be more right than other voices. I guess that's what real debate is. I am curious, though, about what you meant exactly by labeling your perspective in certain dialogues as 'objective,' or at least more objective? While I think we can all strive to be as accurate as possible, no one is completely objective, and, in fact, I believe we should all be questioning our own biases and objectivity constantly. And frankly, you seem like the type of person who does exactly that, so I'm curious about what you meant... maybe I am just not understanding your perspective.

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I'm a pretty dispassionate fellow by nature. I don't have much trouble taking my own feelings out of the equation. As you said, I'm not going to be completely unbiased by something important to me. Love or hatred of the subject at hand might intervene if it's something important to me. Discussing your kids or your experiences with race relations won't be an issue, though. Tact might well be, but I'll certainly do my best to provide an unbiased and dispassionate opinion.

I suppose at some level you're correct, that it's not possible to totally rid one's opinions of emotion, but I think it's still safe to say that I can render a more objective opinion about your kids or your experiences with race than you can. Not necessarily more valuable, but certainly more fair.

I like to think I'm sitting in the same booth at the diner as el Barto.  Everyone does have their biases, but not all biases are created equal.  I tend to look at things through economic lenses; I also pretty actively try to remove the emotion from arguments (it's why I'm not head over heels in amazement over the political activism of the kids in Florida.  Any political activism is probably a good thing, but personally, emotional, tear-filled pleas from a 17-year-old who can't actually vote yet to "Do something or we'll vote you out!" is basically noise to me).  Some might, maybe even rightly, call that my bias.   But that's a bias of standard.   It's not the same as applying facts in an emotional, self-serving way to a standard.   

I don't feel a shred of guilt over slavery.  It was wrong, it was tragic, it was unconscionable, but it is what it is.  We do better the next time.   I don't understand that idea of feeling guilty about something that intangible.  I'm sorry if this is rude, it's not meant to be, but Contest_Sanity, when you express a feeling of guilt over slavery, and the arc of history (which I, respectfully, do not accept in the same way you do) then that to me calls into question the conclusions that are drawn from it.  Those commercials for St. Jude's Children's Hospital always show the kids before they show Marlo Thomas, precisely because the emotion - at least in part, the guilt - tends to elicit a positive (to the cause) response.   Same with the pet shelter ads that show the cute little doggies basically begging you for a donation.   

Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1792 on: April 08, 2018, 02:08:07 PM »
The 'shutting down the conversation' happens in both directions, as I see it.  I don't think it has to.

Sometimes it may also do with terminology.  Not too many pages back, someone used the words 'the system of white supremacy' and see how quickly the conversation was attempted to be chilled by the responses after that.  That person became 'part of the problem' immediately.  Not so different than calling someone a 'racist' chills the discussion.
 
EB I don't think anyone here is making this about you and your contribution to this thread.  I hope we're talking about what we see in a typical conversation about race.  I completely agree with your point that sometimes being in the middle of something can make one less objective, and objectivity is valuable and necessary part of any discussion.  And it seems that here you are at least open to the idea that the inherent bias - call it privilege for lack of a better word - that many of us share can also break down the discussion when we don't recognize it in ourselves or at least admit that it even exists.  You are correct, it doesn't need to be a contest.

So how do we have a dicussion about race that both captures the subjective experience of the individual (or group) but maintains the objectivity necessary to be productive?

Personally, what I find myself struggling with is that while I understand that I have my inherent bias and 'privilege' I'm not always aware of where it shows up.  I feel like the saying, "How do stupid people know they are stupid?"  If I am not always aware of it when it occurs, or if I'm not open to having it pointed out to me when it does occur, how can I be sure that I'm being fair in my POV?

Be careful with assuming where the "chilling" is coming from.  I was one of the persons that reacted strongly to the "system of white supremacy" language, for the exact reason you are saying; it is such a forceful statement, and relies on such firm ASSUMPTIONS that it tends to chill contrary conversation. 

I was being extremely careful with my words here and not making assumptions.  But thanks for your concern.  As I said, it was the terminology 'system of white supremacy' that cause the multiple responses which set out to try to chill the discussion.  It has already been established multiple times on this thread that contest_sanity has been an exemplary contributor and his efforts have been appreciated.  Back on page 47 he was told he was "part of the problem" for using that phrase.  Several others seemed to agree with that.  Thankfully that didn't chill his continued participation on this thread.  But it certainly could have.

The word 'racist' is also forceful and tends to rely on firm assumptions, wouldn't you say?  I see no difference in your distinction here.  I just don't.

What I was trying to say - maybe not well enough - is that certain words or phrases can cause knee-jerk responses in others.  Sometimes this is known ahead of time and used on purpose, and sometimes these words or phrases are meant innocently enough but still provoke the strong response nontheless.  I include myself here.  This observation isn't meant to serve as finger pointing.  It is mean to show that we all do it/have done it.  Can we recognize it in ourselves when it happens?  That remains to be seen.

But if the point is to have productive conversations without 'chilling' them, then I think this part within these discussions should be carefully considered.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1793 on: April 08, 2018, 02:32:12 PM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1794 on: April 08, 2018, 02:45:09 PM »
I was being extremely careful with my words here and not making assumptions.  But thanks for your concern.  As I said, it was the terminology 'system of white supremacy' that cause the multiple responses which set out to try to chill the discussion.  It has already been established multiple times on this thread that contest_sanity has been an exemplary contributor and his efforts have been appreciated.  Back on page 47 he was told he was "part of the problem" for using that phrase.  Several others seemed to agree with that.  Thankfully that didn't chill his continued participation on this thread.  But it certainly could have.
It very nearly did. Luckily for you guys, I was on Spring Break, with a lot of time on my hands that I don't normally have during a regular week, and also a lot of grading that needed doing but that I really wanted to procrastinate on.


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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1795 on: April 08, 2018, 02:51:06 PM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/

To be fair....I did the same thing...but my friends and I were often "86ed" as it was called.    We usually weren't causing a ton of problems, but when you're not buying anything, you don't need to be much more than an irritant. 

I still remember my best friend walking into a Hickory Farms store, picking up the largest summer sausage he could find, and at the top of his lungs screaming "WELL *THIS* LOOKS FAMILIAR!!!"    It seemed funny when we were 14.    But we just made a game out of doing little annoying things like that all day long.  When we got kicked out of one mall, we'd go to another.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1796 on: April 08, 2018, 02:56:06 PM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/

To be fair....I did the same thing...but my friends and I were often "86ed" as it was called.    We usually weren't causing a ton of problems, but when you're not buying anything, you don't need to be much more than an irritant. 

I still remember my best friend walking into a Hickory Farms store, picking up the largest summer sausage he could find, and at the top of his lungs screaming "WELL *THIS* LOOKS FAMILIAR!!!"    It seemed funny when we were 14.    But we just made a game out of doing little annoying things like that all day long.  When we got kicked out of one mall, we'd go to another.

What you described was causing an annoying disturbance.

These guys seemed like they were just simply there.

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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1797 on: April 08, 2018, 03:15:26 PM »
I don't feel a shred of guilt over slavery.  It was wrong, it was tragic, it was unconscionable, but it is what it is.  We do better the next time.   I don't understand that idea of feeling guilty about something that intangible.  I'm sorry if this is rude, it's not meant to be, but Contest_Sanity, when you express a feeling of guilt over slavery, and the arc of history (which I, respectfully, do not accept in the same way you do) then that to me calls into question the conclusions that are drawn from it.  Those commercials for St. Jude's Children's Hospital always show the kids before they show Marlo Thomas, precisely because the emotion - at least in part, the guilt - tends to elicit a positive (to the cause) response.   Same with the pet shelter ads that show the cute little doggies basically begging you for a donation.
I guess we can go back and forth, round and round, regarding the historical racial timeline I have set forth, and whether or not each step was as bad as I'm trying to cite evidence for. Maybe this is our biggest place of disagreement. Because if what I have laid out is close to accurate, then part of the point post-slavery is that we DID NOT do it better next time. Jim Crow/convict leasing/segregation/housing discrimination/mass incarceration -- these all seem, to me, like we're not really "doing it better," at least not by a whole lot. Now whether, as a white person, I should feel "guilty" about this timeline is perhaps not the most important question. Instead, to me, it's: has our combined history set in motion a complex social, racial, economic process that probably makes things easier for me as a white person?

Even if I'm a poor white person, am I still less likely to be racially profiled? Less likely to be policed aggressively without cause? Less likely to be discriminated against in hiring practices? Is there not some privilege here, and, if so, should I do something differently? Can I even do anything to make any change? If so, what? These are questions that I'm constantly asking myself, and you can probably guess how I have started to answer at least some of them. If someone else doesn't feel the same way, you know, I guess it is what it is. But my experience is that many white people are not aware of a lot of this history, and they have not asked if this history might be relevant to them.

Perhaps everyone in this thread has more critically considered racial questions than some of my other friends and dialogue partners. Cool. But, to take it back to the impetus of my participation in this thread, I feel like, after a black man is shot dead holding a cell phone, considering everything that I believe has led us to this point, people should at least have some sympathy for the protests in the streets.

To put it crudely, and at the risk of oversimplifying, with hundreds of years of state-sanctioned violence, murder, and plunder of minorities (but the black race in particular), maybe at the next protest we can still be annoyed with encountering a traffic jam but perhaps also understand where those protestors are coming from in their message... rather than simply throwing the message away because we completely rule out civil disobedience as a mode of discourse in our country, a discourse which, by the way, was for hundreds of years one of the most impactful modes of "free speech" many minority groups had (considering the history of the ballot in this country).

Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1798 on: April 08, 2018, 03:26:53 PM »
I have very mixed feelings on protests causing traffic jams.  On the one hand, the purpose of causing delays and annoyance are obviously meant to be very symbolic.  I get that.  On the other, if you or a loved one couldn't get help for an emergency because an ambulance couldn't get through, that could set up some very tragic unintended consequences that could hurt the movement more than it helps.  Personally, I wouldn't block streets or traffic.

But I saw this photo the other day and it made me think of protests and the nature of being inconvenience or annoyed because of them.


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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1799 on: April 08, 2018, 05:44:43 PM »
Apples and oranges.

People eating in a diner are not preventing others from going about their daily routine.   Or from earning a living for their family for that matter.   

This is not a small difference.   It makes ALL the difference.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1800 on: April 08, 2018, 08:22:51 PM »
How about preventing people from getting into a basketball game? I liked that the Sac Kings owner has decided to partner with local protest organizations, despite the financial and logistical difficulty they caused him? I liked that he said that things can't just continue on: business as usual. Maybe (from the perspective of the protestors) if business as usual continues to result in negative outcomes, disproportionately, for minority groups -- well, maybe business as usual SHOULD be disrupted...

Or, to put it differently, if we as the white community felt like our sons and daughters, young men and young women, were often being shot down in the streets by the police (and that our race played a significant role in the problem), how might we find ourselves protesting? It's easy to disagree with someone's protest when one does not see the need for that protest. Maybe we could at least disagree but still see the need somehow...

   

Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1801 on: April 08, 2018, 08:40:07 PM »
People eating in a diner are not preventing others from going about their daily routine.   Or from earning a living for their family for that matter.   

This is not a small difference.   It makes ALL the difference.

The people eating at the diner are not the protesters in that photo, in my mind.  The crowd around them appear to be the ones protesting their ability to sit and eat a meal at a lunch counter in a so-called free society. 

Ask yourself how easy it would be for those eating to just get up and go about their daily routine after that meal.  Or from going off to earn their living later that day.

Perspective is the difference there.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 09:18:04 PM by Harmony »

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1802 on: April 08, 2018, 08:56:58 PM »
Even if I'm a poor white person, am I still less likely to be racially profiled? Less likely to be policed aggressively without cause? Less likely to be discriminated against in hiring practices? Is there not some privilege here, and, if so, should I do something differently? Can I even do anything to make any change? If so, what? These are questions that I'm constantly asking myself, and you can probably guess how I have started to answer at least some of them.

Genuinely curious how you are answerign those questions, if you do not mind sharing. 

Or, to put it differently, if we as the white community felt like our sons and daughters, young men and young women, were often being shot down in the streets by the police (and that our race played a significant role in the problem), how might we find ourselves protesting?

Protest in front of city hall? The police station? The mayor's house? Seattle's last protest where 7(!) people shut down two highways for hours didn't draw an official response from the mayor's hours for hours. Block her from getting out of her driveway and you'll get her attention a hell of a lot faster.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1803 on: April 08, 2018, 11:15:02 PM »
The 'shutting down the conversation' happens in both directions, as I see it.  I don't think it has to.

Sometimes it may also do with terminology.  Not too many pages back, someone used the words 'the system of white supremacy' and see how quickly the conversation was attempted to be chilled by the responses after that.  That person became 'part of the problem' immediately.  Not so different than calling someone a 'racist' chills the discussion.
 
EB I don't think anyone here is making this about you and your contribution to this thread.  I hope we're talking about what we see in a typical conversation about race.  I completely agree with your point that sometimes being in the middle of something can make one less objective, and objectivity is valuable and necessary part of any discussion.  And it seems that here you are at least open to the idea that the inherent bias - call it privilege for lack of a better word - that many of us share can also break down the discussion when we don't recognize it in ourselves or at least admit that it even exists.  You are correct, it doesn't need to be a contest.

So how do we have a dicussion about race that both captures the subjective experience of the individual (or group) but maintains the objectivity necessary to be productive?

Personally, what I find myself struggling with is that while I understand that I have my inherent bias and 'privilege' I'm not always aware of where it shows up.  I feel like the saying, "How do stupid people know they are stupid?"  If I am not always aware of it when it occurs, or if I'm not open to having it pointed out to me when it does occur, how can I be sure that I'm being fair in my POV?

Be careful with assuming where the "chilling" is coming from.  I was one of the persons that reacted strongly to the "system of white supremacy" language, for the exact reason you are saying; it is such a forceful statement, and relies on such firm ASSUMPTIONS that it tends to chill contrary conversation. 

I was being extremely careful with my words here and not making assumptions.  But thanks for your concern.  As I said, it was the terminology 'system of white supremacy' that cause the multiple responses which set out to try to chill the discussion.  It has already been established multiple times on this thread that contest_sanity has been an exemplary contributor and his efforts have been appreciated.  Back on page 47 he was told he was "part of the problem" for using that phrase.  Several others seemed to agree with that.  Thankfully that didn't chill his continued participation on this thread.  But it certainly could have.

The word 'racist' is also forceful and tends to rely on firm assumptions, wouldn't you say?  I see no difference in your distinction here.  I just don't.

What I was trying to say - maybe not well enough - is that certain words or phrases can cause knee-jerk responses in others.  Sometimes this is known ahead of time and used on purpose, and sometimes these words or phrases are meant innocently enough but still provoke the strong response nontheless.  I include myself here.  This observation isn't meant to serve as finger pointing.  It is mean to show that we all do it/have done it.  Can we recognize it in ourselves when it happens?  That remains to be seen.

But if the point is to have productive conversations without 'chilling' them, then I think this part within these discussions should be carefully considered.

All I was saying is that when it comes to "racism", forceful statements on BOTH sides have the power to chill the conversation.  You were only referencing the responses as having the chilling effect; if I misunderstood you, my apologies.   I know I responded to the phrase strongly, but never with the intention of "chilling" anything.   Both in public and in private (PM) I've done nothing but encourage C_S to bring more of his thoughts to the table.   It's a fascinating topic, and he does an amazing job of presenting his ideas. 

But when you posit the idea that "XYZ" is "racist", there is, in America circa 2018, a pretty significant group pf people that will interpret any defense of XYZ, on any grounds and in any context, as de facto "racism".  Since to that same group, and many others, the idea of being a "racist" is a veritable death knell - did you see the big arena tour that Phil Anselmo announced yesterday?  Did you catch Michael Richards hit TV show last night? - the idea of even erroneously being labeled a "racist" is enough to chill conversation.   

For example, I'll usually discuss politics with anyone, anywhere, and this is the one subject that I'm glad I'm - relatively speaking, anyway - anonymous.  Not that I'm embarrassed of my position - far from it, because I've thought it through and I can articulate it reasonably well - but because it's just not worth it to me to have people in my work, or in my daughter's school, taking the "Letterman" approach to analyzing my position.

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1804 on: April 08, 2018, 11:43:59 PM »
I don't feel a shred of guilt over slavery.  It was wrong, it was tragic, it was unconscionable, but it is what it is.  We do better the next time.   I don't understand that idea of feeling guilty about something that intangible.  I'm sorry if this is rude, it's not meant to be, but Contest_Sanity, when you express a feeling of guilt over slavery, and the arc of history (which I, respectfully, do not accept in the same way you do) then that to me calls into question the conclusions that are drawn from it.  Those commercials for St. Jude's Children's Hospital always show the kids before they show Marlo Thomas, precisely because the emotion - at least in part, the guilt - tends to elicit a positive (to the cause) response.   Same with the pet shelter ads that show the cute little doggies basically begging you for a donation.
I guess we can go back and forth, round and round, regarding the historical racial timeline I have set forth, and whether or not each step was as bad as I'm trying to cite evidence for. Maybe this is our biggest place of disagreement. Because if what I have laid out is close to accurate, then part of the point post-slavery is that we DID NOT do it better next time. Jim Crow/convict leasing/segregation/housing discrimination/mass incarceration -- these all seem, to me, like we're not really "doing it better," at least not by a whole lot. Now whether, as a white person, I should feel "guilty" about this timeline is perhaps not the most important question. Instead, to me, it's: has our combined history set in motion a complex social, racial, economic process that probably makes things easier for me as a white person?

It's not his quote (it's from a preacher named Theodore Parker, from around 1810 or so), but MLK made it famous:  "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."   None of this happens over-night.   We live in a drive-through, fast-food, 1 gigabyte download speed age.   We're talking 150 years.  Some of the earliest records of Jews being persecuted come from 100, 200 BC.  Persecution persisted throughout the second millennium; perhaps the most infamous "event" of persecution occurred only 75 years ago.   I think that some perspective is in order here before we throw in the towel and decide that we're a lost cause and there is no hope. 

Say what you want about that arc, I still maintain that you are searching for a continuity that the underlying assumptions do not support.  The idea of a systemic process for buying and selling human beings in the town square - only humans of color, and only BY white humans - is not at all the same as ONE police officer equating, in a split second, "black" with "danger".     You've talked about the housing process of the mid-20th century being "systemically racist"; the last three mortgages I've applied for, there is literally no way that the lender could or would know whether I was white or black.  I've already mentioned the study regarding traffic stops here in Connecticut that seemed to show a preference for pulling over blacks, and yet, under further scrutiny, it was just as likely that the cop didn't know the race of the driver before initiating the stop.  Granted, from the point that race was known the path of the transaction could have been different, but we won't know that without deeper scrutiny, which is really where I'm coming from here more than anything. 

Quote
Even if I'm a poor white person, am I still less likely to be racially profiled? Less likely to be policed aggressively without cause? Less likely to be discriminated against in hiring practices? Is there not some privilege here, and, if so, should I do something differently? Can I even do anything to make any change? If so, what? These are questions that I'm constantly asking myself, and you can probably guess how I have started to answer at least some of them. If someone else doesn't feel the same way, you know, I guess it is what it is. But my experience is that many white people are not aware of a lot of this history, and they have not asked if this history might be relevant to them.

But what is "likely"?   If there is even ONE racist cop out there - and I can virtually guarantee you that there is somewhere - you win.  Even one case is "less likely".  That doesn't necessarily translate into "privilege".    Because there are an infinite number of other variables that drive that as well.  I'm an attorney; there are people that will dismiss me right out the gate on that fact alone.   I'm not kidding here (though I am trying to be light-hearted a little) but when I was post-divorce, pre-current wife, I was on Match; there were far more women that passed me over because I'm 5'8" than would have if I was black.  At some point, we have to acknowledge that while "zero" is the goal, "zero" is not the measure of "success".   

Quote
To put it crudely, and at the risk of oversimplifying, with hundreds of years of state-sanctioned violence, murder, and plunder of minorities (but the black race in particular), maybe at the next protest we can still be annoyed with encountering a traffic jam but perhaps also understand where those protestors are coming from in their message... rather than simply throwing the message away because we completely rule out civil disobedience as a mode of discourse in our country, a discourse which, by the way, was for hundreds of years one of the most impactful modes of "free speech" many minority groups had (considering the history of the ballot in this country).

Sure.  Fine.  Except the odds are that those that are willing to "understand" already understood, and those that just swear at the traffic jam aren't really interested in the underlying message to begin with.  Though again I'll say, in a country that has found it's way to nominating, electing, and RE-electing an African American to what is arguably the most powerful position on the planet - or to be fair to our Chinese, English, and Russian friends, top five - I think you're underselling the power of the vote in this country today.   Ironically, Trump is the proof of that. 

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1805 on: April 08, 2018, 11:51:38 PM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/
I think the question you should ask is if Harmony v1984 could do the same thing in a modern urban mall and share the same fate. I'm pretty confident that 1984 Barto would probably get the same treatment, even just for loitering. Hell, I'm not sure 2018 Barto wouldn't. I still get followed about from time to time , but it's not very common anymore. In this case race might have been the reason they were selected, but I think there was a deeper issue going on that led to them cracking down on loitering.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1806 on: April 08, 2018, 11:58:43 PM »
Or, to put it differently, if we as the white community felt like our sons and daughters, young men and young women, were often being shot down in the streets by the police (and that our race played a significant role in the problem), how might we find ourselves protesting? It's easy to disagree with someone's protest when one does not see the need for that protest. Maybe we could at least disagree but still see the need somehow...

Look, good conversation, great back-and-forth, and I think we're all learning something, but that's awful over-dramatic...

987 people were shot by police in 2017.  963 in 2016.  That's 0.000304% of the population.   This is ALL races, ALL reasons.   In 2017, 223 were black (blacks comprise 12.5% of the population, and 22.5% of the deaths) and 236 were mentally ill (24%/12%).   940 were men (over 95%/49%).   https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/

Okay, I get it, "one life is too many" (which given that there is at least some percentage of cop-involved shootings that are legit is in itself an over-dramaticizing of the issue) but this is hardly "being shot down in the streets by the police".   If you have family that lived through Russia in the late 1910's, or Poland in the 1930's, you know about LITERALLY being "shot down in the streets by police".  And given that there are on average about 60 MILLION people a year that have encounters with police every year, none of this is "often".

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1807 on: April 09, 2018, 12:02:43 AM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/
I think the question you should ask is if Harmony v1984 could do the same thing in a modern urban mall and share the same fate. I'm pretty confident that 1984 Barto would probably get the same treatment, even just for loitering. Hell, I'm not sure 2018 Barto wouldn't. I still get followed about from time to time , but it's not very common anymore. In this case race might have been the reason they were selected, but I think there was a deeper issue going on that led to them cracking down on loitering.

But you're shifty, so you're not a good example.    (I'm kidding.)

What do you think that deeper issue is?   Are you saying it's a reaction to ideas like "If you see something, say something"?

Offline jammindude

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1808 on: April 09, 2018, 11:14:48 AM »
Another example of systematic racism. Glad these bozos got caught. But they tend to be like cockroaches....for every one you DO see....


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Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1809 on: April 09, 2018, 11:31:17 AM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/
I think the question you should ask is if Harmony v1984 could do the same thing in a modern urban mall and share the same fate. I'm pretty confident that 1984 Barto would probably get the same treatment, even just for loitering. Hell, I'm not sure 2018 Barto wouldn't. I still get followed about from time to time , but it's not very common anymore. In this case race might have been the reason they were selected, but I think there was a deeper issue going on that led to them cracking down on loitering.

But - and I assume you read the link - if that were the case then why is the mall HR dept releasing statements saying it was "very wrong"?  The executive VP of HR with the mall property company, "...the fact that they were expelled from the property and told to get out and never come back was not only unprofessional but was also completely wrong."  They are also saying they are retraining their security teams.

The woman who lodged the complaint on behalf of the teens noted they, "stood out because they looked so good" "stylish, calm, and mature".  Sure that could've been a coincidence that she happened to see them in a few moments of good behavior between the shop-lifting and cruising chicks aspect of their behavior.   :P

FWIW, Harmony v1984 definitely loitered at the mall.  That is where the kids hung out in my town.  Almost every angsty teen movie from the 80s has a shoot inside of a mall.  I'm not saying we never did anything wrong or acted like the fools we were.  But I never felt unwelcomed there by any store and neither did my friends.  I was certainly never asked to leave.

Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1810 on: April 09, 2018, 11:31:37 AM »
Another example of systematic racism.

People, when you post a link and come to an entirely different conclusion than the person who actually authored the cited article, it's hard to have a genuine discussion...

Quote
Meaning that even though Toyota’s markup policy didn’t inherently discriminate against some people, it did allow dealers to vary prices. And that variation increased when a person was black, a Pacific Islander, or Asian.


Offline sylvan

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1811 on: April 09, 2018, 11:38:56 AM »
Harmony: (regarding the mall incident) Well, nobody is arguing that RACISM doesn't exist. I think we can all see that's alive and well, in people of all colors. Unfortunately people in positions of "power", regardless of how important or great that power is, will allow, or even call on that racism, to effect their judgement and decision making.


Offline El Barto

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1812 on: April 09, 2018, 11:57:24 AM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/
I think the question you should ask is if Harmony v1984 could do the same thing in a modern urban mall and share the same fate. I'm pretty confident that 1984 Barto would probably get the same treatment, even just for loitering. Hell, I'm not sure 2018 Barto wouldn't. I still get followed about from time to time , but it's not very common anymore. In this case race might have been the reason they were selected, but I think there was a deeper issue going on that led to them cracking down on loitering.

But - and I assume you read the link - if that were the case then why is the mall HR dept releasing statements saying it was "very wrong"?  The executive VP of HR with the mall property company, "...the fact that they were expelled from the property and told to get out and never come back was not only unprofessional but was also completely wrong."  They are also saying they are retraining their security teams.

The woman who lodged the complaint on behalf of the teens noted they, "stood out because they looked so good" "stylish, calm, and mature".  Sure that could've been a coincidence that she happened to see them in a few moments of good behavior between the shop-lifting and cruising chicks aspect of their behavior.   :P

FWIW, Harmony v1984 definitely loitered at the mall.  That is where the kids hung out in my town.  Almost every angsty teen movie from the 80s has a shoot inside of a mall.  I'm not saying we never did anything wrong or acted like the fools we were.  But I never felt unwelcomed there by any store and neither did my friends.  I was certainly never asked to leave.
My point was that the times have changed. I suspect you and I are roundabouts the same age. I certainly loitered around the mall, as well. My hunch is that what was acceptable in 1984 wouldn't be nowadays.

To answer your question, I wasn't there so I have no idea how egregious this was. It's possible that it was very wrong and a sincere heartfelt apology was offered. It's also possible that it wasn't and they apologized because they'd be damn fools not to. In 2018 you apologize whether you were wrong or not because to do otherwise is social suicide. Hell, if you've absolutely done nothing wrong, make up something to apologize for.
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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1813 on: April 09, 2018, 12:10:00 PM »
Oh I see where you were going now.  I read that completely wrong.  LoL.  And TBH, I haven't really walked around a mall for probably close to 5 years now.  So you are probably right, I have no idea how much things might have changed.  Maybe teenagers in groups aren't welcome there any longer.  I wouldn't know.

And I do understand your point about apologizing to keep a non-issue from becoming a trending topic on Twitter or whatever.  But this guy's statement seemed to be pretty all encompassing for a simple gesture to stop bad PR.  At least to me.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1814 on: April 09, 2018, 12:36:54 PM »
We can argue statistics all day, as I found some numbers that were a bit worse than what Stadler posted earlier.




Source: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

But I don't know if we're getting anywhere. Stads suggested I was being over-dramatic in some of my language, and perhaps so, but I was trying to write from the perspective of how a lot of African Americans are interpreting police violence. Perhaps I could suggest that police violence is a tipping point: for black people (from their POV), having already endured SO much (see my historical timeline), being killed -- especially unarmed -- by the people we're paying to protect us, is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

WaPo journalist Wesley Lowery's fantastic book They Can't Kill Us All qualitatively (and with stats too) documents how Ferguson was just a racial time bomb waiting to explode due to how long the African American population had felt itself systematically mistreated. Michael Brown was the spark that lit the fires of protest and uprising. Tellingly, the DoJ investigated and corroborated the injustice in Ferguson.
*https://www.amazon.com/They-Cant-Kill-All-Baltimore/dp/0316312479
*https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/?utm_term=.a50ad7687832

So, why focus on police killings? Maybe because it's a breaking point? Maybe because we pay the police to protect us? Maybe because black distrust of/mistreatment by the police goes way back further in the racial timeline than simply Rodney King or even the 1960s?
*https://www.theroot.com/police-training-should-start-with-a-history-lesson-on-s-1795970036
*https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-29/policing-and-oppression-have-a-long-history

Lastly, since you mentioned the quote popularized by King about the arc of the universe bending towards justice: maybe, but maybe not... I'm not sure. But let me add an actual quote from him that many people do not like on this topic:

"I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard."

*https://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/riot-language-unheard-9-mlk-quotes-mainstream-media-wont-cite
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 04:06:30 PM by contest_sanity »

Offline Harmony

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1815 on: April 09, 2018, 04:20:56 PM »
We focus on inappropriate police actions for the same reasons we focus on pedophile priests and physicians that prey upon patients.  Because we are the most vulnerable to these particular professions.

We hold them up to different standards because they are sworn to uphold the oaths they take.  "First do no harm"  "To serve and protect" "whatever a priest's oath is, I don't know"

When trust in these people are vanquished, it is almost impossible to regain it.  And it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1816 on: April 10, 2018, 09:14:04 AM »
Black teens kicked out of mall for "loitering" and not engaging in the "shopping experience."   :huh:  I can think of countless times I walked around a mall without buying anything.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/water-tower-place-to-black-teens-kicked-out-of-mall-it-was-wrong-very-sorry/
I think the question you should ask is if Harmony v1984 could do the same thing in a modern urban mall and share the same fate. I'm pretty confident that 1984 Barto would probably get the same treatment, even just for loitering. Hell, I'm not sure 2018 Barto wouldn't. I still get followed about from time to time , but it's not very common anymore. In this case race might have been the reason they were selected, but I think there was a deeper issue going on that led to them cracking down on loitering.

But - and I assume you read the link - if that were the case then why is the mall HR dept releasing statements saying it was "very wrong"?  The executive VP of HR with the mall property company, "...the fact that they were expelled from the property and told to get out and never come back was not only unprofessional but was also completely wrong."  They are also saying they are retraining their security teams.

The woman who lodged the complaint on behalf of the teens noted they, "stood out because they looked so good" "stylish, calm, and mature".  Sure that could've been a coincidence that she happened to see them in a few moments of good behavior between the shop-lifting and cruising chicks aspect of their behavior.   :P

FWIW, Harmony v1984 definitely loitered at the mall.  That is where the kids hung out in my town.  Almost every angsty teen movie from the 80s has a shoot inside of a mall.  I'm not saying we never did anything wrong or acted like the fools we were.  But I never felt unwelcomed there by any store and neither did my friends.  I was certainly never asked to leave.

For all the reasons I've been talking  about for pages now; "racist" is literally the worst thing you can be called in America circa 2018 .   

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1817 on: April 10, 2018, 09:49:09 AM »
We can argue statistics all day, as I found some numbers that were a bit worse than what Stadler posted earlier.




Source: https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

But I don't know if we're getting anywhere. Stads suggested I was being over-dramatic in some of my language, and perhaps so, but I was trying to write from the perspective of how a lot of African Americans are interpreting police violence. Perhaps I could suggest that police violence is a tipping point: for black people (from their POV), having already endured SO much (see my historical timeline), being killed -- especially unarmed -- by the people we're paying to protect us, is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

WaPo journalist Wesley Lowery's fantastic book They Can't Kill Us All qualitatively (and with stats too) documents how Ferguson was just a racial time bomb waiting to explode due to how long the African American population had felt itself systematically mistreated. Michael Brown was the spark that lit the fires of protest and uprising. Tellingly, the DoJ investigated and corroborated the injustice in Ferguson.
*https://www.amazon.com/They-Cant-Kill-All-Baltimore/dp/0316312479
*https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/?utm_term=.a50ad7687832

So, why focus on police killings? Maybe because it's a breaking point? Maybe because we pay the police to protect us? Maybe because black distrust of/mistreatment by the police goes way back further in the racial timeline than simply Rodney King or even the 1960s?
*https://www.theroot.com/police-training-should-start-with-a-history-lesson-on-s-1795970036
*https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-10-29/policing-and-oppression-have-a-long-history

Lastly, since you mentioned the quote popularized by King about the arc of the universe bending towards justice: maybe, but maybe not... I'm not sure. But let me add an actual quote from him that many people do not like on this topic:

"I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard."

*https://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/riot-language-unheard-9-mlk-quotes-mainstream-media-wont-cite

I think Harmony is partially right (for example, the frequency of pedophilia in priests is actually comparable to that of the general population, but that doesn't stop people from assuming that the Catholic Church is basically the Italian branch of NAMBLA) but it goes deeper.   It's also because it's easy to make the case, and the cases are on the national news, which helps in spreading the word.   

Contest_Sanity, our numbers aren't different.   I don't object to your stats one bit.  I just think that argument is incomplete.      I used the "gen pop" comparison because it made a different point (I was saying that the differential was even greater for mentally ill); but if you're going to honestly and with integrity compare the black shootings by police to white shootings by police, you can't compare to the gen-pop number, but against the 60 million number, because that's the pool from which the shooting victims are taken.  What's the racial breakdown of that?   Until you know that, the idea of "3 times more likely" is moot.  I could say that blacks are "3x more likely to dunk a basketball in an NBA game".   Is that racist?   Does that say anything about race or ability, or segregation?  Of course not; blacks comprise about 67% of the NBA. It's pure math.   We don't have the data to do "pure math".    If - for whatever reason - the percentage of that poll is different than that of the gen-pop (and it could be, in either direction) then that is the comparison you want to make.

I think your numbers are helpful in terms of determining where to look next.  They are not determinative for the ultimate question, however.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1818 on: April 14, 2018, 10:46:16 AM »
And what even is: the ultimate question for this thread? Seriously asking, not even sure if I know the answer.

Also, despite my citing of statistics, this clip is much more indicative of my computational skills:

https://vimeo.com/65921206

Lastly, I will point out that it is precisely BECAUSE of the black lives (and other similar) movements, that WaPo decided to start keeping tabs on police shootings. Before them, and another couple sites like the one I referenced, there was very little data available. As Wesley Lowery makes clear in his book, this is insane when you consider the police are the only group in America often allowed to kill with impunity. By the way, whether you agree or not with where BLM and other groups stand, his book is a very detailed journalistic history of how such movements began in the wake of Ferguson.

*https://www.amazon.com/They-Cant-Kill-All-Baltimore/dp/0316312479

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Police brutality, looting and racism
« Reply #1819 on: April 14, 2018, 06:19:53 PM »
I think Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing is one of the most important movies ever made, regarding the questions of race relations in america and police brutality in particular.   The youtube channel screenprism posted this video today  https://youtu.be/qkvZqxjDjWk 

Did Mookie do the right thing? Why did he throw the thrashcan through the window of Sal's Pizzaria and why that might not even be the right question to ask.