Mike Portnoy

[Stadler]

You honestly believe that MP pushed JLB to be a better singer? JLB did not sound that good in the last two albums with MP, and it is because he is singing songs that are not tailored to fit his voice. That video of JLB being coached to sing "Dark master..." in Systematic Chaos was so sad. I don't see "being pushed to the limits" there. I see a lack of awareness of what your bandmate's strengths are.

JLB may sound a bit safe in his vocals nowadays, but I see it more of the band being aware of writing melodies fit to the 50-year old James. He sounds much much better live now even with a lot of touring, and I think it is because they know what songs fit JLB at his age.

I honestly believe that.  "Safe" is not really a good thing, and though I understand what you mean about "awareness", that doesn't cover all the possibilities.  Artists make choices, no?   And just because I have MORE choices (i.e. my vocal range is larger than other singers) doesn't mean I make BETTER choices.   And I think that "safe" choices are not necessarily "better" choices.

[bosk1]

You honestly believe that MP pushed JLB to be a better singer? JLB did not sound that good in the last two albums with MP, and it is because he is singing songs that are not tailored to fit his voice. That video of JLB being coached to sing "Dark master..." in Systematic Chaos was so sad. I don't see "being pushed to the limits" there. I see a lack of awareness of what your bandmate's strengths are.

JLB may sound a bit safe in his vocals nowadays, but I see it more of the band being aware of writing melodies fit to the 50-year old James. He sounds much much better live now even with a lot of touring, and I think it is because they know what songs fit JLB at his age.

I agree that James sound better on the most recent two albums than the two before.  But that being said, I still think he was fantastic on most of SC and BCSL.  I don't see anything about his singing on any of those albums that I would consider "not good."  And I am baffled as to why you would consider that video "sad."  That just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[rumborak]

I can only vouch for the improvement live. Album-wise he's been consistent over the last 4 albums or so, IMO.

[El Barto]

Aaabsolutely. I thought it was quite visible how much more comfortable in their skin everybody was in that new configuration.
When MP was still around, I sometimes had the feeling that he was competing with James, maybe in an attempt to compensate whatever he perceived to be lacking in live performance. In the new configuration, James is the undisputed front man, and I feel that undisputed status made him more comfortable with himself on stage.
Album-wise, can't say I have noticed much difference.

I didn't see it as competing as much as filling in a gap. Honestly, I've never thought very highly of JLB as a front man. There are certainly times when he's more confident than others, the Score show demonstrates a man owning the stage, but more often than not when I've seen them he's just been part of a group, and without the added presence of MP that's now a real detriment.

[King Postwhore]

I think he's been a little better in the studio the last 2 albums.  Maybe him having a little more freedom with the phrasing of the vocals has helped him stay in a better range and it all adds up to a better sounding album for vocals.  I agree with Rumbo that he has sounded better live.

[erwinrafael]

I honestly believe that.  "Safe" is not really a good thing, and though I understand what you mean about "awareness", that doesn't cover all the possibilities.  Artists make choices, no?   And just because I have MORE choices (i.e. my vocal range is larger than other singers) doesn't mean I make BETTER choices.   And I think that "safe" choices are not necessarily "better" choices.

Safe is definitely not always better, and most of the time, for singers it actually is not. But not in the case of a singer of JLB's age. By making somewhat safe but ultimately, smarter choices for vocals, the band were actually able to restore JLB's voice. He can now sing songs from Awake. I don't think a lot of us believed ten years ago that JLB could sing Awake songs again at 50 years old.

Also, at the end of the day, a beautiful song is a beautiful song. Breaking All Illusions did not push JLB to the limits, but it is a beautiful song.  Far From Heaven is simple, but has a heartfelt JLB performance. These more straightforward vocals for me made big vocal performances like TITL and IT more special.

I agree that James sound better on the most recent two albums than the two before.  But that being said, I still think he was fantastic on most of SC and BCSL.  I don't see anything about his singing on any of those albums that I would consider "not good."  And I am baffled as to why you would consider that video "sad."  That just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

While I was watching it, I was getting the impression that JLB is being asked to sing like somebody who is not him. It's like they wrote a song with a different singer in mind, and now they are asking James to sing like that singer they had in mind. For example, Constant Motion is a good song, but I don't really appreciate JLB doing a James Hetfield impersonation.

[rumborak]

Yeah, but that was more of an overall thing though. The whole band was occasionally trying to sound like another band, and James was just part of that.

[KevShmev]

Going back to Barto's point, I think the fact that he isn't micromanaged anymore has contributed greatly to JLB doing so well the last few albums and tours.  Let's fact it, no one likes to be micromanaged to death on the job, especially by someone who is supposed to be a peer (a fellow band member).  You simply feel more comfortable doing your job when you know you can make the occasional mistake without hearing about it every time, and a higher level of comfort often results in better work.

[erwinrafael]

And it's not like the one micromanaging him is an expert on vocals. 

[emtee]

It just seemed as the years passed the inconsistency of James in a live setting irked Mike more and more. And we will never know if
JLB wanted the primary focus of the fans on him as the frontman but couldn't command it so Mike felt like he needed to fill the energy
void and be more of a showman. In the end the relationship appeared toxic. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. None of us were there.

[425]

Let's fact it, no one likes to be micromanaged to death on the job, especially by someone who is supposed to be a peer (a fellow band member).

To be fair to MP (since that seems to be my role in this thread): He was one of the producers of those albums, so he wasn't entirely a peer.

[bosk1]

  Being the producer does not give him any authority over James.  He was still a fellow band member, which makes him a peer.

[rumborak]

I think that was the band dynamic in the end though, and probably not to James' liking.

[King Postwhore]

I think that was the band dynamic in the end though, and probably not to James' liking.

I think in the end, all the band members did not like that band dynamic.  They were hostages to Mike in everything he did and they had enough.

[bosk1]

:hostageanalogy:

[King Postwhore]

:hostageanalogy:

You used to make these dance you know.

[425]

  Being the producer does not give him any authority over James.  He was still a fellow band member, which makes him a peer.

Not authority, but the role of the producer includes the latitude to offer suggestions and coaching on performances. Since Mike was the producer, it was essentially his job to give suggestions to performers on what would make the best performance possible. If he thought James needed to be doing something differently to make the album good, then it was certainly well within his role as producer to make those suggestions. JP appears to be a little more hands-off in that area, but that does not make a more hands-on style like MP's wrong.

I'm just saying that it's not entirely accurate to position MP as some nosy, bossy coworker harassing a peer—as the producer, he was supposed to be more involved in directing the other's performances than a band member who is not the producer would be.

[bosk1]

But that has little to do with Kev's point about Mike's role vis-à-vis James in the band in general. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think that was the band dynamic in the end though, and probably not to James' liking.

Probably the reason he chose to record his ADTOE vocals in Canada with no one but Richard Chycki. The man knows how to use his voice and how to sound good, so that was really something great that made him grow as a singer. And props to John Petrucci for allowing that.

[425]

But that has little to do with Kev's point about Mike's role vis-à-vis James in the band in general. 

I wasn't commenting on the overall point, I was merely contesting the particular idea that MP wasn't supposed to be involved in making critiques and suggestions for James's vocal performance. That's why I picked that one sentence out of his post instead of commenting on the whole thing.

[KevShmev]

All that shows is that Portnoy was out of his element when it came to micromanaging JLB's vocals.  The making of SC all but showed that anyway.  Many of us have said for a long time that DT should have an outside producer, and that kind of stuff only feeds that line of thinking.

[rumborak]

It was really a bummer when he pushed that approach for the second Flying Colors (the first had a proper producer). I think it hurt the album greatly. I think an outside producer might have realized what made the first one so special, and might have steered the group towards that again. Left to their own devices the group just fell into their old habits.

[King Postwhore]

I wonder if that's a money issue Rumbo.  I think the songs are stronger on the second album but I love the production on the first album.

[El Barto]

  Being the producer does not give him any authority over James.  He was still a fellow band member, which makes him a peer.

Honestly, I think it does and it also does relate to Kev's point about their roles in the band. To be clear I'm not on MP's side here. I'm the one that thinks he trivialized, if not bullied, two members of the band and created a hostile work environment. But since we're talking about the making of SC, it does seem to have been his role to insure that the vocals were done how he felt they should be.

As for its effect on him and his singing, I don't honestly see much. He's certainly singing more comfortably, but in a live setting I haven't noticed much improvement. In one of the recent DVDs I found his singing to vary from awesome to train-wreck, and that's pretty consistent with what I've always felt.

[jammindude]

Oh right that one was WDADRU. My bad! Been a while since I listened to them (especially as I have no other reason to watch WDADRU besides commentary).
Still, all MP did was discuss why they didn't do it that way. There was no mocking or shutting down as some people say.

You're right he didn't mock JM but he was pretty dismissive.

I agree.  The comment actually shocked me a bit when I first heard it.   I immediately thought, "I can't believe Mike left that in!  It really makes him look kinda like a douche." 

[rumborak]

I have not watched/listened to this in a long time. Anyone have a time stamp?

[bosk1]

Let me look it up.  Can't remember if I have it filed under "P" for "piling on Mike Portnoy" or "O" for "overblown non-controversy."

[El Barto]

Yeah, I'd be pretty interested in hearing it again, as well, since nobody else seems to have taken away the hostility that I did.

[jammindude]

I am in no way an MP basher...and even less so when I first heard it, and I was personally taken aback.

[KevShmev]

I don't remember it being that bad, but then again, my takeaway from most of those commentaries was how much Portnoy had to dominate them.  I lost track of how many times he interrupted one of the others.  It's like, they'd be in the middle of a cool story, and Portnoy would have just have to interrupt to tell some little tidbit about this moment or that moment, and then they'd never get back to the other guy finishing his story.  It was like the guy at a party who just had to be THE talker in every conversation that is going on.  Eventually, you just stop trying and you hope the guy just eventually talks himself out.

[El Barto]

I don't know that it was that bad, either. He wasn't disparaging his mom or anything. My takeaway from it was along the lines of JD's. I remember thinking it was pretty uncool, and seemed rather awkward in that you could hear a difference in JM's demeanor after that. My best recollection is that he dismissed an idea, but was laughing and joking while doing it, and then came back and made another joke about it later in the video.

And again, I could be completely off base, but it's just another of many thing that suggests to me that JM is probably happy as can be that he left.

[El Barto]

Let me look it up.  Can't remember if I have it filed under "P" for "piling on Mike Portnoy" or "O" for "overblown non-controversy."

Amusing, since all I did was add it to your long list of inferences that they weren't fond of each other.

[rumborak]

I was taken aback too when I heard it. It doesn't take a screaming MP to realize that somebody just put someone else in their place. It was particularly the casualness of it that was striking.

[Madman Shepherd]

I think its pretty clear that I am generally more critical of MP but I thought he did a great job with moderating the commentaries.  He wasn't as overbearing as everybody is claiming. 

[KevShmev]

A commentary shouldn't need moderating.  It should be guys sitting around shooting the breeze, instead of one guy controlling the entire thing.