Author Topic: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'  (Read 4950 times)

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Offline Tick

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2014, 11:18:19 AM »
I give Gene a ton of credit. He is a sub average musician that used a gimmick to make himself one of the richest guys in the world.  A gimmick that is still paying dividends over 40 years later! Pretty brilliant. One of the greatest marketers of all time as well.
Now being an arrogant asshole...he can give 2 shits what we think. Thick skin is also quite an attribute and Gene has that.
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Offline jasc15

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2014, 11:29:20 AM »
He's basically saying the rich are job creators. Pointing out how the working class plays a role in job creation is a direct response to those claims.

That is still irrelevant to what he is saying.  Although Simmons' argument itself contains a few reasoning fallacies, this response contains at least two blatant ones.  Simmons mentioned "the poor."  "Working class" and "poor" are not the same.  That is a scope shift (specifically, you are equivocating on the meaning of terms).  You (and others) also commit the same error in trying to equate buying albums and/or concert tickets with "giving him a job."  In the context of his argument, these are not the same thing.

yes... but be nice to poor people too.

That's all well and good.  But, again, that has nothing to do with his statement.  His statement is not suddenly invalid because poor people also deserve to be treated well.
You just read the book in XJ's thread, didn't you? ;)

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2014, 11:31:58 AM »
lol
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2014, 11:50:58 AM »
He's basically saying the rich are job creators. Pointing out how the working class plays a role in job creation is a direct response to those claims.

That is still irrelevant to what he is saying.  Although Simmons' argument itself contains a few reasoning fallacies, this response contains at least two blatant ones.  Simmons mentioned "the poor."  "Working class" and "poor" are not the same.  That is a scope shift (specifically, you are equivocating on the meaning of terms).  You (and others) also commit the same error in trying to equate buying albums and/or concert tickets with "giving him a job."  In the context of his argument, these are not the same thing.

yes... but be nice to poor people too.

That's all well and good.  But, again, that has nothing to do with his statement.  His statement is not suddenly invalid because poor people also deserve to be treated well.
You just read the book in XJ's thread, didn't you? ;)

That's what the thread is there for.

(although, for the record, while that thread was a great reminder, I come from an era where recognizing and calling out logical fallacies was taught in high school)
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline jasc15

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2014, 12:02:18 PM »
That's what the thread is there for.

(although, for the record, while that thread was a great reminder, I come from an era where recognizing and calling out logical fallacies was taught in high school)
I was thinking about how necessary it is to learn logical fallacies in school.  It wasn't taught when I went, which is a damn shame.  Some ideas would seem just not right to me, but I didn't have the tools to understand why.  "Logic" was taught in math class, but entirely out of context, so it meant nothing to students.

Anyway...

Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2014, 12:10:24 PM »
I think he'd be proud of both stories, though I find it fascinating that the teller's of the stories themselves each drew different conclusions.   I frankly think Al Franken is an asshole - a bigger asshole than Gene Simmons - and his telling of the story was in a context that would encourage hyperbole.    Ted himself immediately spun the story around to make it a lesson, one it sounds like he absorbed, recognizing the context of the story (his story about Paul singing his name is a classic as well).
Wasn't the Franken story from Fresh Air? Wouldn't really call that ripe for hyperbole. But, Franken is a comedian first and foremost, so I'm sure it was given a bit more whimsy than normal. Still, it does seem to fit in with everything we've seen from GS, and it does sound like he was a dick. You can't blame people for interpreting him as an asshole (and again, his autobiography!), your personal experiences with him aside. And yeah, I took the same thing from Danger Danger dude's story, but his interpretation of it doesn't make it less of a dick move. He was there once and should have known how the dude felt at the time. Moreover, just knowing what the towels cost suggests to me that he's not doing it right.  :lol

One thing I will say is that a lot of musicians don't care for interacting with fans after shows. Met Bruce and Nicko in '84, and they were pretty much going through the motions. If he was courteous and talkative to you, that's plenty cool.

And I got to see Franken preside over the Senate as President pro-tem for a while. He was even funny in that ridiculously tedious context.

(although, for the record, while that thread was a great reminder, I come from an era where recognizing and calling out logical fallacies was taught in high school)
Wow. Wonder it that's a regional thing or something. You and I are about the same age and logical fallacies only existed in practice where I went to school.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2014, 12:20:46 PM »
He's basically saying the rich are job creators. Pointing out how the working class plays a role in job creation is a direct response to those claims.

That is still irrelevant to what he is saying.  Although Simmons' argument itself contains a few reasoning fallacies, this response contains at least two blatant ones.  Simmons mentioned "the poor."  "Working class" and "poor" are not the same.  That is a scope shift (specifically, you are equivocating on the meaning of terms).  You (and others) also commit the same error in trying to equate buying albums and/or concert tickets with "giving him a job."  In the context of his argument, these are not the same thing.

The top 1% wouldn't take entrepreneurial risks without the population to sell it to, and whom buy their product. Saying the top 1% create the economy we have, and that the "poor" have never given him a job is ludicrous at face value. The working class are often poor, and if there is equivocation going on, it's because of just how much the two concepts overlap with the same people. Its really just a semantical ploy, and diverts us away from the fundamental issue being debated.

Quote
yes... but be nice to poor people too.

That's all well and good.  But, again, that has nothing to do with his statement.  His statement is not suddenly invalid because poor people also deserve to be treated well.

He's not being nice to poor people in his statement. He disparages them, and says there would be chaos without the top 1%. He implies they don't contribute to society. Thats not being nice to poor people. Treating them well means invalidating many of the things he says.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2014, 12:31:08 PM »
He's basically saying the rich are job creators. Pointing out how the working class plays a role in job creation is a direct response to those claims.

That is still irrelevant to what he is saying.  Although Simmons' argument itself contains a few reasoning fallacies, this response contains at least two blatant ones.  Simmons mentioned "the poor."  "Working class" and "poor" are not the same.  That is a scope shift (specifically, you are equivocating on the meaning of terms).  You (and others) also commit the same error in trying to equate buying albums and/or concert tickets with "giving him a job."  In the context of his argument, these are not the same thing.

yes... but be nice to poor people too.

That's all well and good.  But, again, that has nothing to do with his statement.  His statement is not suddenly invalid because poor people also deserve to be treated well.
You just read the book in XJ's thread, didn't you? ;)

That's what the thread is there for.

(although, for the record, while that thread was a great reminder, I come from an era where recognizing and calling out logical fallacies was taught in high school)

Care to actually identify what fallacy you think is being committed in that instance?


Offline bosk1

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2014, 12:48:53 PM »
Scheavo, you aren't even arguing the same thing that Simmons is arguing.  If you do not understand why, that isn't my problem. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2014, 01:10:44 PM »
Wasn't the Franken story from Fresh Air? Wouldn't really call that ripe for hyperbole. But, Franken is a comedian first and foremost, so I'm sure it was given a bit more whimsy than normal. Still, it does seem to fit in with everything we've seen from GS, and it does sound like he was a dick.

Not only from Fresh Air, but in reaction to the host, forget her name, whining about her treatment at his hands.  So Franken offers up his own story.  It was in his best interest to make Simmons out to be the biggest asshole he could to support a host he is likely ideologically and personally allied with.   


Quote
You can't blame people for interpreting him as an asshole (and again, his autobiography!), your personal experiences with him aside. And yeah, I took the same thing from Danger Danger dude's story, but his interpretation of it doesn't make it less of a dick move. He was there once and should have known how the dude felt at the time. Moreover, just knowing what the towels cost suggests to me that he's not doing it right.  :lol

One thing I will say is that a lot of musicians don't care for interacting with fans after shows. Met Bruce and Nicko in '84, and they were pretty much going through the motions. If he was courteous and talkative to you, that's plenty cool.

And I got to see Franken preside over the Senate as President pro-tem for a while. He was even funny in that ridiculously tedious context.

Well, I don't want to be a total Simmons apologist; I think he IS an asshole sometimes, and while I respect and admire his iconoclasm and his thick skin, I'm not a huge fan of the hyperbole.   I feel as though if you have to tell someone you're [this/that/the other], you probably aren't as much [this/that/the other] as you think you are.   I also HATED his reality show. I find his kids annoying (though Sophie will be hot when she's 21) and I find Shannon tedious and boring and not all that good looking anymore (even beyond just "age").   I just think it's hip and easy to slag him, and I'm not a fan of the easy way out.    Also, I think that while he isn't Billy Sheehan, he is far better than a "subaverage musician".   

Quote
(although, for the record, while that thread was a great reminder, I come from an era where recognizing and calling out logical fallacies was taught in high school)
Wow. Wonder it that's a regional thing or something. You and I are about the same age and logical fallacies only existed in practice where I went to school.

That wasn't me, but I could have wrote that.  They did teach us that in high school.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2014, 01:37:56 PM »

Not only from Fresh Air, but in reaction to the host, forget her name, whining about her treatment at his hands.  So Franken offers up his own story.  It was in his best interest to make Simmons out to be the biggest asshole he could to support a host he is likely ideologically and personally allied with.   
Yeah, you're right. It was Terry Gross (on Fresh Air) and she brought up what she thought of him. I wouldn't really slag on her as whining though. He really was something of a misogynistic dick on her show.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2014, 01:42:21 PM »
He really was something of a misogynistic dick 

 :omg:  SAY IT ISN'T SO!
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2014, 02:07:36 PM »
Scheavo, you aren't even arguing the same thing that Simmons is arguing.  If you do not understand why, that isn't my problem.

I frankly don't see how I'm not addressing what he said, especially in the first two paragraphs. But I suppose it would be your problem for not seeing this?

You're making a claim that my interpretation of what Gene Simmons said is wrong. It is your responsibility to defend this claim, not mine. Of course, you don't have to tell me if you don't want to, but I don't see how just telling me I'm wrong is constructive to a dialogue. It would be a logical fallacy, as you're trying to shift the burden of proof.


Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2014, 02:34:48 PM »
He really was something of a misogynistic dick 

 :omg:  SAY IT ISN'T SO!
Yeah, I get that, but he's perfectly capable of conversing at different levels for different purposes. There have been times when he's wanted to take the intellectual route. He's perfectly capable of talking to a far-left PBS host without acting like a douchebag. He just chose not to.
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Offline Tick

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2014, 03:19:39 PM »
He really was something of a misogynistic dick 

 :omg:  SAY IT ISN'T SO!
Yeah, I get that, but he's perfectly capable of conversing at different levels for different purposes. There have been times when he's wanted to take the intellectual route. He's perfectly capable of talking to a far-left PBS host without acting like a douchebag. He just chose not to.
Yeah, most of us are capable of wearing different masks. Gene is a smart man. If he wasn't he would be as successful as he is. He was just channeling his inner douche.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2014, 03:54:42 PM »
I've been giving some thought to something I said earlier:

Moreover, just knowing what the towels cost suggests to me that he's not doing it right.  :lol

He actually addressed something like this during the Terry Gross interview. He told her essentially that despite all of the artistic integrity bullshit that you hear about, the reason people want to become rockstars is because of the money and the pussy. I'm not sure that's entirely correct, but there really is some honest truth to that. He's clearly one of the people who not only believe that, but live their lives by it--obviously his primary goals. While I'm somewhat in agreement with him, it also makes him something of an asshole (in my book, at least). AFAIC those are quite laudable goals. I'd certainly love more of both. However if you're not into what you do to score them, then I'm not sure what the point really is. Back to what I said, to me the appeal of being in Gene's position is that you shouldn't have to worry about $6 towels. If to him it's all about making more money and banging more groupies for the sake of doing so, then he's just really not my sort of guy and honestly missing the point.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2014, 07:45:56 AM »
I've never been under any impression that Gene Simmons was in it for any other reasons than money and pussy. 

In fact, that's all anyone that wanted to start a band was after, when I was younger.  The music was the means to the end.  I have no doubt that this has always been Gene's outlook, as well.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2014, 08:09:14 AM »

He actually addressed something like this during the Terry Gross interview. He told her essentially that despite all of the artistic integrity bullshit that you hear about, the reason people want to become rockstars is because of the money and the pussy. I'm not sure that's entirely correct, but there really is some honest truth to that. He's clearly one of the people who not only believe that, but live their lives by it--obviously his primary goals. While I'm somewhat in agreement with him, it also makes him something of an asshole (in my book, at least). AFAIC those are quite laudable goals. I'd certainly love more of both. However if you're not into what you do to score them, then I'm not sure what the point really is. Back to what I said, to me the appeal of being in Gene's position is that you shouldn't have to worry about $6 towels. If to him it's all about making more money and banging more groupies for the sake of doing so, then he's just really not my sort of guy and honestly missing the point.

Well, EB, and I think you know this already so I don't feel like I'm lecturing you, it's not that black and white.  If you read any of the books on Simmons, his love for music and comic books goes back to his single digit years, around when he first came to America.  So I don't think you can say (at least about Gene) that he isn't into what he does.    There were rumors of a "Gene Simmons Box Set" about four years ago or so, and it was mooted as a SIX DISK set of all the songs he wrote since he first started playing that either didn't make it onto a Kiss record, or got picked apart for sections of songs on Kiss records.   Of all the things that can be said about Gene, that he doesn't LOVE music and being a musician I humbly say is not one of them.    Plus, no matter what your goals are, don't you use the tools you're given?   Why does Tom Cruise act and Dave Lee Roth sing?  Vince Neil is an even better example.   He would be the first to tell you: MONEY.  PUSSY.   And he would've raced cars, sang, surfed, whatever it took to get there, but he was (arguably) good at singing and being a front man (I don't think so, but my vote doesn't count). 

I think it's more accurate to say "He took his love of music out of the bedroom and made it public in order to get money and pussy."

And we have fundamental disagreement if the general premise of wanting money and pussy is enough to make you an asshole.   I don't subscribe to the ivory tower of musical integrity that some do.  I've been discussing the merits of "Hooker With A Penis" with someone on another site, and I think there are a lot of people that would be shocked - SHOCKED!! - at the number of so-called artists with integrity that made MAJOR compromises to get their names to a household (even just within the industry) level. 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2014, 08:42:29 AM »
Just for the record, I don't think that using music to get money and pussy makes Gene an asshole.

He's just an asshole, who uses music to get money and pussy.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2014, 08:49:50 AM »
I don't think the money and pussy thing makes him an asshole either. Again, more power to him.  I just think his priorities are a little askew. IIRC the towel thing happened in '92. Both were pouring in like a waterfall. Doesn't there come a time when you stop worrying about every $6?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2014, 08:53:05 AM »
I'm wondering when some people in this country decided that trying to make a lot of money, and being successful at it, makes you a person worthy of scorn.  I say hooray for capitalism.  :coolio

Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2014, 09:02:50 AM »
I'm wondering when some people in this country decided that trying to make a lot of money, and being successful at it, makes you a person worthy of scorn.  I say hooray for capitalism.  :coolio
I'm not sure anybody has said that. I'm certainly of the opinion that plenty of people behave like assholes whilst seeking wealth at the expense of others, but that's not necessarily the fault of capitalism. However, I'll also say that "capitalism, FUCK YEAH!" is concept that we should probably be shedding at this point. It will not be the future of things.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2014, 09:18:03 AM »
I don't think the money and pussy thing makes him an asshole either. Again, more power to him.  I just think his priorities are a little askew. IIRC the towel thing happened in '92. Both were pouring in like a waterfall. Doesn't there come a time when you stop worrying about every $6?

But read the story:  I read it as a posting from Ted Poley himself, as he recalled it, and it was CRYSTAL clear it wasn't about Gene recouping the $6.  It was about sending a message to Ted Poley in a way that (Simmons thought) Poley would understand.  Now, you can certainly knock Gene there for assuming that money meant the same to Ted that it does to Gene - a flawed assumption - but the insistence that Ted pay it out of his OWN pocket and not the tour fund told me that it wasn't about the $6.  It was about getting Poley to do/act as Simmons thought he should (if I remember, it was a sort of "be grateful, don't overstep your bounds" kind of message).   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2014, 09:23:09 AM »
I'm wondering when some people in this country decided that trying to make a lot of money, and being successful at it, makes you a person worthy of scorn.  I say hooray for capitalism.  :coolio
I'm not sure anybody has said that. I'm certainly of the opinion that plenty of people behave like assholes whilst seeking wealth at the expense of others, but that's not necessarily the fault of capitalism. However, I'll also say that "capitalism, FUCK YEAH!" is concept that we should probably be shedding at this point. It will not be the future of things.

And of course, plenty of people behave like assholes whilst seeking to redistribute wealth in an egalitarian way.  Asshole-ism isn't beholden to any political, economic, or cultural platform. 

I don't mean this argumentatively, but more curiously, but I would be interested in your succinct take on what DOES make Gene an asshole?  His ignorance (in the classic sense, not the current PC sense) of social mores and norms?  His reluctance to ever put anyone's needs or wants ahead of his, if there is no upside to him?   Nothing Gene does is really all that different than most people in his position; he just doesn't put the effort into the fašade.  If you don't think Bruce Springsteen and Jon Bon Jovi don't share a lot of attributes of Gene Simmons, I'm not sure you're really being fair. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2014, 10:01:19 AM »
I don't mean this argumentatively, but more curiously, but I would be interested in your succinct take on what DOES make Gene an asshole?
Ah, insightful question.

Penn and Teller had a great story about why their show was called Bullshit! They had their scripts approved by the HBO legal department, and one of them came back with a note from the big-wig attorneys saying "instead of calling this guy a quack, couldn't you just call him a cocksucker instead?" This really made me LOL. The point is sound, though. Some derogatory terms are specific (and libelous, as you're not doubt aware). Others are generalized. There's no basis in fact in calling somebody an asshole. It's a personal opinion of somebody you dislike. Gene's not my kind of people.

If he actually made chicken noises to Franken, that's assholish behavior in my book. I read the transcript of the Terry Gross interview. It seemed to me that he was making comments trying to bug her (he's perfectly capable of answering those questions honestly and bluntly without being quite so personally direct with the interviewer). More to my point, he's just not being the sort of "rockstar" I generally appreciate. I get that he wasn't concerned about the $18 for it's monetary value. I also think that the way he handled it was a dick move. In a situation like that I'd ask myself what would Dio do? He's pretty much my gold standard for awesome people in the music industry. He taught plenty of young musicians lessons about being better, and nobody has ever called him anything other than a wonderful human being (Vivian Campbell excepted).
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2014, 11:07:06 AM »
I'm wondering when some people in this country decided that trying to make a lot of money, and being successful at it, makes you a person worthy of scorn.  I say hooray for capitalism.  :coolio

When this country was founded, people with money had social expectations of them. With the puritans, being overly wealthy was a cause for concern. Being wealthy wasn't bad, per say, but there were certainly plenty of questions concerning the worth of someone's wealth.

Trying to be successful and simply trying to make a lot of money are different things.


He actually addressed something like this during the Terry Gross interview. He told her essentially that despite all of the artistic integrity bullshit that you hear about, the reason people want to become rockstars is because of the money and the pussy. I'm not sure that's entirely correct, but there really is some honest truth to that. He's clearly one of the people who not only believe that, but live their lives by it--obviously his primary goals. While I'm somewhat in agreement with him, it also makes him something of an asshole (in my book, at least). AFAIC those are quite laudable goals. I'd certainly love more of both. However if you're not into what you do to score them, then I'm not sure what the point really is. Back to what I said, to me the appeal of being in Gene's position is that you shouldn't have to worry about $6 towels. If to him it's all about making more money and banging more groupies for the sake of doing so, then he's just really not my sort of guy and honestly missing the point.

Well, EB, and I think you know this already so I don't feel like I'm lecturing you, it's not that black and white.  If you read any of the books on Simmons, his love for music and comic books goes back to his single digit years, around when he first came to America.  So I don't think you can say (at least about Gene) that he isn't into what he does.    There were rumors of a "Gene Simmons Box Set" about four years ago or so, and it was mooted as a SIX DISK set of all the songs he wrote since he first started playing that either didn't make it onto a Kiss record, or got picked apart for sections of songs on Kiss records.   Of all the things that can be said about Gene, that he doesn't LOVE music and being a musician I humbly say is not one of them.    Plus, no matter what your goals are, don't you use the tools you're given?   Why does Tom Cruise act and Dave Lee Roth sing?  Vince Neil is an even better example.   He would be the first to tell you: MONEY.  PUSSY.   And he would've raced cars, sang, surfed, whatever it took to get there, but he was (arguably) good at singing and being a front man (I don't think so, but my vote doesn't count). 

Let a be: "Gene Simmons is a rockstar"

Let b be: "Gene Simmpns loves music"

If Gene Simmons is a rockstar, then he loves music.

I feel like this is what you argue for, at one point, so I think you would agree to this. But I also feel as if you deny the antecedent of this in your post. If Gene is not a rockstar, he could still love music. Ergo, Gene being a rockstar and wanting to become one is not because of his love of music. It's because he wants to get pussy and be famous.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2014, 11:08:07 AM »
I don't mean this argumentatively, but more curiously, but I would be interested in your succinct take on what DOES make Gene an asshole?
Ah, insightful question.

Penn and Teller had a great story about why their show was called Bullshit! They had their scripts approved by the HBO legal department, and one of them came back with a note from the big-wig attorneys saying "instead of calling this guy a quack, couldn't you just call him a cocksucker instead?" This really made me LOL. The point is sound, though. Some derogatory terms are specific (and libelous, as you're not doubt aware). Others are generalized. There's no basis in fact in calling somebody an asshole. It's a personal opinion of somebody you dislike. Gene's not my kind of people.

If he actually made chicken noises to Franken, that's assholish behavior in my book. I read the transcript of the Terry Gross interview. It seemed to me that he was making comments trying to bug her (he's perfectly capable of answering those questions honestly and bluntly without being quite so personally direct with the interviewer). More to my point, he's just not being the sort of "rockstar" I generally appreciate. I get that he wasn't concerned about the $18 for it's monetary value. I also think that the way he handled it was a dick move. In a situation like that I'd ask myself what would Dio do? He's pretty much my gold standard for awesome people in the music industry. He taught plenty of young musicians lessons about being better, and nobody has ever called him anything other than a wonderful human being (Vivian Campbell excepted).

Good answer.

Don't mean to derail the Gene Simmons conversation, because it is interesting to me, but you mentioned Dio.  You and I are, if not the same age, of a same generation.   And I don't know if you listen to Eddie Trunk or not, but I do (I'm in the Northeast, so I hear his FM show as well as his satellite show) and he considers himself a friend of Dio and will not say a bad word about the guy.  I actually called in to ask him this, though I had to be too cute, because it was very close to his death, and I didn't want to slag him and I didn't want to piss off Eddie. 

But over the past, say, 10 years, everyone you meet who has an opinion says that Dio is simply the nicest, classiest guy on the planet.   And there is plenty of evidence to that effect, no doubt.   But I was around when he was in the first incarnation of "Dio Sabbath", and I bought Holy Diver on vinyl week of release.    If you asked me back then about Dio, NO DOUBT the answer would have been "asshole" (I'm using that word to be funny).   The rumors were that he didn't get along with Blackmore (and tellingly, never worked with him again), he didn't get along with the Sabbath guys, and he drove a slave ship with his solo band.  Now, we know now that Blackmore is the tough guy to work with, and of course, he reunited with Sabbath twice since (though, tellingly, he left them in the lurch at Ozzy's "Farewell" show, when Halford had to step in). 

In other words, in your opinion since it sounds like you were there too, is the "nice guy" Dio revisionist history to an extent, or are we benefiting from the internet age where we get the true story and not the bits and pieces like we used to? 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2014, 11:10:03 AM »

Let a be: "Gene Simmons is a rockstar"

Let b be: "Gene Simmpns loves music"

If Gene Simmons is a rockstar, then he loves music.

I feel like this is what you argue for, at one point, so I think you would agree to this. But I also feel as if you deny the antecedent of this in your post. If Gene is not a rockstar, he could still love music. Ergo, Gene being a rockstar and wanting to become one is not because of his love of music. It's because he wants to get pussy and be famous.

I'm kinda not going that far.  I was simply saying that don't assume Gene doesn't love music JUST because he became a rock star to get money and pussy.   I think it is sort of the reverse, in the sense that he wanted money and pussy, and figured, what's the best way to get it?  What am I best at?  Music!

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2014, 11:16:32 AM »
Well in that case, I agree

Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2014, 12:14:08 PM »
In other words, in your opinion since it sounds like you were there too, is the "nice guy" Dio revisionist history to an extent, or are we benefiting from the internet age where we get the true story and not the bits and pieces like we used to?
Well, just to get this out there, NOBODY gets a long with Blackmore. Jesus would have called him a dick.

As to the greater point (and you don't mention what Trunk said, BTW), his issues with Blackmore, Iommi/Geezer, anybody in his own band, were all about music. I fully expect people to have personality conflicts with regards to art they're passionate about (and we can agree that they're all passionate about their music). As is so often the case, some of that conflict helped to create amazing music. I saw Dio mention that he really hated side two of Rising, yet I consider that the finest thing he ever did. As for his own bandmates, I don't consider expecting perfection out of them to be assholish. A Buddy Rich style berating? That's assholish.

I'll also point out that all of those people had wonderful things to say upon his death, and seemed most sincere. I recall that Geezer was a huge part of his problem with Sabbath, yet they became close enough friends that he and his wife were at his bedside the night before he died.

Since we're drawing comparisons with Dio now, here's another observation. I never saw Dio live (and that's about 15 times) when he didn't graciously and earnestly thank the audience for allowing him to do what he does. The man sincerely considered himself the luckiest on Earth. Don't know if you read the "Dio's Dead" thread on Blabbermouth, but it was an endless string of musicians posting to describe his devotion to his fans (standing out back after a show getting snowed on for 3 hours to make sure every last one got a picture, a handshake or an autograph, that sort of thing). If you say that GS is great to his fans I believe you; have no reason to think otherwise. But I can't imagine Dio ever saying that no poor person has ever given him a job. As far as he was concerned the only people in the world he owed anything to was the fan that helped to make him what he was. Who do you think Gene would give more credit to, himself or some $4/hr photomat flunky?
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2014, 12:30:56 PM »
I'm wondering when some people in this country decided that trying to make a lot of money, and being successful at it, makes you a person worthy of scorn.  I say hooray for capitalism.  :coolio
The problem is not 'making a lot of money' it's doing so at expense of others while rigging the system so that the rich keep their money while the middle class largely pay for all the shit that helped the rich get rich in the first place. But that doesn't make a good soundbite for all the butthurt rich out there who are sitting sweet on their piles of money in a system they fixed for themselves while the wealth gap widens and middle class wages stagnate.

So yay capitalism. Just make sure to bow to your corporate and plutocrat overlords before you step out. We wouldn't want to hurt their diamond-encrusted feelings would we?

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2014, 02:17:10 PM »
OK, so I'm going to continue to be nice to people, for the most part, rich, poor, or in between.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2014, 07:12:12 PM »
Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, do we even know the context with which he was speaking about this issue? The article in the OP's link doesn't give any back story as to why this topic was even being discussed. I obviously didn't try to research it myself, but I can probably guess it was made in reference to those who would criticize him for his success.

Hell. I'm no Gene Simmons, but I even have family members (some in my family and Mrs. Vox's family) who make comments because I won't "GIVE" them money whenever they want it. I have been and remain very generous with family and friends, and before I take my soul and shove off this rock someday, what doesn't stay with my wife and son, I'd like to give most of away. But even I'm not going to apologize for my success. Both my first cousin and my own little brother are always trying to get some sort of additional handout from me; as is Mrs. Vox's cousin who once made the comment, "Must be nice to make all that money off of stupid books!" This was after I wouldn't "GIVE" her 25,000.00 to start up a "home cleaning" business. And later remarked, "Why have money if you won't even help your family?" And this is a person whom we have probably "GIVEN" more than 50,000.00 to over the past 10 years already. These same family members who come to me and ask to "borrow" money, I won't even loan it to them anymore. I just give it to them occasionally when they ask. I tried having them work for the money. That way, I, or they wouldn't later feel like they owed me anything. I made an arrangement for that same cousin of Mrs. Vox to clean my house 10 x for $10,000. All she had to do was come over, dust, vacuum, clean windows, do light laundry, etc. for ten days!!! This way she wouldn't feel like she owed me anything and would feel awkward. when she couldn't pay it back; or feel indebted to us in any way. I even stopped our normal cleaning service. (Yes, I have a cleaning service. We are busy people, and we can afford to have a cleaning service, so sue me.) She showed up the first day and spent most of it drinking coffee, and taking smoke breaks outside. Then she made excuses to ever show back up again. One day she claimed her car wouldn't start, so I drove over to pick her up, but she and her car were gone! Then we didn't hear for her for a month, and then she asked my wife if she thought I would "give" her an additional 25,000 to start a legit cleaning service? Fuck no!

 Gene Simmons appears to be an asshole for a lot of reasons, but he needn't apologize for being a rich asshole. There are obviously a number of factors involved in economic inequality (equity, equality of outcome, equality of opportunity, and even life expectancy); but I totally agree with him when "poor" people or anyone really for that matter would say I don't deserve my wealth and assets. Lucky? Sure, but hard work plays into it too. I may be wrong, but I'd bet Gene was referring to those who feel he shouldn't have his wealth since they don't either.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2014, 07:41:58 PM »
I saw nothing of the sort in that. I did see condescension to us lowly commoners. He's proud to be rich and one of the important ones, unlike the rest of us freeloading bastards.

However, I agree with you that he shouldn't be ashamed of his wealth, and I've defended his right to own it. That said, despite his wealth economic theories, the guys a huge asshole, and you know that as well as the rest of us (Stadler excepted,  :)).

And speaking of his economic theories, they're full of shit. He's misinterpreting numbers he heard on Sean Hannity or some shit. The top 10% pay 68% of all taxes.
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-earners
What he might have misunderstood was that the top 1% pay more than the bottom 80 (according to the Tax Policy Center in 2011). I guess it wouldn't surprise me at all if the math confused him on the matter, but I think all of us can recognize a big difference between the two.

Moreover, I'd be pretty curious what his effective tax rate is. Something else that wouldn't surprise me was if it turned out to be quite a bit lower than my broke ass's.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Gene Simmons: 'Try Being Nice to Rich People'
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2014, 09:25:57 PM »
Good points... and yes,  he can be a colossal asshole.
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