Author Topic: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting  (Read 128613 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4445 on: July 09, 2019, 08:54:49 AM »
Bill Clinton issued a denial last night that he was ever anywhere near the guy's island, and he also gave details of the times he was on Epstein's plane. His account is at odds (severely) with news reports I've read that flight logs showed him taking something like 26 trips on the plane. Where's the truth? Who the hell knows? Personally I found some parts of his denial convincing, because one of the claims that has been made (without evidence) is that Bill Clinton visited the guy's island, ditched his Secret Service detail, and then had his way with some young women. I just don't find that believable. There's a great book called Within Arm's Length written by a former Secret Service agent who served on the Presidential Protection Unit under 3 presidents (Bush I, Clinton, Bush II). The way he tells it, it is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, for a President to ditch his security detail for any length of time, even when they've left office. A 10 minute walk along a beach is still observed from a distance by a crack team. The notion that Bill Clinton is flying off to exotic islands to take part in orgies is a little Alex Jonesy to me. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean I'd need to see some pretty thorough evidence to be persuaded by it. If someone as prominent as Bill Clinton has an appetite for prostitutes I'm sure there are ways to have them discreetly brought to him (take note Robert Kraft) rather than flying off to notorious playboy islands with his SS detail in tow. 

Trump I also don't think has anything to worry about in terms of illegalities. Obviously I don't know him, but this kind of thing just doesn't seem his style. That quote of his about Epstein will stick to him (as much as anything sticks to this guy), but whether there's an appetite to weaponise his former friendship with Epstein depends on who else is implicated. For all we know half the DNC were connected to the guy too and will want to bury this story as much as Trump will.

Sadly, I doubt the truth will ever come out. The original plea deal was disgraceful but completely unsurprising in the country of protecting the wealthy laws. It annoys me to see some Democrats now calling for Alex Acosta to resign as Labor Secretary. This shit is breaking news to them? They weren't disgusted at the time he was appointed? I don't have much time or respect for expedient outrage. This has been a scandal for over a decade, they'll forgive me if I don't take their theatrical disgust seriously now.

My prediction is that this story will be similar to the Jimmy Saville scandal we had in Britain a few years ago. For those who don't know, Saville was an English TV personality who hobnobbed with the great and the good of British society, including the Queen. Turned out he was a serial child abuser, one of the worst in British criminal history. The case threatened to implicate many powerful members of the British government, the Royal Family, the BBC (Saville's employer, who apparently knew of his behaviour), and other powerful celebrities. The Metropolitan Police Service launched Operation Yewtree, which led to the arrest and imprisonment of many British personalities, but almost exclusively from the entertainment industry. Nobody from the real power structures have so far been touched, even though there is masses of evidence that the highest echelons of the BBC knew what was happening.

I can see the same thing happening here. I won't be surprised if this story dies down a few months from now once a few token arrests have been made and Epstein's been given a proper sentence.
The details of the plea bargain Acosta signed off on were only recently made public. At the time of his confirmation I don't think they knew much about his involvement.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4446 on: July 09, 2019, 09:04:54 AM »
There are unsubstantiated rumors going around that Epstein had a labeled stash of child porn locked in a safe and that some or all of it my be for purposes of blackmail.

I'm not holding my breath that this is true but I'd sure love to see some rich and powerful child rapists' heads roll.  And by that I mean prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  It makes no difference to me what political party they are affiliated with.

Offline Kattelox

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4447 on: July 09, 2019, 09:12:56 AM »
There are unsubstantiated rumors going around that Epstein had a labeled stash of child porn locked in a safe and that some or all of it my be for purposes of blackmail.

I'm not holding my breath that this is true but I'd sure love to see some rich and powerful child rapists' heads roll.  And by that I mean prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  It makes no difference to me what political party they are affiliated with.

... that seems incredibly illegal and worth investigating if that's spreading?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4448 on: July 09, 2019, 09:37:28 AM »
There are unsubstantiated rumors going around that Epstein had a labeled stash of child porn locked in a safe and that some or all of it my be for purposes of blackmail.
I don't get why he would keep it in his own safe. If I'm keeping leverage on people to try and stay out of the big home I'm keeping in my lawyer's safe. Or some unknown 3rd party's. By keeping it at home it only serves as a time bomb for when you actually do get busted, which will undoubtedly enrage the people you need on your side. But then I'm not sure why he allowed himself to get busted in the first place.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4449 on: July 09, 2019, 09:54:40 AM »
I haven't followed this story, but as a Penn State alum, when the whole Gerry Sandusky pedophile thing went down, I read a lot into it because it meant something to me.  One thing I kept reading about but never able to find any substance was a large pedophile ring of super high up people and a lot of hush hush stuff was happening high up to keep that pedophile ring out of the Sandusky scandal so that the pedophile shit in PA ended with him and didn't go further.  Now that often read like conspiracy theory stuff, but seeing this news, makes me think maybe there is truth to those rumors.

Offline portnoy311

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4450 on: July 09, 2019, 11:55:45 AM »
I'm still at a loss on what has changed? I remember discussing this creep 4 years ago online and his ties to Clinton and Trump. None of what I've seen is new, unless we just have more concrete evidence than before.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4451 on: July 09, 2019, 02:32:54 PM »
There are unsubstantiated rumors going around that Epstein had a labeled stash of child porn locked in a safe and that some or all of it my be for purposes of blackmail.

I'm not holding my breath that this is true but I'd sure love to see some rich and powerful child rapists' heads roll.  And by that I mean prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  It makes no difference to me what political party they are affiliated with.

... that seems incredibly illegal and worth investigating if that's spreading?

It does to me too.  Of course some (not here) will argue that nude photos of 13-17 year old girls engaging in sex acts don't actually constitute child porn.  Don't get me started....

Here is one of the articles that describes the find:  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/08/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-charges.html

I don't get why he would keep it in his own safe. If I'm keeping leverage on people to try and stay out of the big home I'm keeping in my lawyer's safe. Or some unknown 3rd party's. By keeping it at home it only serves as a time bomb for when you actually do get busted, which will undoubtedly enrage the people you need on your side. But then I'm not sure why he allowed himself to get busted in the first place.

I wondered about that too.  Then I remembered:

1) There are plenty of dumb crook stories out there that describe how the perps own actions were responsible for their capture and conviction

2) He had enough money to have a double-secret safe built into a floor or wall or whatnot that he probably thought the feds wouldn't find

3) I never underestimate the ego of people like Epstein to convince himself that he can outsmart or pay off Johnny.  In other words, see number 1

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4452 on: July 11, 2019, 11:30:31 AM »
Bill Clinton issued a denial last night that he was ever anywhere near the guy's island, and he also gave details of the times he was on Epstein's plane. His account is at odds (severely) with news reports I've read that flight logs showed him taking something like 26 trips on the plane. Where's the truth? Who the hell knows? Personally I found some parts of his denial convincing, because one of the claims that has been made (without evidence) is that Bill Clinton visited the guy's island, ditched his Secret Service detail, and then had his way with some young women. I just don't find that believable. There's a great book called Within Arm's Length written by a former Secret Service agent who served on the Presidential Protection Unit under 3 presidents (Bush I, Clinton, Bush II). The way he tells it, it is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, for a President to ditch his security detail for any length of time, even when they've left office. A 10 minute walk along a beach is still observed from a distance by a crack team. The notion that Bill Clinton is flying off to exotic islands to take part in orgies is a little Alex Jonesy to me. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean I'd need to see some pretty thorough evidence to be persuaded by it. If someone as prominent as Bill Clinton has an appetite for prostitutes I'm sure there are ways to have them discreetly brought to him (take note Robert Kraft) rather than flying off to notorious playboy islands with his SS detail in tow. 

To this point, wasn't one of the main aspects of the Gennifer Flowers story that the security Bill had while governor was complicit in his affairs?   

Quote

Trump I also don't think has anything to worry about in terms of illegalities. Obviously I don't know him, but this kind of thing just doesn't seem his style. That quote of his about Epstein will stick to him (as much as anything sticks to this guy), but whether there's an appetite to weaponise his former friendship with Epstein depends on who else is implicated. For all we know half the DNC were connected to the guy too and will want to bury this story as much as Trump will.

Sadly, I doubt the truth will ever come out. The original plea deal was disgraceful but completely unsurprising in the country of protecting the wealthy laws. It annoys me to see some Democrats now calling for Alex Acosta to resign as Labor Secretary. This shit is breaking news to them? They weren't disgusted at the time he was appointed? I don't have much time or respect for expedient outrage. This has been a scandal for over a decade, they'll forgive me if I don't take their theatrical disgust seriously now.

My prediction is that this story will be similar to the Jimmy Saville scandal we had in Britain a few years ago. For those who don't know, Saville was an English TV personality who hobnobbed with the great and the good of British society, including the Queen. Turned out he was a serial child abuser, one of the worst in British criminal history. The case threatened to implicate many powerful members of the British government, the Royal Family, the BBC (Saville's employer, who apparently knew of his behaviour), and other powerful celebrities. The Metropolitan Police Service launched Operation Yewtree, which led to the arrest and imprisonment of many British personalities, but almost exclusively from the entertainment industry. Nobody from the real power structures have so far been touched, even though there is masses of evidence that the highest echelons of the BBC knew what was happening.

I can see the same thing happening here. I won't be surprised if this story dies down a few months from now once a few token arrests have been made and Epstein's been given a proper sentence.

The problem with this stuff is that while the implicated want it to go away, it will forever and always have legs with the hoi polloi, who aren't interested in facts, aren't interested in logic, or trends or "style".   There are still people 100% convinced that the "grab 'em by the pussy" line was a taped confession of a sex crime, and for which Trump should be prosecuted and jailed (a failing proposition on about five levels, and that's even ignoring that it was said in the abstract third person, not in the direct first person, so who's the victim?). 

It will be interesting to me who raises this in the debates, given that there is at least one candidate, maybe two (the City is different than the District) with ties to NY, the entity that is pursuing this.

I do know this; politics is an ugly game, and there's not a lot of shame involved, so the idea that "I'm not going to accuse you of lying when my hands are unclean", well.... just look at Hillary and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.  Neither is shy about using the very tactics they villify Trump over. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #4453 on: July 11, 2019, 01:11:21 PM »
Bill Clinton issued a denial last night that he was ever anywhere near the guy's island, and he also gave details of the times he was on Epstein's plane. His account is at odds (severely) with news reports I've read that flight logs showed him taking something like 26 trips on the plane. Where's the truth? Who the hell knows? Personally I found some parts of his denial convincing, because one of the claims that has been made (without evidence) is that Bill Clinton visited the guy's island, ditched his Secret Service detail, and then had his way with some young women. I just don't find that believable. There's a great book called Within Arm's Length written by a former Secret Service agent who served on the Presidential Protection Unit under 3 presidents (Bush I, Clinton, Bush II). The way he tells it, it is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, for a President to ditch his security detail for any length of time, even when they've left office. A 10 minute walk along a beach is still observed from a distance by a crack team. The notion that Bill Clinton is flying off to exotic islands to take part in orgies is a little Alex Jonesy to me. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean I'd need to see some pretty thorough evidence to be persuaded by it. If someone as prominent as Bill Clinton has an appetite for prostitutes I'm sure there are ways to have them discreetly brought to him (take note Robert Kraft) rather than flying off to notorious playboy islands with his SS detail in tow. 

To this point, wasn't one of the main aspects of the Gennifer Flowers story that the security Bill had while governor was complicit in his affairs?   
Bill's security as governor would have been the Arkansas highway patrol. I suspect his guys would have done anything he asked in exchange for some of his leftovers. The secret service doesn't work that way, and I suspect there's a fair amount of time spent during protection detail training that's essentially "Saying No to Your Superiors 101."

That said, I suspect CBC would have records from any time he reentered the US. It probably wouldn't be too hard to figure out if he'd been to the Island or not.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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