Author Topic: More shootings...are the media creating more?  (Read 56842 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1995 on: July 03, 2018, 10:38:17 AM »
Jon Oliver did a great bit about Trump's normalization of bullshit. You should check it out.

And a perfect example is that now all politicians can dismiss anything they need simply by calling it fake news. While you might be correct that's more on the populace than the president, the fact is that he was the one with the cojones to try it, and because so many of his minions believe everything he says it's now pretty effective. It's like the Eddie Murphy bit about making a girl squeal. "Wasn't me." And now it works.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1996 on: July 03, 2018, 10:50:03 AM »
I think the difference between what Ozzie sings about and what the President says is primarily their position in society and their power. Just as there is a difference when one of your peers or your boss makes a disparaging remark about the clothes you're wearing.

Honest question:  why does that matter?   There are too many examples of Presidents saying things that ultimately did not get "normalized" but all of a sudden that's the fear here.    I mean no disrespect, but I fear the "normalization" isn't in Trump himself or the things that he says.  The "normalization" is already here, and that's in the way we handle - or not - our politicians.  That normalization didn't happen because of anything anyone said.   It came from good old fashioned Pavlovian psychology.

Because of the nature of leaders and followers. Especially, in an authoritarian environment. I think I can agree that it shouldn't matter but the followers would need to be a lot more skeptical of what their leaders say. With great power...etc.


Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1997 on: July 03, 2018, 10:52:11 AM »
Jon Oliver did a great bit about Trump's normalization of bullshit. You should check it out.

And a perfect example is that now all politicians can dismiss anything they need simply by calling it fake news. While you might be correct that's more on the populace than the president, the fact is that he was the one with the cojones to try it, and because so many of his minions believe everything he says it's now pretty effective. It's like the Eddie Murphy bit about making a girl squeal. "Wasn't me." And now it works.

I agree with your assessment/observation (for the most part) but that didn't start with Trump.   One thing you'll observe - and one of the insights that has informed my opinion of him - is that he's never what MBA's call "first to market".  He is what they call a "fast follower".   He might have coined the term "Fake NewsTM" - though I don't even credit him with that; we've heard the sobriquet "Faux News" for years to refer to Fox - but he didn't invent the strategic concept.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1998 on: July 03, 2018, 11:05:33 AM »
I think the difference between what Ozzie sings about and what the President says is primarily their position in society and their power. Just as there is a difference when one of your peers or your boss makes a disparaging remark about the clothes you're wearing.

Honest question:  why does that matter?   There are too many examples of Presidents saying things that ultimately did not get "normalized" but all of a sudden that's the fear here.    I mean no disrespect, but I fear the "normalization" isn't in Trump himself or the things that he says.  The "normalization" is already here, and that's in the way we handle - or not - our politicians.  That normalization didn't happen because of anything anyone said.   It came from good old fashioned Pavlovian psychology.

Because of the nature of leaders and followers. Especially, in an authoritarian environment. I think I can agree that it shouldn't matter but the followers would need to be a lot more skeptical of what their leaders say. With great power...etc.

Podaar, you may not be familiar with it, since I don't talk about it much here, but I have a pretty substantial theory about Trump.   I don't like him, I didn't vote for him, but I tend to push back a lot on the criticisms against him because I feel like there are a LOT of mistakes being made in the analysis of the Trump Presidency (not, by the way, by el Barto or the people in this forum; this isn't about him but a much broader comment).   I believe that Trump is NOT an anomaly or a singularity.  I do not at all believe that once he's out that we'll magically pop back to civility and common sense.   I believe he is the logical and inevitable next step in the progress of American politics since about the early '90's.   I call it the "pendulum theory".   So while I very much agree with your comment about "followers needing to be a lot more skeptical..." it's not just TRUMP followers.  It's ALL followers.   I believe that if we don't understand this and embrace it, our next President - whether Dem or Republican - is going to make Trump look like Abe Lincoln. 

Something like 10 million people (the estimate is anywhere from 6 to 9 million, to 9 to 12 million; I'll use 10 to make the point.  The actual number doesn't really matter here) voted for Obama TWICE and then voted for Trump.  Those are not "deplorables".  Those are not people that just woke up and said "Hey, you know what?  Today I'm going to give up carbs, and I'm going to embrace bigotry for a change!" But they bought in to "Change You Can Believe In" hook line and sinker and didn't do their homework, and it didn't pan out for them.  Now they're buying into "Make America Great Again".   Yeah, there are many that are just glad it's not the "Kenyan", but it's not that easy.   

What's been "normalized" is not "racism" or "Fake News!".  It's this idea - perpetuated and reinforced by social media, reality TV, and the identity politics of the last 10 years - that we all MATTER!  More importantly our OPINIONS matter!  That we think it is enough and we don't have to defend our ideas.  We don't have to justify them with facts.  It's mine!  Don't attack me! If I don't like the idea in that's in charge, I can just RESIST!  Or question their birth right! Or claim fake news! Or call them "deplorable!" NONE of those solutions involves any sort of informed debate, informed discourse, or facts of ANY kind.   

And I think it needs to be said:  we don't live in an authoritarian environment in any way, shape or form.   

Offline bosk1

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1999 on: July 03, 2018, 11:22:00 AM »
Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to figure out how this fits.  But, with all due respect to the current thread of discussion, aren't we drifting woefully off topic for what this specific thread is supposed to be about?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2000 on: July 03, 2018, 01:32:09 PM »
Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to figure out how this fits.  But, with all due respect to the current thread of discussion, aren't we drifting woefully off topic for what this specific thread is supposed to be about?

I'm like Columbo. I follow the evidence.  :)   I'm admittedly a zero when it comes to following the thread title if the subject starts to veer.   Sorry.

(Though I can answer your question:   we got here because of a tweet by our President in response to the shooting in Maryland; that tweet declared some of the information "Fake News", and we began commenting on the danger of such a declaration.)

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2001 on: July 03, 2018, 01:48:14 PM »
Jon Oliver did a great bit about Trump's normalization of bullshit. You should check it out.

And a perfect example is that now all politicians can dismiss anything they need simply by calling it fake news. While you might be correct that's more on the populace than the president, the fact is that he was the one with the cojones to try it, and because so many of his minions believe everything he says it's now pretty effective. It's like the Eddie Murphy bit about making a girl squeal. "Wasn't me." And now it works.

I agree with your assessment/observation (for the most part) but that didn't start with Trump.   One thing you'll observe - and one of the insights that has informed my opinion of him - is that he's never what MBA's call "first to market".  He is what they call a "fast follower".   He might have coined the term "Fake NewsTM" - though I don't even credit him with that; we've heard the sobriquet "Faux News" for years to refer to Fox - but he didn't invent the strategic concept.
He codified Fake News and legitimized (or more accureatly is legitimizing) the tactic. Also, Fake News is a specific thing. Faux news is just a silly sobriquet.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2002 on: July 03, 2018, 02:06:54 PM »
Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to figure out how this fits.  But, with all due respect to the current thread of discussion, aren't we drifting woefully off topic for what this specific thread is supposed to be about?

I'm like Columbo. I follow the evidence.  :)   I'm admittedly a zero when it comes to following the thread title if the subject starts to veer.   Sorry.

(Though I can answer your question:   we got here because of a tweet by our President in response to the shooting in Maryland; that tweet declared some of the information "Fake News", and we began commenting on the danger of such a declaration.)

Fair enough.  Carry on, Columbo.  I try not to overly be a stickler about strickly staying on topic because I recognize that good discussion often does involve tangents, and that veering off course is a legitimate and reasonable price to pay for good discussion.  But let's try and get it back into the general neighborhood of shootings, guns, etc., as soon as reasonably possible, okay?
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2003 on: July 03, 2018, 07:33:38 PM »
Well, this is America, most likely current events would have done that for us sooner rather than later.
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