Author Topic: More shootings...are the media creating more?  (Read 63530 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1995 on: July 03, 2018, 10:38:17 AM »
Jon Oliver did a great bit about Trump's normalization of bullshit. You should check it out.

And a perfect example is that now all politicians can dismiss anything they need simply by calling it fake news. While you might be correct that's more on the populace than the president, the fact is that he was the one with the cojones to try it, and because so many of his minions believe everything he says it's now pretty effective. It's like the Eddie Murphy bit about making a girl squeal. "Wasn't me." And now it works.
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Online Podaar

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1996 on: July 03, 2018, 10:50:03 AM »
I think the difference between what Ozzie sings about and what the President says is primarily their position in society and their power. Just as there is a difference when one of your peers or your boss makes a disparaging remark about the clothes you're wearing.

Honest question:  why does that matter?   There are too many examples of Presidents saying things that ultimately did not get "normalized" but all of a sudden that's the fear here.    I mean no disrespect, but I fear the "normalization" isn't in Trump himself or the things that he says.  The "normalization" is already here, and that's in the way we handle - or not - our politicians.  That normalization didn't happen because of anything anyone said.   It came from good old fashioned Pavlovian psychology.

Because of the nature of leaders and followers. Especially, in an authoritarian environment. I think I can agree that it shouldn't matter but the followers would need to be a lot more skeptical of what their leaders say. With great power...etc.


Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1997 on: July 03, 2018, 10:52:11 AM »
Jon Oliver did a great bit about Trump's normalization of bullshit. You should check it out.

And a perfect example is that now all politicians can dismiss anything they need simply by calling it fake news. While you might be correct that's more on the populace than the president, the fact is that he was the one with the cojones to try it, and because so many of his minions believe everything he says it's now pretty effective. It's like the Eddie Murphy bit about making a girl squeal. "Wasn't me." And now it works.

I agree with your assessment/observation (for the most part) but that didn't start with Trump.   One thing you'll observe - and one of the insights that has informed my opinion of him - is that he's never what MBA's call "first to market".  He is what they call a "fast follower".   He might have coined the term "Fake NewsTM" - though I don't even credit him with that; we've heard the sobriquet "Faux News" for years to refer to Fox - but he didn't invent the strategic concept.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1998 on: July 03, 2018, 11:05:33 AM »
I think the difference between what Ozzie sings about and what the President says is primarily their position in society and their power. Just as there is a difference when one of your peers or your boss makes a disparaging remark about the clothes you're wearing.

Honest question:  why does that matter?   There are too many examples of Presidents saying things that ultimately did not get "normalized" but all of a sudden that's the fear here.    I mean no disrespect, but I fear the "normalization" isn't in Trump himself or the things that he says.  The "normalization" is already here, and that's in the way we handle - or not - our politicians.  That normalization didn't happen because of anything anyone said.   It came from good old fashioned Pavlovian psychology.

Because of the nature of leaders and followers. Especially, in an authoritarian environment. I think I can agree that it shouldn't matter but the followers would need to be a lot more skeptical of what their leaders say. With great power...etc.

Podaar, you may not be familiar with it, since I don't talk about it much here, but I have a pretty substantial theory about Trump.   I don't like him, I didn't vote for him, but I tend to push back a lot on the criticisms against him because I feel like there are a LOT of mistakes being made in the analysis of the Trump Presidency (not, by the way, by el Barto or the people in this forum; this isn't about him but a much broader comment).   I believe that Trump is NOT an anomaly or a singularity.  I do not at all believe that once he's out that we'll magically pop back to civility and common sense.   I believe he is the logical and inevitable next step in the progress of American politics since about the early '90's.   I call it the "pendulum theory".   So while I very much agree with your comment about "followers needing to be a lot more skeptical..." it's not just TRUMP followers.  It's ALL followers.   I believe that if we don't understand this and embrace it, our next President - whether Dem or Republican - is going to make Trump look like Abe Lincoln. 

Something like 10 million people (the estimate is anywhere from 6 to 9 million, to 9 to 12 million; I'll use 10 to make the point.  The actual number doesn't really matter here) voted for Obama TWICE and then voted for Trump.  Those are not "deplorables".  Those are not people that just woke up and said "Hey, you know what?  Today I'm going to give up carbs, and I'm going to embrace bigotry for a change!" But they bought in to "Change You Can Believe In" hook line and sinker and didn't do their homework, and it didn't pan out for them.  Now they're buying into "Make America Great Again".   Yeah, there are many that are just glad it's not the "Kenyan", but it's not that easy.   

What's been "normalized" is not "racism" or "Fake News!".  It's this idea - perpetuated and reinforced by social media, reality TV, and the identity politics of the last 10 years - that we all MATTER!  More importantly our OPINIONS matter!  That we think it is enough and we don't have to defend our ideas.  We don't have to justify them with facts.  It's mine!  Don't attack me! If I don't like the idea in that's in charge, I can just RESIST!  Or question their birth right! Or claim fake news! Or call them "deplorable!" NONE of those solutions involves any sort of informed debate, informed discourse, or facts of ANY kind.   

And I think it needs to be said:  we don't live in an authoritarian environment in any way, shape or form.   

Offline bosk1

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1999 on: July 03, 2018, 11:22:00 AM »
Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to figure out how this fits.  But, with all due respect to the current thread of discussion, aren't we drifting woefully off topic for what this specific thread is supposed to be about?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2000 on: July 03, 2018, 01:32:09 PM »
Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to figure out how this fits.  But, with all due respect to the current thread of discussion, aren't we drifting woefully off topic for what this specific thread is supposed to be about?

I'm like Columbo. I follow the evidence.  :)   I'm admittedly a zero when it comes to following the thread title if the subject starts to veer.   Sorry.

(Though I can answer your question:   we got here because of a tweet by our President in response to the shooting in Maryland; that tweet declared some of the information "Fake News", and we began commenting on the danger of such a declaration.)

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2001 on: July 03, 2018, 01:48:14 PM »
Jon Oliver did a great bit about Trump's normalization of bullshit. You should check it out.

And a perfect example is that now all politicians can dismiss anything they need simply by calling it fake news. While you might be correct that's more on the populace than the president, the fact is that he was the one with the cojones to try it, and because so many of his minions believe everything he says it's now pretty effective. It's like the Eddie Murphy bit about making a girl squeal. "Wasn't me." And now it works.

I agree with your assessment/observation (for the most part) but that didn't start with Trump.   One thing you'll observe - and one of the insights that has informed my opinion of him - is that he's never what MBA's call "first to market".  He is what they call a "fast follower".   He might have coined the term "Fake NewsTM" - though I don't even credit him with that; we've heard the sobriquet "Faux News" for years to refer to Fox - but he didn't invent the strategic concept.
He codified Fake News and legitimized (or more accureatly is legitimizing) the tactic. Also, Fake News is a specific thing. Faux news is just a silly sobriquet.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2002 on: July 03, 2018, 02:06:54 PM »
Maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention to figure out how this fits.  But, with all due respect to the current thread of discussion, aren't we drifting woefully off topic for what this specific thread is supposed to be about?

I'm like Columbo. I follow the evidence.  :)   I'm admittedly a zero when it comes to following the thread title if the subject starts to veer.   Sorry.

(Though I can answer your question:   we got here because of a tweet by our President in response to the shooting in Maryland; that tweet declared some of the information "Fake News", and we began commenting on the danger of such a declaration.)

Fair enough.  Carry on, Columbo.  I try not to overly be a stickler about strickly staying on topic because I recognize that good discussion often does involve tangents, and that veering off course is a legitimate and reasonable price to pay for good discussion.  But let's try and get it back into the general neighborhood of shootings, guns, etc., as soon as reasonably possible, okay?
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2003 on: July 03, 2018, 07:33:38 PM »
Well, this is America, most likely current events would have done that for us sooner rather than later.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2004 on: July 23, 2018, 08:48:42 AM »
Will be curious to see if they can figure out the motive behind this.

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2005 on: July 23, 2018, 09:00:08 AM »
I can't believe how many people that guy hit. From what I've read, it doesn't look like he reloaded at all and he still managed to hit 14 with a handgun. 

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2006 on: July 23, 2018, 09:03:05 AM »
I can't believe how many people that guy hit. From what I've read, it doesn't look like he reloaded at all and he still managed to hit 14 with a handgun.

They said it was Ďcrowdedí so I guess it was the truest sense of that word. Almost like not even having to aim to hit something.

Iím curious as to if itís a disgruntled former employee, terrorist or just a nut job. The brief video he looked to be walking pretty brisk and like he was almost nervous?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2007 on: July 23, 2018, 10:11:55 AM »
My best guess is that he saw that girl's leather pants and lost his fucking mind.

I can't believe how many people that guy hit. From what I've read, it doesn't look like he reloaded at all and he still managed to hit 14 with a handgun. 
That handgun probably had a 15 rd mag plus one in the snout. That gives him 16 shots before reloading. You figure half those hits were to extremities and it's not all that surprising. What's telling to me is that he shot 14 and only 2 died. While I maintain that assault weapon bans are pointless bullshit, there is very definitely something that needs to be discussed regarding the ammo we allow people to use.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2008 on: July 23, 2018, 10:27:38 AM »
While I maintain that assault weapon bans are pointless bullshit, there is very definitely something that needs to be discussed regarding the ammo we allow people to use.

very true. Firing (16) 9 mm rounds into a crowd at 1250 feet per second is a heck of a lot different than firing (16) .223 rounds at 3750 feet per second.

I'm not suggesting that the more devastating ammo be 'banned'  but I do think that added layers of precaution and checks to purchase them should be in place.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2009 on: July 26, 2018, 12:45:41 PM »
So this Clearwater shooting really bugs the hell out of me. As a rule I'm a defender of the principle behind stand your ground. A person should be able to defend himself without the fear of legal action.1 It seems that in their zeal to immunize such cases states have given people a pass to act like kill-crazy assholes, though. While I defended that shitbag George Zimmerman from the legal standpoint I also maintained that he bore a good deal of responsibility for what happened and it wasn't necessary for somebody to end up dead. This more recent shitbag is a whole different story, though.

I had a conversation with my mechanic a few weeks ago. He carries a tiny little Sig .380 with him everywhere he goes. I mentioned that I didn't carry because I don't want to have to change my mindset to "armed" every time I went to the store. His reply was interesting. He said it changed his mindset for the better. He now avoids confrontation, road-rage, etc., as best he can because he doesn't want things to escalate to the point that Mr. Sig comes into play. Numbnuts in Florida seems to be the opposite case. I have to wonder if he would have confronted people over a parking space if he weren't packing. I'm guessing that he wouldn't.

However, he has the right to be armed. So be it. The concerning part for me is the expansion of what we're calling SYG into what we now have. This guy started the altercation. Had he minded his own business everybody would still be alive. The dead guy walked out to find some buy accosting his wife and acted the same way any of us would have, and as it turns out he unwittingly walked into a gunfight with nothing but his fists. Numbnuts will walk on this in the highly unlikely event the state decides to waste its time trying him. The practical upshot of Florida's SYG law is that there's nothing stopping you from provoking a fight so that you can shoot somebody. Is this really what anybody wants?

Moreover, the last expansion of SYG in Florida changed the legal standard by which self defense is judged. Rather than having to prove that the guy backing away posed an immediate threat of serious bodily injury, the burden is not on the state to prove that he didn't. How is it possible to prove that somebody didn't pose a threat? This seems pretty asinine to me.

Honestly, I'm a pretty pro-gun ownship kind of guy, but it really annoys me that so many gun owners are such awful, awful people. Frankly, a great many of them shouldn't own guns in the first place.


1I still maintain that if you're capable of pondering the legal consequences then you are not in such immediate peril that you have to shoot somebody.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2010 on: July 26, 2018, 12:56:06 PM »
The practical upshot of Florida's SYG law is that there's nothing stopping you from provoking a fight so that you can shoot somebody. Is this really what anybody wants?

This is essentially the very first thought I had when hearing about this story.  One can instigate an altercation, get a reaction from the other party, then kill them and get off scott-free.  Sounds like what Zimmerman did to a certain extent.  Sounds like what this handi-cap card carrying douchewaffle did too.  There wouldn't even need to be a physical altercation.  In this case, imagine if McGlokton just towered over him and verbally threatened/intimidated him.  Drejka could just as easily claim SYG.  I guess the lesson here is that the girlfriend should've shot Drejka in the first place to "stand her ground".

"He had to shoot to defend himself" 

#shakemyfuckinghead

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2011 on: July 26, 2018, 01:08:40 PM »
This guy started the altercation

It's different in MO. If you start an altercation and it ends up with you shooting someone....you're not across the board protected by our SYG law. You may be able to prove you ultimately felt your life was in danger but it becomes way more difficult for you to cite any of our gun laws as a a defense if YOU start the fight. And it SHOULD be that way.

EB...I've taken the approach your mechanic has for the past 10 years of carrying a weapon. I don't look at it as 'I have a gun....I can do/say whatever I want and act all tough'. I look at it almost as I need to lay as low as possible and make sure 'if' I ever need to use my weapon it's a dang good reason.

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2012 on: July 26, 2018, 01:38:02 PM »
Without getting in to the gun aspect of this case, I think we as a civilized society really need to rethink what types of situations become, as Jim Rome would say "A reason to go." It's a fucking parking space you assholes. A parking space led to: A confrontation --> A heated argument --> Someone shoving someone else to the ground --> someone shooting someone else. What do you think George?

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2013 on: July 26, 2018, 08:32:38 PM »
Without getting in to the gun aspect of this case, I think we as a civilized society really need to rethink what types of situations become, as Jim Rome would say "A reason to go." It's a fucking parking space you assholes. A parking space led to: A confrontation --> A heated argument --> Someone shoving someone else to the ground --> someone shooting someone else.

So freaking true. The smallest things set people off and itís only getting worse.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2014 on: July 27, 2018, 06:50:05 AM »
Without getting in to the gun aspect of this case, I think we as a civilized society really need to rethink what types of situations become, as Jim Rome would say "A reason to go." It's a fucking parking space you assholes. A parking space led to: A confrontation --> A heated argument --> Someone shoving someone else to the ground --> someone shooting someone else.

So freaking true. The smallest things set people off and itís only getting worse.

This. Considering how bleak everything seems thanks to the constant media/political bickering it's really hard to say that America is a bad place to live. People need some perspective before they get to the point of murder over a parking space.

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2015 on: July 27, 2018, 06:52:57 AM »
I no longer scream obscenities at people on the highway because of shit like this. 

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2016 on: July 27, 2018, 07:42:56 AM »
I was with my wife in NM once (where she is from) and mouthed off to someone in a parking lot for some reason I do not recall, and she forcibly pulled me aside and told me that doing something like that there can get a guy shot.

I struggled with that, thinking if we ignore thugish behavior we just let them win (as the area she grew up is overridden with gangs and crime), and she informed me that as we were recently married with a young child it wasn't my battle to fight.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2017 on: July 29, 2018, 01:36:24 PM »
I don't know that this is a gun problem as much as it is a dickhead problem.  It's all over our society.  Can't let a tweet go by online without sticking your nose in to reply.   Can't let that asshole merge in ahead of me; fuck him he should have merged back there.   Can't let that car behind me go by; fuck him I'm going fast enough for anyone, because I'm the most reasonable person in the world, don't you see that??   Can't let that kid in Sarasota get by with that horrible joke about slavery; fuck him, I'm offended and he needs to be PUNISHED, to beat the (it certainly isn't "racism", it's more like "bad sense of humor") out of him!   

Offline vtgrad

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2018 on: July 30, 2018, 09:39:36 AM »
So this Clearwater shooting really bugs the hell out of me. As a rule I'm a defender of the principle behind stand your ground. A person should be able to defend himself without the fear of legal action.1 It seems that in their zeal to immunize such cases states have given people a pass to act like kill-crazy assholes, though. While I defended that shitbag George Zimmerman from the legal standpoint I also maintained that he bore a good deal of responsibility for what happened and it wasn't necessary for somebody to end up dead. This more recent shitbag is a whole different story, though.

I had a conversation with my mechanic a few weeks ago. He carries a tiny little Sig .380 with him everywhere he goes. I mentioned that I didn't carry because I don't want to have to change my mindset to "armed" every time I went to the store. His reply was interesting. He said it changed his mindset for the better. He now avoids confrontation, road-rage, etc., as best he can because he doesn't want things to escalate to the point that Mr. Sig comes into play. Numbnuts in Florida seems to be the opposite case. I have to wonder if he would have confronted people over a parking space if he weren't packing. I'm guessing that he wouldn't.

However, he has the right to be armed. So be it. The concerning part for me is the expansion of what we're calling SYG into what we now have. This guy started the altercation. Had he minded his own business everybody would still be alive. The dead guy walked out to find some buy accosting his wife and acted the same way any of us would have, and as it turns out he unwittingly walked into a gunfight with nothing but his fists. Numbnuts will walk on this in the highly unlikely event the state decides to waste its time trying him. The practical upshot of Florida's SYG law is that there's nothing stopping you from provoking a fight so that you can shoot somebody. Is this really what anybody wants?

Moreover, the last expansion of SYG in Florida changed the legal standard by which self defense is judged. Rather than having to prove that the guy backing away posed an immediate threat of serious bodily injury, the burden is not on the state to prove that he didn't. How is it possible to prove that somebody didn't pose a threat? This seems pretty asinine to me.

Honestly, I'm a pretty pro-gun ownship kind of guy, but it really annoys me that so many gun owners are such awful, awful people. Frankly, a great many of them shouldn't own guns in the first place.


1I still maintain that if you're capable of pondering the legal consequences then you are not in such immediate peril that you have to shoot somebody.

Scream it from the roof-tops brother... and your Mechanic not only hit the nail on the head, he drove that nail with one hammer strike.  To keep the Seinfeld theme "Do you know what a good mechanic is worth?"

You guys all have read how I feel about my state's open carry law (Virginia) and the seeming mind-set of the people who keep to that law and decide not to obtain a concealed permit... the guy in Clearwater strikes me as that type of person (have no idea if FL has an open-carry law).  I believe that if a person's mind-set DOESN'T change (in the manner the mechanic mentions) because they're packin' then they probably shouldn't be packin'.  In all honesty, we've got some local yokle Johnny in my area that shouldn't be packin' heat at all based on how they've acted in every-day non-law enforcement situations. 

How could this guy start an open-air altercation (no Castle Doctrine to fall back on), get shoved to the ground with no additional move by the the other party toward him while he's on the ground, be justified for pulling and using a deadly weapon?  I maybe could understand if the other gentlemen kept coming or was beating his a$$ into the pavement but he (the victim) made no other moves toward the shooter.  Can no one in this society take an a$$ beating or stand up for themselves without a weapon?  Why does this guy care about the handicap spot anyway?  Does he own the store?  Is he handicapped himself?  There's all kinds of wrong with this type of story.

What would this shooter have done if someone else had drawn-down on him for what he was doing... how far could this have gone over a parking spot?  Silly reason for a child not to have his father anymore.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2019 on: July 30, 2018, 12:16:14 PM »
But shoulda woulda coulda.   I generally agree with el Barto on this, but "shouldn't have guns to begin with" is a really subjective thing, and I always bristle at the guv'mint telling people what they can and can't do.  I'm far more open to the idea of changing the standard for SYG, or changing the penalties for when you abuse SYG and someone ends up shot.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2020 on: July 31, 2018, 10:32:44 AM »
Wasn't sure if this warrants a separate thread or not, but what does everyone think about people being able to print their own plastic guns with a 3D printer? I don't personally see how this isn't a terrible idea.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2021 on: July 31, 2018, 10:37:50 AM »
Wasn't sure if this warrants a separate thread or not, but what does everyone think about people being able to print their own plastic guns with a 3D printer? I don't personally see how this isn't a terrible idea.
If you're a hitman it's a wonderful thing. For everybody else it's probably a non-story. It's simply easier to buy a gun either legitimately or in the parking lot of a 711. If you can't afford to buy one then you can't afford to print one. As for hijackers: bullets are made of metal.

Printed silencers, though. . .
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Online portnoy311

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2022 on: July 31, 2018, 11:18:31 AM »
Wasn't sure if this warrants a separate thread or not, but what does everyone think about people being able to print their own plastic guns with a 3D printer? I don't personally see how this isn't a terrible idea.
If you're a hitman it's a wonderful thing. For everybody else it's probably a non-story. It's simply easier to buy a gun either legitimately or in the parking lot of a 711. If you can't afford to buy one then you can't afford to print one. As for hijackers: bullets are made of metal.

Printed silencers, though. . .

Right now sure. In 10, 20, 30 years as tech keeps improving? Printing is only going to get better and easier.

Offline cramx3

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2023 on: July 31, 2018, 11:46:49 AM »
I'm not sure it's an issue today, and maybe in 20 years it is and we can revisit, but I'm not entirely sure how you enforce this regardless.  If printers become a household item and you can download schematics, there will be a dark web for the things you shouldn't be printing.  Sure we can make laws saying that's not allowed, but the enforcement seems no different than being able to enforce laws on the dark web now.  I guess, I don't see the point in investing money to solve something that isn't really a problem, at least not a part of the real problem with guns in the US.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2024 on: July 31, 2018, 12:05:17 PM »
I'm not sure it's an issue today, and maybe in 20 years it is and we can revisit, but I'm not entirely sure how you enforce this regardless.  If printers become a household item and you can download schematics, there will be a dark web for the things you shouldn't be printing.  Sure we can make laws saying that's not allowed, but the enforcement seems no different than being able to enforce laws on the dark web now.  I guess, I don't see the point in investing money to solve something that isn't really a problem, at least not a part of the real problem with guns in the US.
This is pretty much the point of the guy who's behind all of this. While he does seem like a minor gun-nut, he's a major cyber-anarchist. His goal doesn't seem to be guns for everybody. Hell, I can't figure out how he makes any money at all from this. He just wants to blow a big, cannon sized whole through governmental restrictions in support for the free exchange of ideas.

What interests me is that this has become another political football for the pro and anti gun crowd. The NRA1 and 2A folks must consider this a victory. Schummer naturally has his panties in a bunch. If this cyber-anarchist decides to publish the files to print a prepubescent sex doll will the right be just as strident in it's free exchange of ideas stance?  Not a chance.

Lastly, I think there's a possibility this backfires. I think he's opening an avenue for more/different restrictions on gun ownership at a time when the NRA crowd has everything rolling in their favor. If I were whichever soulless whore currently runs the NRA I'd be wanting to keep things pretty low key right now.



1As the lobbying arm of the gun manufacturers you'd think they'd be up in arms about this.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2025 on: August 01, 2018, 08:20:37 AM »
I don't think this is a gun issue at all, at least not at it's essence.  This is, however, a great example of how ill-equipped we are intellectually and psychologically to handle information that doesn't jibe with our world-view, despite the most advanced communications systems the world has ever seen (or even contemplated, at least up to about 25 years ago).  I don't see this as any different in essence than the SJW that can't allow distasteful jokes that involve race, or sexual interaction that involves (legal) imbalance of power.   

With that screed over, in all seriousness, I hope that this can focus the question.   It's not guns, and it never was.   I would  hope that this puts to rest the idea that we can control these inanimate objects and continue to absolutely ignore the psychological and sociological drivers that have, in the last 25 years or so, made the idea that we can kill mass numbers of people and we'll be somehow vindicated or elevated from whatever plane we felt we were stuck on.    It's like a volcano; its not going to be dissipated or relieved by a couple of feel-good laws about gun ownership.    We're not changing minds here AT ALL.   

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2026 on: August 01, 2018, 10:56:00 AM »
I don't think this is a gun issue at all, at least not at it's essence.  This is, however, a great example of how ill-equipped we are intellectually and psychologically to handle information that doesn't jibe with our world-view, despite the most advanced communications systems the world has ever seen (or even contemplated, at least up to about 25 years ago).  I don't see this as any different in essence than the SJW that can't allow distasteful jokes that involve race, or sexual interaction that involves (legal) imbalance of power.   

With that screed over, in all seriousness, I hope that this can focus the question.   It's not guns, and it never was.   I would  hope that this puts to rest the idea that we can control these inanimate objects and continue to absolutely ignore the psychological and sociological drivers that have, in the last 25 years or so, made the idea that we can kill mass numbers of people and we'll be somehow vindicated or elevated from whatever plane we felt we were stuck on.    It's like a volcano; its not going to be dissipated or relieved by a couple of feel-good laws about gun ownership.    We're not changing minds here AT ALL.

Who is ignoring the psychological factors? Every time a mass shooting happens we're told it's a 'mental health issue', by the SAME EXACT elected officials who then make it harder for those at risk to get mental health treatment. Shutting down twitter is not the answer to the psychological factors at play here.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2027 on: August 01, 2018, 12:22:33 PM »
I don't think this is a gun issue at all, at least not at it's essence.  This is, however, a great example of how ill-equipped we are intellectually and psychologically to handle information that doesn't jibe with our world-view, despite the most advanced communications systems the world has ever seen (or even contemplated, at least up to about 25 years ago).  I don't see this as any different in essence than the SJW that can't allow distasteful jokes that involve race, or sexual interaction that involves (legal) imbalance of power.   

With that screed over, in all seriousness, I hope that this can focus the question.   It's not guns, and it never was.   I would  hope that this puts to rest the idea that we can control these inanimate objects and continue to absolutely ignore the psychological and sociological drivers that have, in the last 25 years or so, made the idea that we can kill mass numbers of people and we'll be somehow vindicated or elevated from whatever plane we felt we were stuck on.    It's like a volcano; its not going to be dissipated or relieved by a couple of feel-good laws about gun ownership.    We're not changing minds here AT ALL.

Who is ignoring the psychological factors? Every time a mass shooting happens we're told it's a 'mental health issue', by the SAME EXACT elected officials who then make it harder for those at risk to get mental health treatment. Shutting down twitter is not the answer to the psychological factors at play here.

Well, with that snarky reply, clearly YOU are. :) I'm not talking about ANY elected officials, let alone the same ones that do anything else.   Fact is, it takes a special mindset to watch a child bleed out in front of you, be it by gunshot, knife wound or the bumper of your car.   To the extent that anyone is making it harder to get mental health treatment - and I don't think I'm dangerously out on that limb when I say that "we'll likely have to debate what you mean by "making it harder" - then that needs to be addressed.  But let's take the bandwidth that we're "RESIST!-ING" and "protesting" and advocating for kids bleating the party line, and direct them to the issue at hand.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2028 on: August 01, 2018, 12:52:05 PM »
I don't think this is a gun issue at all, at least not at it's essence.  This is, however, a great example of how ill-equipped we are intellectually and psychologically to handle information that doesn't jibe with our world-view, despite the most advanced communications systems the world has ever seen (or even contemplated, at least up to about 25 years ago).  I don't see this as any different in essence than the SJW that can't allow distasteful jokes that involve race, or sexual interaction that involves (legal) imbalance of power.   

With that screed over, in all seriousness, I hope that this can focus the question.   It's not guns, and it never was.   I would  hope that this puts to rest the idea that we can control these inanimate objects and continue to absolutely ignore the psychological and sociological drivers that have, in the last 25 years or so, made the idea that we can kill mass numbers of people and we'll be somehow vindicated or elevated from whatever plane we felt we were stuck on.    It's like a volcano; its not going to be dissipated or relieved by a couple of feel-good laws about gun ownership.    We're not changing minds here AT ALL.

Who is ignoring the psychological factors? Every time a mass shooting happens we're told it's a 'mental health issue', by the SAME EXACT elected officials who then make it harder for those at risk to get mental health treatment. Shutting down twitter is not the answer to the psychological factors at play here.

Well, with that snarky reply, clearly YOU are. :) I'm not talking about ANY elected officials, let alone the same ones that do anything else.   Fact is, it takes a special mindset to watch a child bleed out in front of you, be it by gunshot, knife wound or the bumper of your car.   To the extent that anyone is making it harder to get mental health treatment - and I don't think I'm dangerously out on that limb when I say that "we'll likely have to debate what you mean by "making it harder" - then that needs to be addressed.  But let's take the bandwidth that we're "RESIST!-ING" and "protesting" and advocating for kids bleating the party line, and direct them to the issue at hand.
I'm not sure the RESISTORs and protestors aren't being more productive. The fact is that the mental health angle is bullshit. It's simplistic and it merely makes us feel better about ourselves. The pro-gun crowd (and plenty of liberals, as well) are chasing the wrong rabbit. As I've said all along this isn't a crazy person problem, but rather an asshole problem. I don't know if the RESIST crowd will help or hurt the asshole situation, but I think it will at least have some effect. In the end both sides are trying to do something to promote "right" thinking, and we both know why that's bullshit. It seems the lefties are doing it at a sociological level, though, rather than an institutional one, and that's really where it's going to need to happen.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #2029 on: August 01, 2018, 01:24:11 PM »
Well, I'll take responsibility for mis-using the term "mental health".  I don't mean "sickness" or "insanity".  I mean "the asshole problem".   I just feel like it's a solvable one with enough effort.   

I'd respectfully ask you to expand on the "lefties doing it from a sociological level" though, because I don't see that.  There's nothing "sociological" about the Murphy approach.  He's total institution in his fervent belief that we are but one good law away from solving the school killing problem.    We're not, Chris.  Not even close.