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Online MirrorMask

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2019, 12:58:36 PM »
No disrespect because I don't make the comparison with mocking intentions, but it seems a bit like the explanation for how Santa Claus manages to deliver presents to all children in one night. "He'd have to go so fast that the sleigh would actually burn up!" "How big the sleigh has to be to contain all the presents?"... you can wave it all away with Christmas magic and Santa being Santa, he must have a way to bend time and a never ending sack to continously store gifts... just like in The Dark Knight Rises the answer to how come a penniless and abandoned Bruce Wayne managed, from the other side of the world where he was prisoner in a pit, to come back to Gotham. "Well, he's Batman, he must have did it somehow".

Well, sure.  But as in any area of life, you don't start with the most complex, difficult, hard to understand areas first.  You wouldn't jump into trying to understand and develop an interstellar travel project if you didn't have a fundamental understanding of basic scientific principles that built, and built, and built into understanding increasingly more complex subjects. 

Approaching belief in God that way is similarly illogical.  Rather, you start with what can be proved and corroborated and go from there.  For the early Hebrews being told to enter Canaan and conquer it despite the people there being much more numerous and technologically advanced, they could trust in God to do that for them because of what they had seen him do in the ten plagues, the parting of the red sea, miraculously giving them food and water for about 40 years, and the other numerous miraculous occurrences they or their parents witnessed for themselves. 

In our present age, we can start on, for example, the corroborated eyewitness accounts of Jesus performing unexplainable miracles during his lifetime and being raised from the dead.

We build on those foundations to understand that the God we believe in truly CAN do anything.  And for those things that we cannot independently prove, it isn't a stretch to jump to "I can't explain HOW that happened because there are gaps in the evidence.  But I already know the source is trustworthy, and that God clearly has the ability to do that, so there's no reason to doubt."

Uh well, this was an enlightening way to understand better believers' point of view, thank you.

I think in the end that's what the real difference is between believers and non believers: the starting point and what can be considered, for lack of a better word, "proof" or not (of course not every single person in the world agrees that the New Testament events actually happened as they are described).

Let me put it this way: if I believe elves cause rain, I will have the evidence for the existance of elves the next time it's raining. And if you tell me that elves are not real when it's raining, when you're actually holding and umbrella, it will feel quite weird for me. Or, to make a more historical example, if other civilitazions tried to explain to the vikings that their god was the actual real one, and maybe this happened during a rainstorm, how foolish they must have looked? I mean, they're talking about this dude who died and rose from the dead while they're actually HEARING Thor beating his hammer!

BTW. about the 40 years, I believe that numbers were important to ancient civilizations and each number, or at least some specific numbers, held a precise meaning and importance. 3 was important, 4 was as well, so 7 which is the sum of 3 and 4 was even more important, and stuff like that. 40 also was important, that's why it rained for 40 days and night during the flood... they probably never meant all of this stuff literally, numbers were just a way to express more meaning. Like 12 multiplied for 12 is 144 and that was the number of the tribes of.... something, damn, can't remember at the moment. Numbers anyway were highly symbolic, so 40 probably meant just "a lot", and not exactly 40. Like 10,000 was another generic number to indicate "so many that you can't count them" and not literally 10,000 people.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2019, 01:00:57 PM »
I had to prove to myself by doing a lot of research that my faith has validity.  I find to have a strong faith you have to have a basis for what you believe in, not blind faith. Accurate knowledge is the key, but that takes patience and being open minded.
 I wonder if people spent their energy trying to prove Gods existence rather than dis-prove, they might be surprised at the results. What do we have to lose? 
That being said, I have a lot of friends/family/acquaintances that are agnostic or atheists and are good intelligent people, and I'm ok with it if they disagree with what I said above. We can always learn from each other in our quest for the truth. For me personally, the God side of things makes more sense.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2019, 01:28:07 PM »
I had to prove to myself by doing a lot of research that my faith has validity.  I find to have a strong faith you have to have a basis for what you believe in, not blind faith. Accurate knowledge is the key, but that takes patience and being open minded.
 I wonder if people spent their energy trying to prove Gods existence rather than dis-prove, they might be surprised at the results. What do we have to lose? 

Just curious. Through your research, what knowledge was gathered that proved to you that god existed?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2019, 01:52:47 PM »
my humble take is that faith has nothing to do with plausibility or logic.  To be clear that is not meant to be a dig against believers,  just that in my ideal world one could have faith and be scientific and those two things donít have to be in opposition.

I struggle with this. Take Noah's Ark for example. How can someone buy into that story and also believe in biology as we know it? How did penguins and kangaroos get onto the same boat as lions and buffalo? I mean physically, how did those animals get there? Did kangaroos swim across the ocean? Did penguins temporarily learn to fly to get to the ark? Did god turn off inbreeding effects for a few hundred years after the fact?

I feel like in order to have faith in that story, you have to turn a blind eye to everything we know about the animal kingdom and biology.

Only if you read every word literally and with no allowance for that age-old "get out of jail free" card that authors use:  "Thanks to so-and-so for the invaluable insight into [complex scientific idea]; any remaining mistakes are those of the author alone."

I struggled with this for LONG time, and ironically, I guess, it was a Catholic priest who helped me out.  It helps that the Catholic faith is less literal in it's interpretation of the Bible than some other branches of Christianity, but I'm at a point in my life that I find little or no anxiety or conflict between science and my faith.   

The problem is, of course, that we here in the States are subject to the politicizing of faith and so we hear about examples of people who believe the earth is literally a handful of thousands of years old in direct conflict with accepted science. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2019, 01:57:28 PM »
...if I'm not mistaken what he's saying sort of sounds like "intelligent design" and I don't go for that at all because that line of thinking is in opposition to science.     


How so?  Is it not possible that a supreme being flicked his Zippo and kicked off the "Big Bang" like a roman candle in the parking lot of a Slayer concert?

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2019, 01:58:00 PM »
I had to prove to myself by doing a lot of research that my faith has validity.  I find to have a strong faith you have to have a basis for what you believe in, not blind faith. Accurate knowledge is the key, but that takes patience and being open minded.
 I wonder if people spent their energy trying to prove Gods existence rather than dis-prove, they might be surprised at the results. What do we have to lose? 

Just curious. Through your research, what knowledge was gathered that proved to you that god existed?
Good question! I'll answer more later,  gotta get back to work..
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #111 on: January 08, 2019, 01:59:20 PM »
...if I'm not mistaken what he's saying sort of sounds like "intelligent design" and I don't go for that at all because that line of thinking is in opposition to science.     


How so?  Is it not possible that a supreme being flicked his Zippo and kicked off the "Big Bang" like a roman candle in the parking lot of a Slayer concert?
:rollin
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #112 on: January 08, 2019, 02:04:05 PM »
I'm going with Eric on this one and his comments on how overly complicated things are in the Bible for a God that is all powerful. He goes to the trouble of having Noah and his family build an arch during 40 years in which he transports 2 of every animal to that specific place, then floods the world to kill all the sinners, the makes the water disappear and guides the animals back to where they originally came from, which going by that comment should take a significant amount of time.
Also, as Chino points out, for several generations genetics have to work differently since inbreeding would  eventually end every single species in the planet.
If God is all powerful and can create and destroy life at will, why go through all this trouble?

Well, one alternative is that he's NOT going through all this trouble, and this is the flawed, imperfect human mind's interpretation - a piecing together, if you will - of the puzzle of the universe. 

I've written this before, so it's not a reaction of any one person's post here, but I know for me, as soon as the conversation turns to "well, it doesn't make sense to ME", I sort of ask myself, how did you get to presume that you are capable of understanding the "logic" and rationale of a being so powerful he/she created the entire universe as we know it?  I'm not suggesting I'm right here - not even close - but I think just like some of the arguments FOR a god are based on faulty assumptions, so are some of the arguments AGAINST a god (and I'm not even talking about the arguments that confuse "god" - an independent being - with "religion" - a human construct intended to describe that which some people might argue is indescribable.)   
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 07:38:35 AM by Stadler »

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2019, 02:29:45 PM »
A funny but clever take on the thing of being so more powerful that the reasons can't be understood:

http://weasowl.tumblr.com/post/175331118355/20thcenturyvole-probablybadrpgideas-if-cthulhu
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2019, 03:00:40 PM »
...if I'm not mistaken what he's saying sort of sounds like "intelligent design" and I don't go for that at all because that line of thinking is in opposition to science.     

How so?  Is it not possible that a supreme being flicked his Zippo and kicked off the "Big Bang" like a roman candle in the parking lot of a Slayer concert?
Where'd he get the Ronsonol?
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2019, 06:07:05 PM »
Quote from: Architeuthis link=topic=53032.msg2508247#msg2508247 date=154697
[/quote

Just curious. Through your research, what knowledge was gathered that proved to you that god existed?
Well there's alot of stuff that led to this conclusion. There's no way I could take years of knowledge and sqeeze it into a few posts. To find knowledge, we got to be willing to dig for it. That reminds me of a biblical text that sais " if you accept my sayings and treasure up my commandments by making your ear attentive to wisdom, and inclining your heart to discernment; moreover, if You call out for understanding and keep seeking for it as for silver. And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures, then you'll find the very knowledge of God, for from his mouth comes knowledge and discernment".   Proverbs ch 2: 1-6
I however, always believed in God before I studied the Bible. It just seemed common sense that there is someone/something far superior to humans to make all the diversity of life come about. After taking in knowledge of the scriptures, it just made me appreciate it even more.
One example, in the book of JOB ch 38, God humbles Job when he got high minded and asked Job a bunch of questions. Such as "where were you when I founded the earth, tell me if you think you understand, who set it's measurements in case you know, or who stretched a measuring line across it?"
Or this;  "Have you gone down to the sources of the sea or explored the deep waters, have you understood the vast expanse of the earth? Tell me if you know all this. In which direction does the light reside, and where is the place of darkness, that you should take it to It's territory and understand the paths to It's home? Do you know this because you were allready born and the number of your years is great?"
I like this one too; Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns? Do you know the laws governing the heavens, or can you impose their authority on the Earth? Can You raise your voice to the clouds to cause a flood of water over you? Can You send out lightning bolts, will they come and say to you, 'here we are!'  Who put wisdom within the clouds, or gave understanding to the sky phenomenon?"
There are many more examples in JOB ch 38 and 39 that are even better but too much to post.  I feel verses like that humbling myself. I could ask those very questions to myself, knowing my knowledge is so limited... Lol!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 02:15:50 AM by Architeuthis »
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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2019, 01:20:39 AM »
" Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns?"

Wow. This looks like the Blade Runner speech in a way  :D (And I mean it as a compliment, it's weird that such a nice passage is not "famous", I don't remember this ever being mentioned back when I was a kid and had catechism lessons). Cool stuff, even though the smartass reply would have been "Yeah, I can't do that, but you couldn't either avoid to have moving landmass that, with all the clashing of the tectonic plates, generate earthquakes who time and time again kill thousands of innocents".
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2019, 07:42:15 AM »
" Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns?"

Wow. This looks like the Blade Runner speech in a way  :D (And I mean it as a compliment, it's weird that such a nice passage is not "famous", I don't remember this ever being mentioned back when I was a kid and had catechism lessons). Cool stuff, even though the smartass reply would have been "Yeah, I can't do that, but you couldn't either avoid to have moving landmass that, with all the clashing of the tectonic plates, generate earthquakes who time and time again kill thousands of innocents".
How do you know they are innocents?   Or more directly, how do you know that 15 future Hitlers didn't die as well? 

Again, it seems illogical, but it's not straining the bounds of credulity to say that there are more variables than some schmoe posting on a prog band's unofficial forum can contemplate.   (I'm the schmoe, by the way, not you.)   Economics seem illogical to many, until they get more information.   How a touch-screen works is illogical to many, until they understand the science behind it.   I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that the ways and workings of a supreme being might operate similarly. 

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2019, 08:01:30 AM »
" Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns?"

Wow. This looks like the Blade Runner speech in a way  :D (And I mean it as a compliment, it's weird that such a nice passage is not "famous", I don't remember this ever being mentioned back when I was a kid and had catechism lessons). Cool stuff, even though the smartass reply would have been "Yeah, I can't do that, but you couldn't either avoid to have moving landmass that, with all the clashing of the tectonic plates, generate earthquakes who time and time again kill thousands of innocents".
How do you know they are innocents?   Or more directly, how do you know that 15 future Hitlers didn't die as well? 

1. Why would God be so horrified at the prospect of 15 future Hitlers that he engineers an earthquake to kill them along with tens of thousands of collateral damage non-future Hitlers, but didn't kill the actual Hitler back in 1889? What about history makes you think God disapproves of genocidal dictators?

2. In your opinion (note: I'm asking your opinion Stadler, not for what can be argued), is it reasonable to kill 1000 innocent people if it kills 1 'bad' person? If you were omnipotent, is this the method you would use to rid the world of the one bad person? If someone blows up your daughter's school because there was a murderer in there somewhere, killing her and 999 other kids, would you find it reasonable?

3. You often argue that "why do bad things happen to good people?" is an arrogant and misguided question, because the human definitions of good and bad may not apply to God's understanding of those terms. That being the case, what's the relevance of the 15 future Hitlers? Why not instead say "15 cancer scientists?"
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2019, 08:07:13 AM »
" Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns?"

Wow. This looks like the Blade Runner speech in a way  :D (And I mean it as a compliment, it's weird that such a nice passage is not "famous", I don't remember this ever being mentioned back when I was a kid and had catechism lessons). Cool stuff, even though the smartass reply would have been "Yeah, I can't do that, but you couldn't either avoid to have moving landmass that, with all the clashing of the tectonic plates, generate earthquakes who time and time again kill thousands of innocents".
How do you know they are innocents?   Or more directly, how do you know that 15 future Hitlers didn't die as well? 

Again, it seems illogical, but it's not straining the bounds of credulity to say that there are more variables than some schmoe posting on a prog band's unofficial forum can contemplate.   (I'm the schmoe, by the way, not you.)   Economics seem illogical to many, until they get more information.   How a touch-screen works is illogical to many, until they understand the science behind it.   I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that the ways and workings of a supreme being might operate similarly.

To me that's not the point of "god" at all.   That's why I think of science and religion as separate things(that don't oppose each other).  Science can explain the natural world,  spirituality is all about inner peace.  edit: I also recognize that I'm conflating a few things here, talking about the existence of god and a general spirituality are not the same and I'm more about the latter so I'm a little off topic.

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2019, 08:08:39 AM »
Well, the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, says Wikipedia, had 227,898 casualties. How many future Hitlers are worth that death toll? would have been nuking Abbotabad an acceptable solution to off Bin Laden?

And anyway - even if we couldn't understand the reasons, why a natural disaster should have a motive or even a divine reason? we study geology, we understand why such things happen. We know what tectonic plates are and which are the areas of the world more prone to earthquakes.

When / if San Francisco is leveled by a huge earthquake, what will be the most likely reason? a punishment for the hedonistic lifestyle and well due retribution for the summer of flowers and love, or the fact that the city is nearby the damn St. Andreas' fault, AKA the Earth's crust literally moving in plain surface?

Anyway, mine was more a light hearted comment to point out how the supposedly "perfect" Earth, which seems tailored specifically for us, really isn't. This planet tries continously to kill us, when stuff from space isn't trying.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #121 on: January 09, 2019, 12:03:19 PM »
" Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns?"

Wow. This looks like the Blade Runner speech in a way  :D (And I mean it as a compliment, it's weird that such a nice passage is not "famous", I don't remember this ever being mentioned back when I was a kid and had catechism lessons). Cool stuff, even though the smartass reply would have been "Yeah, I can't do that, but you couldn't either avoid to have moving landmass that, with all the clashing of the tectonic plates, generate earthquakes who time and time again kill thousands of innocents".
How do you know they are innocents?   Or more directly, how do you know that 15 future Hitlers didn't die as well? 

1. Why would God be so horrified at the prospect of 15 future Hitlers that he engineers an earthquake to kill them along with tens of thousands of collateral damage non-future Hitlers, but didn't kill the actual Hitler back in 1889? What about history makes you think God disapproves of genocidal dictators?

2. In your opinion (note: I'm asking your opinion Stadler, not for what can be argued), is it reasonable to kill 1000 innocent people if it kills 1 'bad' person? If you were omnipotent, is this the method you would use to rid the world of the one bad person? If someone blows up your daughter's school because there was a murderer in there somewhere, killing her and 999 other kids, would you find it reasonable?

3. You often argue that "why do bad things happen to good people?" is an arrogant and misguided question, because the human definitions of good and bad may not apply to God's understanding of those terms. That being the case, what's the relevance of the 15 future Hitlers? Why not instead say "15 cancer scientists?"

Preface this with two quick points:   one, the "15 Hitlers" was meant as contrast and not as a literal statement.  The  original presumption was that the bulk of those people were, under some standard, "innocent", and I would have been more correct to say that is a faulty premise than introduce Hitler into the equation.   Two, my thoughts only, as you asked, and I don't for a second say that I am right, or that I have proof, or that I am willing to use this in any way to get others to do something they wouldn't. 

1.  Nothing.  I don't know why he does what he does.  Maybe one was enough to send a message to the world.  Maybe the one was just sport.   Maybe in a broader way, the course of history needed that event for some reason.  The point is we DON'T know, and to speculate is, well, just that, and any conclusions drawn from that speculation ("My logic says that if 10,000 people that I deem are "innocent" die randomly, that proves there is no God") are baseless. 

2.  But while I understand your question, I can't in good conscience answer you without contradicting my position.  What I think is irrelevant.  It has no more bearing on what God does or thinks or wants than it does on what DT did in the studio a couple weeks/months ago.  If it was that "shotgun", sure you're probably right.   That's not the point though.  You're asking me to speculate and that's precisely what I'm saying is a dangerous path. 

3. I've answered this in my preface.   It wasn't meant literally, and in the literal sense of the word, you're probably asking fair questions, and I would defend your right to do so. 

I'm going to ask you to take me at my word that I had this fleshed out well before I read the book, but you can imagine that there's a reason I read the last 100 pages of 11/22/63 while sitting on the can, legs numb (from sitting) and tears streaming down my face like a lunatic.  Part of it was the heartbreaking resolution of the Jake-Sadie narrative, and part of it was just the way that the general idea of a human with a bright idea fucking with things they don't understand (here, history).  We THINK we know better, but we do not. 

As a more specific answer for you?  Honestly, I do not know.  I vacillate between "God started the universe like a child spinning a top, and what we see here is simply the natural order of things from that time.  God is on to something else at this point."  and something more determinative.   My mother, for example, believes that our fates are determined from day one, and only through god's grace and will does it change (I've never asked her what it might take for God to effect that change; I love my mom, she's been everything one could ask for in a mom, and none of the things you don't, but I did not get my deep intellectual side from her, and I not interested in her perhaps thinking I'm mocking her or questioning her beliefs).   I'd like to believe that God's presence is felt in our world, and I can articulate how that might happen in a cogent way, but I cannot and will not presume to think that I have that answer, because I don't. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 12:10:11 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #122 on: January 09, 2019, 12:11:42 PM »
" Can YOU tie the ropes of the Ki'mah constellation or untie the cords of the Ke'sil constellation? Or guide the Ash constellation along with its suns?"

Wow. This looks like the Blade Runner speech in a way  :D (And I mean it as a compliment, it's weird that such a nice passage is not "famous", I don't remember this ever being mentioned back when I was a kid and had catechism lessons). Cool stuff, even though the smartass reply would have been "Yeah, I can't do that, but you couldn't either avoid to have moving landmass that, with all the clashing of the tectonic plates, generate earthquakes who time and time again kill thousands of innocents".
How do you know they are innocents?   Or more directly, how do you know that 15 future Hitlers didn't die as well? 

Again, it seems illogical, but it's not straining the bounds of credulity to say that there are more variables than some schmoe posting on a prog band's unofficial forum can contemplate.   (I'm the schmoe, by the way, not you.)   Economics seem illogical to many, until they get more information.   How a touch-screen works is illogical to many, until they understand the science behind it.   I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that the ways and workings of a supreme being might operate similarly.

To me that's not the point of "god" at all.   That's why I think of science and religion as separate things(that don't oppose each other).  Science can explain the natural world,  spirituality is all about inner peace.  edit: I also recognize that I'm conflating a few things here, talking about the existence of god and a general spirituality are not the same and I'm more about the latter so I'm a little off topic.

But I give credit where credit is due, since you recognize that difference.   Many don't seem to want to make that distinction.  Much of the "believe in God?" question here and  elsewhere has been answered by detailed discussions about religious doctrine. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #123 on: January 09, 2019, 12:16:11 PM »
Well, the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, says Wikipedia, had 227,898 casualties. How many future Hitlers are worth that death toll? would have been nuking Abbotabad an acceptable solution to off Bin Laden?

And anyway - even if we couldn't understand the reasons, why a natural disaster should have a motive or even a divine reason? we study geology, we understand why such things happen. We know what tectonic plates are and which are the areas of the world more prone to earthquakes.

When / if San Francisco is leveled by a huge earthquake, what will be the most likely reason? a punishment for the hedonistic lifestyle and well due retribution for the summer of flowers and love, or the fact that the city is nearby the damn St. Andreas' fault, AKA the Earth's crust literally moving in plain surface?

Anyway, mine was more a light hearted comment to point out how the supposedly "perfect" Earth, which seems tailored specifically for us, really isn't. This planet tries continously to kill us, when stuff from space isn't trying.

By the way, it's worth saying here:  I'm advocating for a higher level of understanding.  That's not at all to say that I believe anything like "AIDS was a punishment from God against the gays!" I find that to be just as specious as the other human-level reasoning that we've discussed here.   I'm not going to invoke logic (why would God have a person born a certain way, only to punish them later in cruel fashion?).  It's not a question of logic, because the same failures apply.   I don't advocate any of my examples, I just offer them as an alternate way of considering the same set of facts.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2019, 01:52:43 PM »
my humble take is that faith has nothing to do with plausibility or logic.  To be clear that is not meant to be a dig against believers,  just that in my ideal world one could have faith and be scientific and those two things donít have to be in opposition.

I struggle with this. Take Noah's Ark for example. How can someone buy into that story and also believe in biology as we know it? How did penguins and kangaroos get onto the same boat as lions and buffalo? I mean physically, how did those animals get there? Did kangaroos swim across the ocean? Did penguins temporarily learn to fly to get to the ark? Did god turn off inbreeding effects for a few hundred years after the fact?

I feel like in order to have faith in that story, you have to turn a blind eye to everything we know about the animal kingdom and biology.

Well, for me, I feel the bible only tells a part of the worlds stories, which is the middle east area.

 To fully grasp it you have to listen to the many other regions of the world stories. The Asian, African, The Americas, all places have stories of major events that occurred. There are stories that have only been told and not written, so they're either not known or sadly lost through time.

Knowing that made me realize, we all believe in a creator god. All life is equal, yet for some reason one felt their way was right for all and did atrocities to those whom knew their culture/ways were what that creator god gave for them, how he wanted those people to live.

Back to the flood. That is when the world was destroyed, some say when Atlantis was buried. The people weren't living right, doing things they shouldn't be doing. Those whom were living right, in peace, were shown and told what to do to survive the flood. That is when the 3rd world was destroyed.

I've been interested in these myths and stories of old, since I was young and learned about ancient Greeks. Which made me search out stories from many places of the world....

Sorry for the long post, didnt mean for it to get this long, haha.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Believe in God?
« Reply #125 on: January 11, 2019, 11:13:04 AM »
my humble take is that faith has nothing to do with plausibility or logic.  To be clear that is not meant to be a dig against believers,  just that in my ideal world one could have faith and be scientific and those two things donít have to be in opposition.

I struggle with this. Take Noah's Ark for example. How can someone buy into that story and also believe in biology as we know it? How did penguins and kangaroos get onto the same boat as lions and buffalo? I mean physically, how did those animals get there? Did kangaroos swim across the ocean? Did penguins temporarily learn to fly to get to the ark? Did god turn off inbreeding effects for a few hundred years after the fact?

Well, you mention two different things, but neither requires anything remotely requiring suspension of our knowledge of how biology works. 

As for how they would have gotten to the ark, who knows?  But there are any number of explanations for how that could have occurred without basic biology working any differently than it does now (although, who is to say that it DID work the same in that instance?).  A single continental mass could have easily facilitated it.  So could some sort of divine intervention to collect them all.  So could any number of other possibilities that have or have not been thought up.  Gaps in the details of the explanation of how it occurred does not disprove whether or not it did occur.  Where a historical record is silent as to details, "I want to know more details or I won't believe it happened" does not negate an event having occurred.

As to the inbreeding issue, that does not necessarily create a problem either.  Inbreeding does not necessarily create to fatal defects in an organism.  It merely increases the likelihood.  Taken right from the definition, inbreeding "can increase the chances of offspring being affected by deleterious or recessive traits."  It does not always lead to such deleterious or recessive traits.  And even when it does, those are not necessarily fatal to a species' survival.  There is also nothing to say that it would have at a distant point in the past when fewer mutations were present in DNA (i.e., the DNA was much more "pure" and close to its original created state, for lack of a less crude description).  Even evolutionary models acknowledge this general point on inbreeding, as not all gradual mutations are believed to have occurred in masse, and when they occurred in relatively few organisms, would have to have become more widespread, if at all, through a few generations of close inbreeding. 

So neither "problem" you propose requires any suspension of our modern understanding of biology as far as I can see.  I mean, you raise some REALLY good points.  But to me, the thing is that when you really dig in and examine them, they never really add up to the "contradictions" in logic that they can seem to be on first blush, and typically tend to simply fall into the gaps of things we don't know.  We don't know how they occurred, but because the skeptic can easily think up scenarios in which something's occurrence or existence is contradicted by some other piece of knowledge, that scenario must be the most likely because it explains away whatever the thing is that the skeptic seeks to disprove.
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