The official Opeth thread v. In Cauda Venenum

[kirksnosehair]

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[Zantera]

Black Rose Immortal would probably be in my bottom three Opeth songs. 21 minutes of nothing memorable.

The main/intro riff always stuck in my head as a great Opeth riff but I get your point and honestly it's one of those tracks as I'm listening to it, I'm thinking "yeah its pretty cool" but then 2 hours later I've kinda forgotten a lot of it. Bottom 3 seems a bit harsh though.

[Peter Mc]

I seem to remember liking Black Rose Immortal but tbh I tended to listen to the Blackwater Park to Watershed era so it’s not like I listened to it a whole lot.  I tried with the newer stuff and still own Heritage and Pale Communion but I just can’t get into it.  It’s not the lack of growls for me as that was the part of Opeth’s sound that I took longest to appreciate, I’m not a fan of harsh vocals in general.  I actually really liked Damnation although it wasn’t what I wanted them to do permanently.  The thing I miss is the huge riffs and majestic melodies. 

I’d probably rank Opeth second only to Ozzy-era Sabbath as the greatest metal band of all time. It’s that metal sound that I miss and it’s kind of ruined their albums for me now as I always feel kind of sad listening to them knowing that they don’t make that type of music anymore.  I know it shouldn’t as those albums are still there and I don’t blame Akerfeldt for making the music he wants to make. It’s just that I don’t think the new stuff is very good and I loved what they used to do. That’s my problem though not his.

I should also say that I like lots of prog music, like Neal Morse, Steven Wilson, Marillion, not just metal.  I just don’t think they are a particularly great prog band.  I also like Damnation, as I mentioned, but that had this really folky melodic sound that was in their music anyway.  The new stuff seems lacking in memorable melodies, more cold and atonal in sound.

[darkshade]

I've had issues with the newer music as well, and I don't even listen to death metal, and do listen to prog rock, prog metal, jazz, etc... If it was just the removal of growls, I don't think fans would complain as much, but the overall writing changed after the big lineup changes happened between GR and WS. That is what I think some fans have issue with, and of course some miss the metal parts as well.

[darkshade]

I'm going through Opeth's discography, haven't listened to the classic albums in years, and it's been a while since I've dug into the more recent albums. I've been more-or-less going chronologically, and I'm up to Ghost Reveries. Haven't listened to the band that much since all the lineup changes between GR and WS. I've kept up, but that's about it. I did like Heritage a lot when it came out, though. So now I'm curious to see how I feel about the last bunch of albums going forward. Listening to the band's first 8 albums really brings me back.

[darkshade]

Watershed sounds like all the other recent albums, only difference is there's death metal on it. To me, as metal players, Fredrik Akesson and Martin Axenrot don't stand out to me, especially compared to the previous lineup. Obviously they are skilled players. The classic sound is not there. Take that for what it is, I don't listen to much metal, but have listened to my fair share. I wasn't into this album when it came out (compared to Ghost Reveries a few years earlier where I couldn't listen to it enough) I wasn't opposed to the change of direction on the next album. There's a possibility they would have repeated Watershed 4 more times and people would be calling the music stale and wishing they would "mix things up".

[Buddyhunter1]

Watershed is a pretty underrated album IMO. I like the amount of variety on it, and quality-wise I find it to be more consistent than Ghost Reveries.

[twosuitsluke]

Watershed is probably my #2 album

[IDontNotDoThings]

I'd argue that Watershed is the band's heaviest album, with Mikael's most brutal growls of his entire career. Something about the album has a really eerie & dark vibe which I love.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'd argue that Watershed is the band's heaviest album, with Mikael's most brutal growls of his entire career. Something about the album has a really eerie & dark vibe which I love.

Burden has that Eerie dark vibe you talk about, from the opening piano to the end chromatic downtuning section.

[ErHaO]

Watershed is actually my favourite Opeth album, followed by Ghost Reveries.

[darkshade]

Just as I thought. Heritage is a good album. I always liked this since it came out. I think I'm along for the ride. This is in stark contrast to Dream Theater in the 2010s. I'm not against aging modern progressive bands cutting back on the "metul!" in their sound.

Akerfeldt has a great voice, the bass is prominent, the sound and production is great. If this wasn't "OPETH" and was MA solo album, would it be better received? Aside from some Camel influence, it doesn't sound like "retro-prog" Opeth style, it sounds like Opeth, just without death metal. Is it the classic period? No, but it's still got the melancholic gloomy vibe Opeth has always had, with some heavy rock moments.

[Buddyhunter1]

Heritage is easily their best post-Watershed album, in my opinion. It's got a few clunkers and it's lacking in heaviness, but it makes up for that with some really dark, atmospheric sections, especially in Haxprocess and Famine. That focus on atmosphere has, in my opinion, always been just as important than their heaviness, if not more so. That's also the reason why I dislike Pale Communion so much - apart from a couple songs the atmosphere in that album is barely existent and it doesn't have anything else to make up for it.

[Ben_Jamin]

Heritage is easily their best post-Watershed album, in my opinion. It's got a few clunkers and it's lacking in heaviness, but it makes up for that with some really dark, atmospheric sections, especially in Haxprocess and Famine. That focus on atmosphere has, in my opinion, always been just as important than their heaviness, if not more so. That's also the reason why I dislike Pale Communion so much - apart from a couple songs the atmosphere in that album is barely existent and it doesn't have anything else to make up for it.

That is what makes Opeths sound for me. The way their tones and chord choices make an eerie feeling. The way the liner notes in Blackwater Park are done, and the band picture in the woods, Is exactly what I picture while listening to Opeth. Being in a dense wooded area, where there is creepiness, the unknown noises, the calming of the wind, and the chill of the fog. That to me is what Opeth is. Since Watershed, it's like the scene of the forest has changed, from a green, bleakish, foggy landscape, to a darkened, calmer, more sinister, feeling, of somethings lurking behind you, that feeling you know something behind you but don't want to turn around, that calmness and feeling is the best way I can describe Opeth's style now.

[Buddyhunter1]

Since Watershed, it's like the scene of the forest has changed, from a green, bleakish, foggy landscape, to a darkened, calmer, more sinister, feeling, of somethings lurking behind you, that feeling you know something behind you but don't want to turn around, that calmness and feeling is the best way I can describe Opeth's style now.

In Cauda Venenum sounds like I'm stuck inside a haunted Victorian-era mansion being served dinner by a bunch of unsettling old people in dusty suits, and not being quite sure if they plan on murdering me or not.

[Ben_Jamin]

Since Watershed, it's like the scene of the forest has changed, from a green, bleakish, foggy landscape, to a darkened, calmer, more sinister, feeling, of somethings lurking behind you, that feeling you know something behind you but don't want to turn around, that calmness and feeling is the best way I can describe Opeth's style now.

In Cauda Venenum sounds like I'm stuck inside a haunted Victorian-era mansion being served dinner by a bunch of unsettling old people in dusty suits, and not being quite sure if they plan on murdering me or not.

I haven't listened to the album much at all. I will listen to to it again though. And see if I get the same vibes as you do...

[Volante99]

I'd argue that Watershed is the band's heaviest album, with Mikael's most brutal growls of his entire career.

My Arms Your Hearse would like a word with you...

Honestly, I don’t really get the love for Watershed. It’s a step down from Ghost Reveries and suffers (like a lot of Opeth albums during that time) that many of the songs are about 2-3minutes too long.

Also, Heritage is a masterpiece.

[darkshade]

Yea, I don't get the hate for Heritage, I love the mood. It's a dark, quiet room album.

Pale Communion is also great. The writing is a little better than Heritage, but it doesn't have the same moodiness that Heritage has.
However, this is one of the band's best albums, so many classic Opeth moments.
I listened to Sorceress for the first time since the release time, so I haven't digested this one as much, but I liked it. Not sure why there are so many people who have issues with the sound quality on this one. It sounds great to me. Love the heavy bass.

On to the latest album.

[KevShmev]

While I think In Cauda Venenum was a clear upgrade over Sorceress, it still isn't an album that stuck with me very long as a whole.  The Garroter and Universal Truth are killer songs, but I rarely go back to anything from it now.  Feels like Still Life through Pale Communion will always be that sweet spot for me with this band.

[darkshade]

While I think In Cauda Venenum was a clear upgrade over Sorceress, it still isn't an album that stuck with me very long as a whole.  The Garroter and Universal Truth are killer songs, but I rarely go back to anything from it now.  Feels like Still Life through Pale Communion will always be that sweet spot for me with this band.

Right now, I look at this as 3 different bands, who all happen to go by Opeth.
The first two albums, MAYH-GR, and Watershed-present, with Mikael as the ringleader/mastermind, and each lineup change causing a seismic shift in the band's sound, similar to Robert Fripp/King Crimson.

[Zantera]

I would lump Orchid and Morningrise in with the albums that followed. They are a bit more raw and unpolished and MAYH is more a refined version of what they did before IMO but it's still very much in the same blueprint.

Honestly my biggest issue with modern Opeth (Heritage forward) is not that the music is bad or anything, it just feels like a shoulder shrug compared to what they did before. Even growls aside, songs like Face of Melinda, Windowpane and A Fair Judgement are all leagues above any songs they have written in the last decade IMO.

[darkshade]

I would lump Orchid and Morningrise in with the albums that followed. They are a bit more raw and unpolished and MAYH is more a refined version of what they did before IMO but it's still very much in the same blueprint.

Honestly my biggest issue with modern Opeth (Heritage forward) is not that the music is bad or anything, it just feels like a shoulder shrug compared to what they did before. Even growls aside, songs like Face of Melinda, Windowpane and A Fair Judgement are all leagues above any songs they have written in the last decade IMO.

IMO the change in writing style happened on Watershed, it's just that they're were still being too aggressive to notice.

[Zantera]

I would lump Orchid and Morningrise in with the albums that followed. They are a bit more raw and unpolished and MAYH is more a refined version of what they did before IMO but it's still very much in the same blueprint.

Honestly my biggest issue with modern Opeth (Heritage forward) is not that the music is bad or anything, it just feels like a shoulder shrug compared to what they did before. Even growls aside, songs like Face of Melinda, Windowpane and A Fair Judgement are all leagues above any songs they have written in the last decade IMO.

IMO the change in writing style happened on Watershed, it's just that they're were still being too aggressive to notice.

Watershed is definitely the transitional album and not Heritage. Watershed is like the cocoon and Heritage is what comes out of it, no disagreement there. I find Watershed hard to rank because on one hand I think it's a great album and by no means do I have much bad to say about it, but on the flip side it doesn't have that same 'feel' as Orchid - Ghost Reveries.

[Buddyhunter1]

Ghost Reveries to me sounds closer to Watershed than it does to the albums before it tbh.

[Kram]

Ghost Reveries is Opeth at their peak IMO.  It's "proggier" than the albums that preceded it, but still very "metal".  Things did start to change with Watershed, but Watershed still kicks ass!  I wish they would go back to the sound and style of songs like "Porcelain Heart" and "Hex Omega". No growls but more of a Prog Metal sound vs. the classic prog sound they've since embraced.

[darkshade]

Ghost Reveries to me sounds closer to Watershed than it does to the albums before it tbh.

I also agree with this. There is overlap from GR to WS.
GR is the peak of the classic lineup, and the classic writing style, plus the keyboards of Per Wiberg had been fully integrated into the band.
WS sees a new lineup, so the band is going to sound different, but while Per is still there and keyboardists tend to fill the sound out, I feel the writing changed and reflects more where they wound up going more than where they were before. The connection to both albums is the heaviness/death metal. It makes me wonder what a follow up to GR would have been like if there wasn't a lineup change until after Watershed.

[darkshade]

I've now listened to both English and Swedish versions of In Cauda Venenum. I think I prefer the English version just because I'm used to Opeth singing in English, but I have no issue with non-English vocals. I really like the prog band PFM, who sing in Italian.
Musically, I think this may be the strongest release since Ghost Reveries. Feels like everything in the last decade or so has culminated in this album (which is how I felt about Ghost Reveries after it came out.)

[Fritzinger]

I've now listened to both English and Swedish versions of In Cauda Venenum. I think I prefer the English version just because I'm used to Opeth singing in English, but I have no issue with non-English vocals. I really like the prog band PFM, who sing in Italian.
Musically, I think this may be the strongest release since Ghost Reveries. Feels like everything in the last decade or so has culminated in this album (which is how I felt about Ghost Reveries after it came out.)

Interesting. I like the Swedish version far better, I think that language suites the eery/dark atmosphere AND Mikael's voice perfectly! I have the box set with both versions on vinyl, but I rarely listen to the English one.

I used to have a problem with non-English music (except German music, but I am German), but ever since I know and LOVE the band Premiata Forneria Marconi, that is just gone. Cool that you mentioned them too. Their 70s albums are amazing. I have to revisit Per Un Amico.

[Ben_Jamin]

I've now listened to both English and Swedish versions of In Cauda Venenum. I think I prefer the English version just because I'm used to Opeth singing in English, but I have no issue with non-English vocals. I really like the prog band PFM, who sing in Italian.
Musically, I think this may be the strongest release since Ghost Reveries. Feels like everything in the last decade or so has culminated in this album (which is how I felt about Ghost Reveries after it came out.)

I prefer his delivery in the Swedish version, more so than the english version.

[darkshade]

I've now listened to both English and Swedish versions of In Cauda Venenum. I think I prefer the English version just because I'm used to Opeth singing in English, but I have no issue with non-English vocals. I really like the prog band PFM, who sing in Italian.
Musically, I think this may be the strongest release since Ghost Reveries. Feels like everything in the last decade or so has culminated in this album (which is how I felt about Ghost Reveries after it came out.)

I prefer his delivery in the Swedish version, more so than the english version.

I only got this album a couple of weeks ago and I just go back and forth between English and Swedish, really just not sure which one I like more as I'm more focused on digesting the music.

[Kram]

I've now listened to both English and Swedish versions of In Cauda Venenum. I think I prefer the English version just because I'm used to Opeth singing in English, but I have no issue with non-English vocals. I really like the prog band PFM, who sing in Italian.
Musically, I think this may be the strongest release since Ghost Reveries. Feels like everything in the last decade or so has culminated in this album (which is how I felt about Ghost Reveries after it came out.)

Agreed.  IMO - In Cauda Venenum is their strongest release since Watershed

[twosuitsluke]

I've now listened to both English and Swedish versions of In Cauda Venenum. I think I prefer the English version just because I'm used to Opeth singing in English, but I have no issue with non-English vocals. I really like the prog band PFM, who sing in Italian.
Musically, I think this may be the strongest release since Ghost Reveries. Feels like everything in the last decade or so has culminated in this album (which is how I felt about Ghost Reveries after it came out.)

Agreed.  IMO - In Cauda Venenum is their strongest release since Watershed

I'll second this. In Cauda Venenum is easily my favourite post-Watershed album. You know when an albums aesthetic, the promotion for it, and the bands look (Mikael's stage gear, you know black hat, black suit and big belt buckle  ) just seems to all come together to work for you. It's just such a strong album and I love the vibe it has. As for the English/Swedish debate, I have both on my ipod but mainly listen to the English version. That's purely so I can understand what the lyrics are, but I do make an effort to listen to the Swedish version every now and then.

I'd say that Pale Communion is my second favourite of this era and has grown on me a hell of a lot. Heritage has always been the album that broke my heart, and it's been a long road (nearly ten years!) to get to the point where I'm at now, where I can enjoy it without being reminded of the end of Opeth's golden era (for me at least).

[Kram]

Post Watershed output -

1. In Cauda Venenum

2. Pale Communion




3. Heritage

4. Sorceress

[425]

Heritage probably remains my favorite Opeth album, but In Cauda Venenum could dethrone it. I'd definitely put those two and Watershed together as my top three.

On the subject of transitions, I think Ghost Reveries is a significant change from the previous albums with the introduction of keyboards and what I perceive as a move in a slightly less dark direction, which make me enjoy it significantly more than the preceding ones. Watershed is another significant step in that direction, which makes me like it even better than Ghost Reveries. Then Heritage more or less stands alone, and then the last three albums are in a similar style to each other, with In Cauda Venenum being the perfection of that style.

[kirksnosehair]

While I think In Cauda Venenum was a clear upgrade over Sorceress, it still isn't an album that stuck with me very long as a whole.  The Garroter and Universal Truth are killer songs, but I rarely go back to anything from it now.  Feels like Still Life through Pale Communion will always be that sweet spot for me with this band.

+1