Author Topic: Mike Portnoy  (Read 193450 times)

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1295 on: May 17, 2015, 11:14:58 AM »
^ Like the "MP is 100% definitely going to rejoin Dream Theater at some point " crowd.

Based on what ?

Offline Big Hath

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1296 on: May 17, 2015, 12:43:31 PM »
I knew MM wasn't happy in DT

I too would like to hear more about this.  Please regale us with how you acquired this knowledge.
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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1297 on: May 17, 2015, 12:49:39 PM »
I knew MM wasn't happy in DT

I too would like to hear more about this.  Please regale us with how you acquired this knowledge.

Because XBOBX is not happy. :lol
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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1298 on: May 17, 2015, 12:53:13 PM »
I knew MM wasn't happy in DT

I too would like to hear more about this.  Please regale us with how you acquired this knowledge.

Because XBOBX is not happy. :lol
Right. I think MM is not happy with Systematic Chaos! :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1299 on: May 17, 2015, 03:45:53 PM »
I knew MM wasn't happy in DT

I too would like to hear more about this.  Please regale us with how you acquired this knowledge.

I wouldn't be happy either.  Two albums in and people are still giving him shit about his drum sound, he's bending over backwards to change things about his playing personality to please the legion of DT fans.  All while dodging the shitstorm of 'bring back MP' comments all over facebook.  If I were him I'd be seriously considering joining Avenged Sevenfold or at least writing Never Enough pt II.

Offline Mosh

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1300 on: May 17, 2015, 05:04:36 PM »
Well, it sounds like the drum sound isn't his fault and that he even agrees with the fans complaining about it.
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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1301 on: May 17, 2015, 06:44:45 PM »
I knew MM wasn't happy in DT

I too would like to hear more about this.  Please regale us with how you acquired this knowledge.

I wouldn't be happy either.  Two albums in and people are still giving him shit about his drum sound, he's bending over backwards to change things about his playing personality to please the legion of DT fans.  All while dodging the shitstorm of 'bring back MP' comments all over facebook.  If I were him I'd be seriously considering joining Avenged Sevenfold or at least writing Never Enough pt II.

Could be. I have noticed that DT fans in general on facebook and elsewhere on the web seem much more negative than what you see from the diehards here.

Offline emtee

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1302 on: May 18, 2015, 07:17:40 AM »
Just to reiterate...the sound of the last 2 albums, especially the drums is NOT MM's fault.


Carry on

Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1303 on: May 18, 2015, 07:23:09 AM »
I dunno.  The amount of people saying that his snare sound at clinics sounded a lot like the album makes me wonder.  You could argue that if that sound wasn't what he wanted, and he didn't do anything to change it, then it IS his fault.

Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1304 on: May 18, 2015, 07:37:18 AM »
I'm sorry, but if I was the drummer in the band, and my snare sounded like shit in the studio. I'd make fucking sure the engineer or tech or whoever changed it so it sounded like I wanted it to sound. What age are we? Twelve?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1305 on: May 18, 2015, 07:47:30 AM »
^ This, totally.

It's your instrument, it's your job to make it sound good. If MM still has such a hired-gun status that he can't make sure his drum sound doesn't sound like a drum computer, then there's other issues.
I think everybody gave him leeway for ADTOE, but DT12 was really inexcusable in terms of drum sound.
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Offline emtee

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1306 on: May 18, 2015, 07:55:57 AM »
I'm not sure. I'm trying to give MM the benefit of the doubt. My take on things (which could be very wrong) is that his noob status
in the band left him without any clout to make sonic suggestions regarding his drum sound. Based on some of his comments I don't think he
liked the drum sounds on either album but felt like he would be stepping on JP's toes if he waded too deep in that direction, so he
measured his words very carefully and tried to ride the fence.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1307 on: May 18, 2015, 07:58:51 AM »
Well he's three albums and 5 years into the band now so i think it's about time he started having his way on the next album.

Offline The Curious Orange

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1308 on: May 18, 2015, 08:03:27 AM »
I don't have a problem with MM's drum sound. It's better than listening to MP riding that f*cking crash cymbal all the way through every f*cking song...
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1309 on: May 18, 2015, 08:22:29 AM »
I don't have a problem with MM's drum sound. It's better than listening to MP riding that f*cking crash cymbal all the way through every f*cking song...

Or doing his trademark Herta Fills around the kit over a ballad.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1310 on: May 18, 2015, 09:56:37 AM »
This has turned into an MM thread. Hehehe.

I think that MM was pretty clear in one interview that his drum sound was really a product of him and the team still trying to figure out how to record with his drum kit, which had problems of sound leakage. Here is the relevant portion of the interview by our fellow DTF member:

So do you have any goals for the next album, in terms of sound, in terms of drumming, maybe some stylistic changes that you’d like to try?


In terms of sound, again, I’m trying to learn with every experience I have, I learned a lot from the “Dream Theater” recording, and I learned a different thing from the “A Dramatic Turn Of Events” recording. From “A Dramatic Turn Of Events”, I learned a lot about almost sounding like there were two microphones in the room and that was it. That was not the case, but that’s my impression of my sound. It’s like, ok, there are those drums in the room, and you can hear all the leakage, because I have all that stuff…once you add a zillion tracks of guitar and keyboards, then my performed nuances and power disappears without detailed equalization strategies.

In terms of style, I’m at a new place after two albums and tours both in chops and comfort.

Τalking about the leakage, on the drum track of “On The Backs Of Angels” we can hear you humming, right after the piano solo where you get back on the track...

I’m sure you can, I’m always counting and stuff like that, yeah. My limbs fit into time. What is time and where here is it located? It is felt via my voice so my limbs have something tangible to connect to. On “Dream Theater”, I learned a lot about the feel with the time changes because my snare sound was completely different for me, I didn’t come up with it, and I evolved and changed because of that, here’s what I did: That really different sound made me put ghost notes off of the snare and on to ride cymbals and hi-hats, so essentially because of that change that was suggested to me, and because I was able to adapt to someone else’s ideas, I grew. I want to be clear about that, if I’m too stubborn with things that I want, the way I want them, how do you grow? But if something new comes along and I think “wow, this is really not what I want” but I’ll do it because people have a vision for something, I know that they trust me, that I’m a good guy, then let’s do it together, let’s work together and we’ll follow it.

And look what came out for me, some gem, I honestly would not go back and trade that just because that snare sound wasn’t something I wanted, because we all got something from it, right? So it is what it is, I know I’m going to grow with this next album. All I’m doing right now to prepare, is I have come up with ways to make everyone’s job a lot easier with manipulating my sound, and that will be for us to discuss in private, and for the guys to assess, the band engineer, to agree or disagree with me, because I’ve really worked hard trying to make things easier. I want to say I have a lot of 'junk' on my kit...

But you use all of it, it’s not junk!

Yeah I use it, but people can see it that way. I have a lot of stuff, I would not want to be the engineer having to try to isolate these sounds, it’s freaking impossible, I’m giving them a very tough job, so I’ve come up with ways to actually help that, so we’ll see what happens.

If I was engineering it, I would want at least a solid 4 or 5 days alone with it. I’d then want another two days after all the instruments are weaved in just to adjust to all those other frequencies. However, I basically have to get the drum sound set in a day or two. Once my sound it set, we don’t want to change it and I am not involved in the final production of it after the others still are taking time to craft their sounds. This is a big challenge for me because I am not hearing what the end result is when I record.

Jordan can work out his sounds at home as that’s what one can do with internal keyboard sounds. I cannot do that. When I take my 16 snare drums into different rooms, every single one of them changes. If another person hits them they change dramatically. It is bizarre. Also, the guitar gets worked on at some point every week for months while we’re in the studio. I don’t get that kind of time, luxury or flexibility, or foresight into possibly wanting to change some drum parts or sounds after I hear the decades of tracks put on top of them.

My toms exploded with transience on “Dream Theater.” They were incredible. However, you can’t do anything you want to the toms without affecting all the “ride” sources, which are the rides, hihats, effects and stacks, on my kit. My ride sources are more important to me than a snare drum will ever be. I think I’ve found a way to get more isolation in order to sound more like I play with regard to cutting through all the guitar and keyboard tracks.

Again, we’re all trying to evolve. I’m trying to make all of our jobs easier while shooting for the best compromise between how I hear things and create drum parts based on it, to how it is heard on the other side of the glass in the context of finished songs and a completely full sound spectrum where everyone wants to be heard the way they each perceive things.


Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1311 on: May 18, 2015, 05:50:15 PM »
I don't have a problem with MM's drum sound. It's better than listening to MP riding that f*cking crash cymbal all the way through every f*cking song...

Or doing his trademark Herta Fills around the kit over a ballad.

I don't have a problem with either of those things because MP's kit post I&W always sounded awesome. 

Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1312 on: May 19, 2015, 03:32:12 AM »
Wow, I guess that ends any chance of a great snare-sound on any future albums.  :|
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1313 on: May 19, 2015, 05:46:42 AM »
I think I’ve found a way to get more isolation

Ummm, use less drums maybs?

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1314 on: May 19, 2015, 08:16:31 AM »
I think I’ve found a way to get more isolation

Ummm, use less drums maybs?

I don't think that's the problem. MP's drumsets were always quite large but they always sounded great. I think the problem is how close together MM's drums are. His kit has a lot of parts but is pretty compact. It's harder to prevent bleed when the drums and cymbals are resonating closer to each other.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1315 on: May 19, 2015, 11:30:56 AM »
Wow, I guess that ends any chance of a great snare-sound on any future albums.  :|

I don't have high hopes either. A while ago MM posted on Facebook about a snare (can't remember the model), and how it sounded like a shotgun. I looked up the model, and it's essentially a marching drum snare. Now, of course we don't know whether he will actually use that snare for DT13, but given how DT12's snare sound could already be described as a shotgun sound, it looks rather likely he will.

I don't think that's the problem. MP's drumsets were always quite large but they always sounded great. I think the problem is how close together MM's drums are. His kit has a lot of parts but is pretty compact. It's harder to prevent bleed when the drums and cymbals are resonating closer to each other.

Well, I think the closeness is a *result* of him trying to cram too many drums around him. It's not as if had space to the left or right.
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Offline TL

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1316 on: May 19, 2015, 11:54:55 AM »
The main problem with his snare sound on DT was the combination of the style of snare and the flat, compressed sound of the record.
While I prefer much punchier, snappier snare sounds, the one he was using can definitely work in the right context. The problem was that the mix/master used for the main release of the album cuts away any sort of character that type of snare sound might have. It results in it sounding too blunt.

Basically, it's a snare sound that absolutely can work, and I get what he was going for with it, but it's also a very easy snare style to muck up somewhere along the way in production. Among other factors, it really demands a very dynamic production, and it's no secret that DT went very much in the opposite direction.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1317 on: May 19, 2015, 12:05:54 PM »
I think the part about the interview that really makes me a sad panda, is when he explains how he had to transfer the snare ghost notes onto the high-hat and ride. I mean, he tries to pitch it as "growing" and stuff, but there *is* a reason why ghost notes are played on the snare, not on high-hats or rides.
That measure of transferring them should be a last-resort thing to do, IMHO, the kind of thing you do when equipment breaks down at a live gig. When it happens in the studio, where the sound choice robs you of the key way of introducing dynamics in your play, that's when you take a step back and say "ok, let's talk about this here. This simply won't be good."
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Offline Cyclopssss

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1318 on: May 19, 2015, 12:17:32 PM »
Yeah that part got me as well. When I was a drummer I always loved playing ghost notes on the snare. I loved what they added to the sound. Guess it´s not much of a priority to Mike.
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Offline Mindflux

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1319 on: May 19, 2015, 12:20:13 PM »
That measure of transferring them should be a last-resort thing to do, IMHO, the kind of thing you do when equipment breaks down at a live gig. When it happens in the studio, where the sound choice robs you of the key way of introducing dynamics in your play, that's when you take a step back and say "ok, let's talk about this here. This simply won't be good."

I don't know much about what you're talking about, and I don't think the guys in DT are militant with what's going on in the studio.. that seemed like MP's thing... but if I was the new guy in the band I'm not sure I'd speak up about it either. 5 years later now? Sure.. he should have said something for DT12...



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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1320 on: May 19, 2015, 01:17:52 PM »
Rumbo, help me out here.  Sometimes what you hear in the studio playback sounds great at the time but during mixing you may here the issues and it's too late to correct?

I've only dealt with small studios with crap budgets knowing what we were getting into.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1321 on: May 19, 2015, 01:32:50 PM »
Rumbo, help me out here.  Sometimes what you hear in the studio playback sounds great at the time but during mixing you may here the issues and it's too late to correct?

I don't think this was a "crap, but did we get ourselves into" kind of situation that they only realized last minute, at least not for the snare sound (the EQ stuff they might have realized too late when the other instruments came in). MM says he had to adjust his playing style, which means he already had that sound during tracking.
I think no matter how you slice it, MM was fully aware of the drum sound and its consequences in the final mix.

Also, why would he only have 2 days of setup for a kit of that size? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if that was MP's schedule since he probably has honed his kit recording setup down to a T. But giving yourself 2 days for a kit that size seems to be like asking for trouble.
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Offline yorost

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1322 on: May 19, 2015, 01:48:33 PM »
That's bizarre. There's a passing similarity to Journey, I guess, but it's nowhere near the blatant "influences" they had on later albums.
It wouldn't surprise me if they had "Journey Escape riff" posted for somewhere around the 4:20 mark of IF. Not like it's a copy, but compare it to around the 1:40 mark of Escape.

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1323 on: May 19, 2015, 02:54:01 PM »
So, MM should use a smaller kit for recording to get a better ambiance and control the sound of each Tom and cymbal.   Thanks!
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1324 on: May 19, 2015, 03:15:53 PM »
I think I’ve found a way to get more isolation

Ummm, use less drums maybs?

I don't think that's the problem. MP's drumsets were always quite large but they always sounded great. I think the problem is how close together MM's drums are. His kit has a lot of parts but is pretty compact. It's harder to prevent bleed when the drums and cymbals are resonating closer to each other.

MP catered his kit to the song.  Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTmBU9lT_AY - Wither

Ane even on more complicated things, his kit is marginally smaller than MM's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUlsG0XVRU - TCoT


Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1325 on: May 19, 2015, 05:16:27 PM »
That's nice to see, yeah. At least in prog, quieter songs correlate with less busy, so you can let through the drum nuances by scaling down the kit.
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1326 on: May 19, 2015, 06:53:38 PM »
Those videos reminded me just how beautiful MP's drumming is. His playing style is almost melodic. It's incredible.
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Offline Tiko

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1327 on: May 20, 2015, 01:04:18 AM »
The main problem with his snare sound on DT was the combination of the style of snare and the flat, compressed sound of the record.
While I prefer much punchier, snappier snare sounds, the one he was using can definitely work in the right context.

Correction: the main problem was the very low tuning of the snare. Tuned higher it would've been punchier and snappier with more attack.

Sorry for the OT!

Offline rumborak

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1328 on: May 20, 2015, 08:56:03 AM »
Those videos reminded me just how beautiful MP's drumming is. His playing style is almost melodic. It's incredible.

It's interesting. I totally agree, and disagree at the same time. I think the TCOT drumming shows perfectly why he is considered a world class drummer, but yet not one of the "greats". He has his toolkit, I.e. the fills, the crash combinations, but he does not venture away from it. For example, he almost criminally underutilizes the main drum in from of him, the snare. It barely does more than mark the 4 on the beat.
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Offline Deathless

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Re: Mike Portnoy
« Reply #1329 on: May 21, 2015, 07:37:28 AM »
If you guys have time to kill, Mike did a 1.5 hour interview with Jamey Jasta on the Jasta Show. It's a good listen, he talks about DT, MA, WD and a ton of other stuff. It's not just an interview, but a conversation, which is refreshing. Check it!

Jamey Jasta Show
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 07:55:30 AM by Deathless »