Falling Into Infinity? Less meddled with than you might think

[Setlist Scotty]

Now if people don't think labels don't stick they necks into every album until the band gets the power over them they don't know the business.

Absolutely true! The label did stick their nose into the makings of IaW, Awake and FII, but for different reasons each time. They did so to a degree with IaW because it was DT's first album for Atco/EastWest. They did so to a degree with Awake because they wanted to repeat the success that IaW had. But the label especially did so with FII because of the success of IaW and the failure (in their eyes) of Awake in terms of sales.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yes, James also said that he wished that they could have made an album without any outside meddling. It's weird how even here we don't pay as much attention to what he says

Sure we do. Remember when he said he considers the beginning of DT to be 1989? 

[?]

To be fair, it was Kevin Shirley (and Desmond Child) who made changes to the songs and not the label. Of course the label people asked DT to keep writing material before they let them enter the studio, but maybe JP doesn't see it as an "influence". Besides, the same thing happened with I&W: DT were asked to write more songs that might be potential "hit" candidates, and as a result Don't Look Past Me, To Live Forever and ACOS were ditched in favor of PMU, Another Day, Surrounded and WFS. In that sense, you could also call I&W a label-influenced album, but I don't see a lot of people bitching about the four aforementioned songs, and it was a commercially smart decision anyway, since we all know what happened with PMU.

IMO most of the changes made to FII were for the better, although YOM/YNM and TAMP may be equally good (or bad ) in both the demo and final form.

[TheGreatPretender]

To be fair, it was Kevin Shirley (and Desmond Child) who made changes to the songs and not the label. Of course the label people asked DT to keep writing material before they let them enter the studio, but maybe JP doesn't see it as an "influence". Besides, the same thing happened with I&W: DT were asked to write more songs that might be potential "hit" candidates, and as a result Don't Look Past Me, To Live Forever and ACOS were ditched in favor of PMU, Another Day, Surrounded and WFS. In that sense, you could also call I&W a label-influenced album, but I don't see a lot of people bitching about the four aforementioned songs, and it was a commercially smart decision anyway, since we all know what happened with PMU.

I just find it weird because if there was any song off I&W sessions that I felt like had a ton of hit single potential it was To Live Forever.

But yeah, you're kind of right. I think the biggest gripe that happened with the FII sessions that really put a negative spin on everything is that the label didn't even want to or care to put out a new album. It wasn't like, "We're gonna sign you and you'll make us an awesome hit album! So let's make some hit songs, okay?"
In this case, it was more like, "Well, we don't want to give you the money for a new album. Buuut, if you insist... Make some hit songs." Just their sheer lack of interest and reluctance to greenlight the album in the first place that would've created so much pre-emptive animosity. And I think it's that kind of a start that turned it into an ultimately negative experience, and negative memory in Mike's eye.

[Stadler]

Honestly..not trying to be rude...it always seemed as if Portnoy was pissed about Kevin Shirley and Desmond Child making,for the most part, changes that were not that huge. Also, it seems that no one else in the band really had a problem with any of it. JP spoke positively about the Desmond Child experience in the Lifting Shadows book. When fans started complaining about not liking the album, MP started blaming the record company, and blowing it out of proportion.

Was the interference in the writing or production or was it the length?   I always thought the critique of the label was simply in regard to the trimming of the album and keeping the album at a single disk (and thus cutting the Metropolis Part II piece).  This was the second time that the final decision as to what appeared on the final version of the album was not 100% in the band's hands. 

Wouldn't the notion that they (JP OR MP) were dissatisfied with the songs or the production or writing be dashed because most of the live versions don't deviate all that much from the recorded versions, at least after the release of the album?  True, there is the "interpolation" of Peruvian Skies, but still.   NOTE:  I don't have access to the Ytsejam FII Demos liner notes at this moment, so if I am contradicted by those, I will stand corrected.

[rumborak]

Late to the party here, but to any observant reader of Lifting Shadows it was always somewhat clear that it was 95% MP's account of things. JP probably didn't want to rock the boat by openly disagreeing with MP in the book, but now that enough time has passed since the split, it seems JP finally comes out of the woodwork with setting certain records straight.

[ReaPsTA]

People are ignoring something pretty important - This was an off the cuff and unrehearsed interview answer.  It's obvious that JP has a lot of canned answers ready, but this question isn't very common.  For all we know, right after he answered he thought to himself "Oh wait, that's right, the label was making us write songs we didn't really want to."  And didn't feel like it was worth correcting himself.  To him, the emotional truth (that to him, FII is something he's proud of and not somehow tainted) is what mattered.

[Madman Shepherd]

To be fair, it was Kevin Shirley (and Desmond Child) who made changes to the songs and not the label. Of course the label people asked DT to keep writing material before they let them enter the studio, but maybe JP doesn't see it as an "influence". Besides, the same thing happened with I&W: DT were asked to write more songs that might be potential "hit" candidates, and as a result Don't Look Past Me, To Live Forever and ACOS were ditched in favor of PMU, Another Day, Surrounded and WFS. In that sense, you could also call I&W a label-influenced album, but I don't see a lot of people bitching about the four aforementioned songs, and it was a commercially smart decision anyway, since we all know what happened with PMU.

Exactly!  It wasn't until SFAM that the label didn't "meddle" at all. 

[noxon]

Read the liner notes in the FII Demos official bootleg. It's not as clear cut as "label interferred", it's more like "this was a really shitty period for us" with them constantly writing songs and trying to get the labels approval to make an album, personal tragedies and stuff. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the members were taking this more personal than other members

[rumborak]

People are ignoring something pretty important - This was an off the cuff and unrehearsed interview answer.  It's obvious that JP has a lot of canned answers ready, but this question isn't very common.  For all we know, right after he answered he thought to himself "Oh wait, that's right, the label was making us write songs we didn't really want to."  And didn't feel like it was worth correcting himself.  To him, the emotional truth (that to him, FII is something he's proud of and not somehow tainted) is what mattered.

I disagree. This was a topic that was regularly redigested by MP over the years (and apparently something JP was aware of, otherwise he wouldn't want to set the record straight), and it also featured prominently in Lifting Shadows. So, his summary of the album won't be something he never spent much time thinking about. And also, he used the wording: "Maybe I could set the records straight: I think that’s a really big misunderstanding". That's not an off-the-cuff comment anymore. When you try to set a record straight, you consider your words carefully.

[ReaPsTA]

I disagree. This was a topic that was regularly redigested by MP over the years (and apparently something JP was aware of, otherwise he wouldn't want to set the record straight), and it also featured prominently in Lifting Shadows. So, his summary of the album won't be something he never spent much time thinking about.

Just because you think about something a lot in private doesn't mean you can talk about it coherently.  Battlestar Galactica is my favorite show and something I think about a lot, but whenever I talk about it with real people I never know how to say anything other than "It's just so good!"

And also, he used the wording: "Maybe I could set the records straight: I think that’s a really big misunderstanding". That's not an off-the-cuff comment anymore. When you try to set a record straight, you consider your words carefully.

He should have.  Doesn't mean he did.

[rumborak]

I'm sorry, so you just conveniently declare JP's statement to be incoherent and ill-conceived, simply to fit it into your theory? I see absolutely no reason to assume he regretted his wording right after he said it.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know, to me, he doesn't really set the record "straight."  He doesn't say there was no meddling.  It just came from Kevin Shirley, not the label directly. 

I'm kind of with Blob, I don't really see a contradiction between this and what we already knew.

[MoraWintersoul]

I'm kind of with Blob, I don't really see a contradiction between this and what we already knew.

[ReaPsTA]

I'm sorry, so you just conveniently declare JP's statement to be incoherent and ill-conceived, simply to fit it into your theory?

He cared more about trying to improve the image of the album than he did about making sure he summarized the facts accurately.  I don't know if it's incoherent and ill-conceived, but it's not good.

I see absolutely no reason to assume he regretted his wording right after he said it.

Pure speculation on my part.  I'm just trying to put out there that lots of possibilities are in play.

[noxon]

Why on earth would he bother trying to "save the face" of an album released 17 years ago? There's no reason for him to do that.

[kirksnosehair]

Late to the party here, but to any observant reader of Lifting Shadows it was always somewhat clear that it was 95% MP's account of things. JP probably didn't want to rock the boat by openly disagreeing with MP in the book, but now that enough time has passed since the split, it seems JP finally comes out of the woodwork with setting certain records straight.

Came here to post that ^    Exactly what I was thinking when I read the book.   

[ReaPsTA]

Why on earth would he bother trying to "save the face" of an album released 17 years ago? There's no reason for him to do that.

I dunno.  It's what he did though.

[TheGreatPretender]

People are ignoring something pretty important - This was an off the cuff and unrehearsed interview answer.  It's obvious that JP has a lot of canned answers ready, but this question isn't very common.  For all we know, right after he answered he thought to himself "Oh wait, that's right, the label was making us write songs we didn't really want to."  And didn't feel like it was worth correcting himself.  To him, the emotional truth (that to him, FII is something he's proud of and not somehow tainted) is what mattered.

Lol, that's what I said. 

[Stadler]

I went back and reread some things too, and this is just turning into another opportunity to show bias and take sides.   JP clarified NOTHING in that quote, other than to attribute some of the sonic and arrangement ideas to Kevin Shirley, as opposed to "the label and the producer".  Big whoop.  It still wasn't solely on the band, and it still doesn't settle the issue of whether JP was happy or not with the meddling the label DID do (trimming the album to a single). 

I don't think it is a minor thing that AT THE TIME, the decision was made to bring all the songwriting, arrangement, and production in house. 

[Madman Shepherd]

I don't know, to me, he doesn't really set the record "straight."  He doesn't say there was no meddling.  It just came from Kevin Shirley, not the label directly. 

Is that really "meddling" when it is welcomed by 3/5 (the majority) of the band?

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know, to me, he doesn't really set the record "straight."  He doesn't say there was no meddling.  It just came from Kevin Shirley, not the label directly. 

Is that really "meddling" when it is welcomed by 3/5 (the majority) of the band?

Yes, but I wasn't applying a value judgement.  Just talking about "musical changes coming from someone outside the band as opposed to inside the band."  Just using the term that was already being bandied about.

[goo-goo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoRhTO3IlkM

At 3:55, James talks about the band being influenced by ''external forces'' during the recording of Falling into infinity. After seeing this interview years ago (and of course seeing comments about it in Score documentary), I understood why the album doesn't work for me like the other albums - and then once I got the chance to hear the demos, I realized so many songs have been shortened, a lot of the longer songs (my favorites from the period) got left out, all probably with the intention of creating a more commercial record. Now, it might be that JP was the one in the band that wanted to give it a shot - after all, if you watch the Score documentary, you can see MP mentioning that some of the guys in the band were tempted by that kind of success.

But then again, it's all a matter of perspective. JLB and MP might have been the ones who though the band isn't really profiting from that kind of policy, while JP didn't really think it's a big deal, he still thought the music they're doing is fine - just different.

For me the external forces mean Kevin Shirley, not the record label. Yes, the record label was asking for radio friendly songs, but Kevin Shirley had to make that happen. There were a few songs that were radio friendly (Burning My Soul, Take Away My Pain, etc...) but there were others that represented DT for what DT is known for: great musicianship, melody...Lines in the Sand, New Millenium, Trial of Tears....

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, it's all about semantics isn't it? I highly doubt the record label told DT what to change. I'm sure they just said, "You need to make it more radio friendly, so here's Kevin Shirley and Desmond Child to help you do that." I highly doubt the higher up execs at the label listened to the songs and said, "Take Away My Pain could use a poppy drum intro to it, and you should trim the pre-chorus of Hollow Years a little."

[hefdaddy42]

Well, it's all about semantics isn't it? I highly doubt the record label told DT what to change. I'm sure they just said, "You need to make it more radio friendly, so here's Kevin Shirley and Desmond Child to help you do that." I highly doubt the higher up execs at the label listened to the songs and said, "Take Away My Pain could use a poppy drum intro to it, and you should trim the pre-chorus of Hollow Years a little."

I agree.

[PetFish]

Meanwhile... MP is happy we're dissecting a JP quote for a change.

Personally, I don't give two shits about how much "meddling" there was.  Falling Into Infinity, for better or worse, represents where Dream Theater was at that moment in their careers.  I've always loved FII and even moreso since the demos were made available.

Contrary to the "commercialism" stigma I actually think FII is one of their more sonically diverse albums in that they were experimenting with different sounds and instruments, different styles (ie. Cover My Eyes and Take Away My Pain), and the specific monster lead sound that Sherinian brought which I also think is the highlight/signature of FII.

In the end, it's just another book in their long careers and one that I frequently re-read.  It's my favourite for certain reasons the same as Awake is my favourite for certain reasons and every album is my favourite for certain reasons.  They all remind me of where I was in my life when they came out and, for better or worse, they are associated with those times and I am grateful they've been on this journey with me for as long as they have.

[TheGreatPretender]

Meanwhile... MP is happy we're dissecting a JP quote for a change.

You know what? Why the hell not though? I mean, it wouldn't be too fair to say, "Hey, let's not look too deeply into it, it's only JP," but then go, "OMG! MP SAID THIS!!! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!?" Lol.
I say, let's scrutinize every little thing every past present and future member of DT ever says!

[noxon]

Why on earth would he bother trying to "save the face" of an album released 17 years ago? There's no reason for him to do that.

I dunno.  It's what he did though.

No, that's your interpretation. Another way to interpret it is him actually having that opinion, that the process of making the album wasn't as forced as others have implied. I mean, I can totally understand that. If you're a control freak, relinquishing any control to a third party of "your baby" is emotionally exhausting. But if you just want to work and have fun, it's maybe not that big a deal that someone makes demands and suggestions, as long as you still get to create.

I mean, if anything, the "label meddling" part is much more of a "save the face" statement because of the backlash FII has had ever since it's release!  ( for reference: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.music.dream-theater/aQ72M1HM57o ). By stating that the band can't be blamed for the content of the cd, they were essentially saying "it's not our fault it was so bad, it was the bad label who meddled".

[Setlist Scotty]

This was a topic that was regularly redigested by MP over the years (and apparently something JP was aware of, otherwise he wouldn't want to set the record straight), and it also featured prominently in Lifting Shadows. So, his summary of the album won't be something he never spent much time thinking about. And also, he used the wording: "Maybe I could set the records straight: I think that’s a really big misunderstanding". That's not an off-the-cuff comment anymore. When you try to set a record straight, you consider your words carefully.

Fully agree with this.
 
 

Why on earth would he bother trying to "save the face" of an album released 17 years ago? There's no reason for him to do that.

Because of the way things are now, which Blob posted earlier in this thread:

There have been many things to back this up, and it was never in question until JP made this one comment, that is in line with DT's new policy of sticking to the "everything is awesome, everything is cool when you're part of a team" thing.

Why did JP say something about it now? Because he was asked about it.
 
 

I went back and reread some things too, and this is just turning into another opportunity to show bias and take sides.   JP clarified NOTHING in that quote, other than to attribute some of the sonic and arrangement ideas to Kevin Shirley, as opposed to "the label and the producer".  Big whoop.  It still wasn't solely on the band, and it still doesn't settle the issue of whether JP was happy or not with the meddling the label DID do (trimming the album to a single). 

I don't think it is a minor thing that AT THE TIME, the decision was made to bring all the songwriting, arrangement, and production in house.

Thank you Stads! The one thing I would correct you on is regarding what the meddling issue was - it wasn't the trimming of the album to a single CD, altho that came later after they had written all those songs - the primary initial issue with regards to the label's meddling had to do with the continued rejection of the songs they had written thus far as not having enough commercially appealing hit songs for the label's liking.
 
 

Well, it's all about semantics isn't it? I highly doubt the record label told DT what to change. I'm sure they just said, "You need to make it more radio friendly, so here's Kevin Shirley and Desmond Child to help you do that." I highly doubt the higher up execs at the label listened to the songs and said, "Take Away My Pain could use a poppy drum intro to it, and you should trim the pre-chorus of Hollow Years a little."

I would be curious to know what the label said, but I do agree that it was likely them telling the band to write more radio-friendly songs, as opposed to dictating what needed to be specifically changed.

However, it should be noted that it was the band's decision to go with Kevin Shirley, *not* the label. Up until that point, they had always used a producer and hadn't gotten to the point of thinking that they'd be fine without one. So they had their list of candidates and were originally going to go with Kevin Gilbert until he died. I know that Peter Collins and Trevor Horn were also on that list, but for whatever reason, Kevin Shirley was the one they ultimately went with. And it was Kevin Shirley who pushed the band to re-write YoM with Desmond Child, not the label, after the success Kevin had seen with Aerosmith (and perhaps other bands) when they co-wrote songs with him.
 
 

Meanwhile... MP is happy we're dissecting a JP quote for a change.

Seriously Eric? Dude, I know you despise MP, but give it a rest! 
 
 

Meanwhile... MP is happy we're dissecting a JP quote for a change.

You know what? Why the hell not though? I mean, it wouldn't be too fair to say, "Hey, let's not look too deeply into it, it's only JP," but then go, "OMG! MP SAID THIS!!! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!?" Lol.
I say, let's scrutinize every little thing every past present and future member of DT ever says!

AMEN!

[Cable]

I don't know, to me, he doesn't really set the record "straight."  He doesn't say there was no meddling.  It just came from Kevin Shirley, not the label directly. 

I'm kind of with Blob, I don't really see a contradiction between this and what we already knew.

Yup, I agree too. JP's comment is pretty much the story we had from MP, just a different perspective.

The FII Demo liner notes clearly indicated, by MP, that the direction of the album was more of a straight-forward sound. So JP is 100% correct; the label had nothing to do with the overall intent of the album. As Blob said, they did write a bunch of songs that were rejected, so that was label influence. But in no way did their interference impact the writing. JP did mention Shirley's influence, and that was clear. The splitting of BMS/half of HK, cutting pre-chorus of HY, altering verses and chorus of TAMP, and YOM=YNM.

But really, how much really was changed? NM, PS, LITS, ToT, AL & JLMB all were pretty much exactly as they were demoed if I recall. LITS had one verse or something changed. TAMP still has the same melodies, just underlying instrumentation is different. HY was clearly made shorter to probably appeal to mainstream, but the song sounds the same. BMS/HK IMO actually sounds better, as the second half of HK was new and incredible I feel. But I get it, MP wanted the song as a straight-forward heavy song with a break in the middle.

YNM is the only true example of a complete change. But take that further… WHO wasn't involved with that? Who was?

I think what we have here is again, a different perspective. MP and JP both gave similar accounts, but their outlook was different. MP was absolutely negative about the rejection of songs, and some cutting, long process, and ONE song being partially re-written. JP was rather positive on the experience, with Shirley the producer being involved with cutting, as they do. But the band wanted a more straightforward approach.

So what we half is glass is half full/glass is half empty, but it's still a glass that is 50% occupied.

[MoraWintersoul]

We can close the thread after this post, I think. Everything else is just interpretations.

[noxon]

However, it should be noted that it was the band's decision to go with Kevin Shirley, *not* the label.

Decision based on a strong suggestion from Derek Oliver, as he was the one who actually put forward the name Kevin Shirley even though the band had a list of producers they wanted to use. Paul Northfield was rejected by Derek Oliver at this point in time specifically for not being able to think "single material", while Kevin had a good track record of producing singles.

However, since they actually liked Kevin and got along well with him, they were accepting the suggestion and decided to go with him. They were also willing to go along with his suggestions, even though it pained Mike to do it. All of this is in the FII Demos liner notes So yes, technically you'd be right to say that it was the band's decision, but you could just as well argue that it was an acceptable alternative, especially considering the reality was that they might not be able to do an album at all...

[Lucien]

We can close the thread after this post, I think. Everything else is just interpretations.

Well, I'm glad the thread garnered such constructive discussion. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I don't think we've even mentioned Kevin Moore yet. This thread has so much further to go.

[rumborak]

I think what we have here is again, a different perspective. MP and JP both gave similar accounts, but their outlook was different. MP was absolutely negative about the rejection of songs, and some cutting, long process, and ONE song being partially re-written. JP was rather positive on the experience, with Shirley the producer being involved with cutting, as they do. But the band wanted a more straightforward approach.

So what we half is glass is half full/glass is half empty, but it's still a glass that is 50% occupied.

Absolutely. And I think JP using the term "setting the record straight" is meant in the sense of, MP's version has been the completely dominant one, to the point where people assumed that the whole band hated the album. JP was trying to rectify that, no, not everybody hates that album.