The official Opeth thread v. In Cauda Venenum

[PROGdrummer]

The thing is, we still have Orchid, Blackwater Park, Deliverance, Ghost Reveries, ect.

This is just something different. We're still allowed to enjoy old-Opeth, "classic" Opeth as much as we want. Those albums are cemented in history and aren't going anywhere. If that's the Opeth you want to hear, you can have it any time you want.

Again, Heritage and PC are just something different. Do you guys just want the same album over and over again, with some different riffs and lyrics?

I know I don't.

[Dark Castle]

Don't think anyone has said they want the same albums over and over, soooo we can put that point to rest?

[Ben_Jamin]

For me, Heritage has some great songs and some that lull me. Its the production and mix that makes the sound different. I enjoy its atmosphere because its eerie.

If an album I listen to happens to be what I want to hear at the moment I discovered it, then i'll play it more. But if not, then i'll play it less. That doesn't mean, at all, the album is bad. It's not what I'm into at the moment. Yet I do listen to those albums when I'm in the moment feeling/needing those notes to soothe, calm, entertain, etc...my mind. I enjoy a vast array of music and many people have their own reasons for listening to music, hence my descriptions. Shit, a lot of people can't even listen to songs because it makes them reminisce of their past, makes them feel scared (gives them a bad feeling, makes them feel weird), or some random reason. Yet at the other end of the spectrum, makes people feel good, helps them accomplish tasks.

That's why I love music and always will hold it close to my heart and is a part of me.

Now, I got to either buy Pale Communion or stream it. If what people here are saying about it, I'll definitely enjoy it.

[TioJorge]

Beautifully stated. There's a lot of albums like that for me, even from some of my favorite artists (for all the above reasons). This is more than likely going to be one of those albums that I don't spin a whole lot, but if I'm in the right mood, will love it. This Fall/Winter is going to be awesome; I'm so ready for it. Good riddance friggin' heat and sun.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yeah, the cold crept uponus, and its pretty much fall here now cause the leaves are changing and falling, not to mention the chill factor that shifts from hot in the Sun to cold in tge shade.

[Genowyn]

So as someone who didn't really dig Heritage (as in I listened to it like once and never felt like doing so again) should I bother with this one?

[Mosh]

Yes. This album is hardly anything like Heritage imo. It has some 70s prog rock sounds but it has a lot more things that are familiar to Opeth. Elysian Woes, for example, sounds like something that could've been on Watershed.

[Buddyhunter1]

Yes. This album is hardly anything like Heritage imo. It has some 70s prog rock sounds but it has a lot more things that are familiar to Opeth. Elysian Woes, for example, sounds like something that could've been on Watershed.

Don't really agree with this at all. Elysian Woes and Faith In Others wouldn't sound out of place on Damnation, but the rest of the album just sounds like more Heritage, except less dark.

[Mosh]

I dunno, I think the first two songs kinda have some hints of Heritage but aside from that everything else is pretty Opeth sound to me. Unlike Heritage which didn't sound at all like Opeth. I've held off on commenting much since I don't know the individual songs as well, but there have been tons of moments that remind me of pre-Heritage material. Mostly Watershed and Damnation, which makes sense since Watershed was the last thing they did before Heritage and Damnation is a similar style.

[Genowyn]

Well I like Damnation but I feel like they had been going in a generally downward direction since GR, so comparisons to Watershed aren't super comforting

[Mosh]

I'd say check it out regardless of what album it sounds like, honestly. Despite the comparisons, it's still its own album and as a whole unlike anything else they've done so far. It's a short album; give it a shot you might like it!

[black_biff_stadler]

Do you guys just want the same album over and over again, with some different riffs and lyrics?

Jesus fucking Christ. You'd honestly be less condescending if you just called all of the dissentors of their new style dumb fucks right to their face. Many of us like all or nearly all of their discography from Orchid through Ghost Reveries. I'd like to see you explain how that run (minus Damnation) is lacking variety and depth.

[Dr. DTVT]

And some of us like Orchid through Watershed.  Or at least I do.

[black_biff_stadler]

At worst, I've slightly disliked it a little and, at best, I've liked it a little bit. Basically, a 4-6/10 range for me.

And to add to my last post, I may be seeing this incorrectly, but it really seems like most of the folks with that woefully shortsighted stance that, had Opeth stayed in the death metal scene, they'd be eternally resigned to making the same album are people with an extremely limited degree of exposure to the era they're marginalzing. Basically, people with these types of histories with the band:

1. At the earliest, began listening to them during the Ghost Reveries era and maybe not even til Heritage.

2. Listened to like one or two albums for a spin or two each back in the day, weren't amused, and moved on but came back in recent years once things were more to their liking all the while never listening to the death metal era nearly enough to make such a sweeping generalization with any credibility.

[Mosh]

Do you guys just want the same album over and over again, with some different riffs and lyrics?

Jesus fucking Christ. You'd honestly be less condescending if you just called all of the dissentors of their new style dumb fucks right to their face. Many of us like all or nearly all of their discography from Orchid through Ghost Reveries. I'd like to see you explain how that run (minus Damnation) is lacking variety and depth.

Why not Damnation?

I agree that the notion of Opeth making the same album over and over again is ridiculous. They've never made the same album twice, and they've never stuck to a certain sound for more than two albums. How someone could listen to Orchid then BWP then Watershed and tell me it's the same thing is mind boggling.

[black_biff_stadler]

Do you guys just want the same album over and over again, with some different riffs and lyrics?

Jesus fucking Christ. You'd honestly be less condescending if you just called all of the dissentors of their new style dumb fucks right to their face. Many of us like all or nearly all of their discography from Orchid through Ghost Reveries. I'd like to see you explain how that run (minus Damnation) is lacking variety and depth.

Why not Damnation?

I agree that the notion of Opeth making the same album over and over again is ridiculous. They've never made the same album twice, and they've never stuck to a certain sound for more than two albums. How someone could listen to Orchid then BWP then Watershed and tell me it's the same thing is mind boggling.

Because it's specifically the death metal Opeth being dismissed so I needed to clarify that I was specifically defending that era. Basically, no need to defend something which isn't a part of the matter at hand, not a case of me not liking it since I do.

[PROGdrummer]

Some butthurt bitches in this thread for some reason.

Anyway, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anh5FWVI3d8

The band has changed their overall sound and riff ideas. Oh well.

And just FYI, I never said that pre-Heritage Opeth was bad or anything. I love all of their albums. I also really like the new ones too. But I'm not just a fanboy who blindly claims to like everything the band puts out either. Heritage took a while for me to get into, but I think it's good now (the drums and heavy keys make it extra special to me).

That being said, Opeth had a tendency to become repetitive with their riffs, rhythms and ideas. If I heard a random 10 second audio clip from one of their heavy instrumental passages, I probably wouldnt be able to name the song correctly right away.
"Was that Harlequin Forest? Or...maybe Baying of the Hounds. Fuck, it was Leper Affinity." I dont have that problem with most other bands. Sometimes, Opeth got kind of "samey".

The band writes differently now. Different beats, different riffs, different sounds altogether. It's really nothing to bitch about. You don't have to like it. But not everyone has to hate it. Are we not allowed to discuss and have fucking opinions?

Whatever, regardless.  Opeth is awesome.

[black_biff_stadler]

Are we not allowed to discuss and have fucking opinions?

Have all you want. We're also entitled to have ours which includes calling a spade a spade during hyperbolic assertions.

Some butthurt bitches in this thread for some reason.

Cla...ssy!

[TioJorge]

Gotta say, I wouldn't mind in the slightest if Opeth sidelined us again with a totally new sound next album (I know, already; it happens). I seriously doubt that's gonna happen but it'd be interesting. It'd keep in line with 'two album sets' of similar sounding music. I'm enjoying this music but it'd also be cool if they just kept changing it up. However, if this style evolved some more I could see it being truly epic if refined enough.

[seasonsinthesky]

Do you guys just want the same album over and over again, with some different riffs and lyrics?

Jesus fucking Christ. You'd honestly be less condescending if you just called all of the dissentors of their new style dumb fucks right to their face. Many of us like all or nearly all of their discography from Orchid through Ghost Reveries. I'd like to see you explain how that run (minus Damnation) is lacking variety and depth.

Why not Damnation?

I agree that the notion of Opeth making the same album over and over again is ridiculous. They've never made the same album twice, and they've never stuck to a certain sound for more than two albums. How someone could listen to Orchid then BWP then Watershed and tell me it's the same thing is mind boggling.

the funniest part is that Pale Communion is just Heritage with "some different riffs and lyrics," much moreso than any of the previous albums were! the only real difference is the slight injection of Watershed on songs like "Cusp of Eternity" (and maybe some Still Life in MASB).

[black_biff_stadler]

the funniest part is that Pale Communion is just Heritage with "some different riffs and lyrics," much moreso than any of the previous albums were! the only real difference is the slight injection of Watershed on songs like "Cusp of Eternity" (and maybe some Still Life in MASB).

I thought the exact same thing too.

[TioJorge]

This thread needs some of this.

Bum-to-the-bass.

I'm just gonna leave that there and let you guys enjoy. Love puttin' my butt up against big basses. Mm. Don't look at me.

[KevShmev]

Gotta say, I wouldn't mind in the slightest if Opeth sidelined us again with a totally new sound next album (I know, already; it happens). I seriously doubt that's gonna happen but it'd be interesting. It'd keep in line with 'two album sets' of similar sounding music. I'm enjoying this music but it'd also be cool if they just kept changing it up. However, if this style evolved some more I could see it being truly epic if refined enough.

Agreed.

So as someone who didn't really dig Heritage (as in I listened to it like once and never felt like doing so again) should I bother with this one?

Yes.  They really aren't that much alike, unless you can't get the "it sounds like 70s prog" out of your head, which doesn't make sense anyway, since not all 70s prog sounds the same.

I already like this record way more than I ever liked Heritage (which is my least favorite Opeth record since the first two, neither of which appeal to me very much).  And it's getting better on every listen. 

[PROGdrummer]

I dont know why you like arguing with me so much floyd, or why you tend to get so genuinely pissed every time I speak up in a thread. There's no need to take opinions as personal insults. That's just silly.

I'm all for discussion, obviously. I just dont see the point in instantly starting an argument over something dumb. Or maybe that's just the way you express yourself, idk.
Point is, i wasnt trying to be a "condescending dick" or whatever you said.

[black_biff_stadler]

I never called you a dick or insulted you in any way. I accused you of condescending unto the Opeth fans who prefer the death metal-infused era. Basically, many of the fans on the other side of that fence seem to be under the impression that Opeth is only capable of making seven albums (eight, if you wanna include Watershed) with metal themes despite the fact that the last one they made in that style is probably their second-best-regarded album in their entire discography as far as this forum's concerned when you take into account all Opeth fans regardless of which side they're from.

The way your post was worded, as well as most others sharing that sentiment, comes off as basically saying the metal fans will just take whatever's shoveled onto their plates with no critical thought process involved whatsoever since you put it this way...

Do you guys just want the same album over and over again, with some different riffs and lyrics?

[Scorpion]

Jesus fuck we had exactly the same argument when Heritage was released. Just because some people don't like this doesn't mean that they want Opeth to stagnate and are against them trying out new stuff, it might just be that THE NEW DIRECTION IS NOT TO THEIR LIKING. I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, (though Pale Communion is definitely better than Heritage in my opinion) but god damn, why does everything have to be black and white? Why is everyone who doesn't like this change suddenly against the whole concept of change from the outset?

I know not everyone thinks that, I'm not talking directly with anyone, and I'm mainly just ranting, 'cause most of the stuff here is pretty respectful, but man, some of the shit you see on the internet...

[Dark Castle]

Jesus fuck we had exactly the same argument when Heritage was released. Just because some people don't like this doesn't mean that they want Opeth to stagnate and are against them trying out new stuff, it might just be that THE NEW DIRECTION IS NOT TO THEIR LIKING. I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, (though Pale Communion is definitely better than Heritage in my opinion) but god damn, why does everything have to be black and white? Why is everyone who doesn't like this change suddenly against the whole concept of change from the outset?

I know not everyone thinks that, I'm not talking directly with anyone, and I'm mainly just ranting, 'cause most of the stuff here is pretty respectful, but man, some of the shit you see on the internet...

Thank you so much man.
Seriously 

[black_biff_stadler]

I love you Scroptimus.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

some of the shit you see on the internet...

[TioJorge]

That's a pretty good reaction gif to most arguments on music.

It's good.

[ariich]

Jesus fuck we had exactly the same argument when Heritage was released. Just because some people don't like this doesn't mean that they want Opeth to stagnate and are against them trying out new stuff, it might just be that THE NEW DIRECTION IS NOT TO THEIR LIKING. I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, (though Pale Communion is definitely better than Heritage in my opinion) but god damn, why does everything have to be black and white? Why is everyone who doesn't like this change suddenly against the whole concept of change from the outset?

I know not everyone thinks that, I'm not talking directly with anyone, and I'm mainly just ranting, 'cause most of the stuff here is pretty respectful, but man, some of the shit you see on the internet...

Agreed, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and some people simply don't like the new albums.

I do find a lot of inconsistency though. People say "it's not because the albums aren't heavy, it's just because they aren't good", but then follow up by saying "if I want 70s prog I have plenty of better albums to listen to". Surely that's the case for death metal as well though. If it's about quality and not genre, then why even mention the 70s prog thing? (I'm not including black_floyd in this, because he's been pretty open about hating the lack of heaviness).

Also, I find it a bit rich that people jumped down PROGdrummer's throat for suggesting that the older Opeth albums were samey, while insisting that Heritage and Pale Communion are the same. Those two albums are as different as any of the "death metal era minus Damnation" ones.

[Onno]

Agreed with Scrop and Rich.

Also, I find it a bit rich that people jumped down PROGdrummer's throat for suggesting that the older Opeth albums were samey, while insisting that Heritage and Pale Communion are the same. Those two albums are as different as any of the "death metal era minus Damnation" ones.

Very much agreed on that last part. They're as different as, say, BWP and Heritage.

Mike's songwriting approach seems to remind me of the same kind of obsessiveness involved with anorexia (this is strictly a comparison, I'm not implying he actually has an eating disorder.) Similar to how an anorexic person needlessly obsesses over losing more weight despite the fact that they don't need to, Mike seems to try to keep out-progging each prior album to the detriment of the songs' level of cohesiveness. It's like he thinks the can't-fail solution to every song is COUNTLESS UNPREDICTABLE TRANSITIONS!!!

I don't think I agree with you here. For me, Orchid and Morningrise are the two albums with countless unpredictable (and quite random sometimes) transitions. In the run from MAYH-Watershed, the transitions flow really well and are not random. In both Heritage and Pale Communion, the transitions are mostly unexpected, but it's a lot more coherent than on Orchid and Morningrise to me.

They may have evolved with each album, but to say they didn't have a previous vein is just absurd. They had a definite sound you could pin to them.

I agree, and that is still there.

Agreed. However, while the definite sound is quite obvious in Orchid-Watershed, it is a bit harder to find in Heritage and PC. To continue on that...

I think a lot of the mellow sections sound like classic Opeth, but because they aren't surrounded by the crushing heavy riffs and growls, they stand out as more derivative to those who miss the metal or the growling or whatever.  I get it, but I enjoy it.  It still retains enough of the classic Opeth mellow sound to still sound very much like Opeth.  Just not the metal side of the band.  If that makes sense.

That is exactly how I feel. The definite sound of Opeth is just as present in the mellow sections of Heritage and PC as in the mellow sections of any other Opeth album. The 'heavier' sections on Heritage and PC are quite different from those on the other albums, however. That's what makes it sound like 70s prog. In my opinion, the 'heavier' sections on Heritage and PC still sound a bit like Opeth... but it's hard to find the Opeth sound in them. I'm not bothered by this because the mellow sections are still very Opeth to me.


Sorry for the long post guys, a lot of posts have been made since yesterday evening and I had to catch up

[TioJorge]

Jesus fuck we had exactly the same argument when Heritage was released. Just because some people don't like this doesn't mean that they want Opeth to stagnate and are against them trying out new stuff, it might just be that THE NEW DIRECTION IS NOT TO THEIR LIKING. I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, (though Pale Communion is definitely better than Heritage in my opinion) but god damn, why does everything have to be black and white? Why is everyone who doesn't like this change suddenly against the whole concept of change from the outset?

I know not everyone thinks that, I'm not talking directly with anyone, and I'm mainly just ranting, 'cause most of the stuff here is pretty respectful, but man, some of the shit you see on the internet...

Agreed, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and some people simply don't like the new albums.

I do find a lot of inconsistency though. People say "it's not because the albums aren't heavy, it's just because they aren't good", but then follow up by saying "if I want 70s prog I have plenty of better albums to listen to". Surely that's the case for death metal as well though. If it's about quality and not genre, then why even mention the 70s prog thing? (I'm not including black_floyd in this, because he's been pretty open about hating the lack of heaviness).

Also, I find it a bit rich that people jumped down PROGdrummer's throat for suggesting that the older Opeth albums were samey, while insisting that Heritage and Pale Communion are the same. Those two albums are as different as any of the "death metal era minus Damnation" ones.

Bolded; that so much. The only thing I find similar in them is that PC feels like a natural evolution to Heritage, but even then I feel they're completely different in tone and the overall ebb and flow of the album. I've never identified with all the comparisons and/or complaints about the 70's prog aspect because I've never listened to much of it, so in that aspect I suppose I'm lucky (weirdly I haven't liked what little I have heard). That said, of course these two albums will feel more similar than the rest since they're the starkest difference to the rest, and thus a natural pair, but all that considered, I still see Heritage and PC as being pretty stark contrasts of each other most of the time as well.

I think specifically because of that though, they're a great pair. And yes, everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. (Only problem I've had is with how certain ones have been conveyed, but even then, I shouldn't care so much and it's not worth the arguments; agree to disagree is the best way to let it be)

[Riitasointi]

My 2 cents at this point:

It's really strange to me that some people are going like "Whoooah man Pale Communion is totally different from Heritage, so goooooddd!!" when to me they are essentially the same. Heritage has overall darker aura to it I think, whereas PC has some things that remind of Watershed and Damnation, but otherwise they share the same atmosphere. It might be stupid and overly simplified but I think Opeth has only two different sounds in their career: Orchid through Watershed and then the two latest. And no matter which way you look at it, it's because the heavy sections sound different, as Onno very well said above.

Saying all this, I've listened to Pale Communion some more and at this point it's starting to sound better again  Hope it will grow some more.

[TioJorge]

Eh, I personally do think that's pretty over simplified. But then again, while there's a few tracks throughout Opeth's career that I may not like all that much, they're a rare band I can say I pretty much love all their material. I really think each album has it's own specific flavor. Of course, there are certain 'eras' of similarities or even purposeful relation between albums, but each album has it's own statement and I think Opeth has had a pretty varied statement for the very specific genre they stuck to for so long. I love it though, the slight change through their career and then out of nowhere, Heritage.

Anyway, as I said, of course Heritage and PC have a similar vibe, but I think that's where it ends. I wouldn't go nearly as far to say that they're 'essentially the same'. Then again...we've got different ear holes! It's interesting, for sure. We simply hear it differently. To me Heritage was all about restraint and whispering ambiance, along with being pretty dark and foreboding; PC feels very much a 'bright' evolution of it, but it's so much more vibrant, varied and has many more ups and downs to me. It's still dark in places, but I feel that tonally, it's a far cry from Heritage's somber, restrained approach; PC feels louder, more versatility and eeriness. I've seen a few people call it boring and I simply don't identify with that at all; I can't see it. Which is fine, but yeah it's strange how utterly different people's view on the same songs can be.

That's part of the fun though.