Author Topic: More shootings...are the media creating more?  (Read 54812 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1960 on: May 24, 2018, 11:02:48 AM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.

It's possible that this is why we don't see these kind of incidents in the inner cities that are known for their gangs and violence. Life on the streets is a life of constant frustration and venting. It never bottles up to the point where someone snaps and decides to kill 20 children.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1961 on: May 24, 2018, 11:39:29 AM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.

It's possible that this is why we don't see these kind of incidents in the inner cities that are known for their gangs and violence. Life on the streets is a life of constant frustration and venting. It never bottles up to the point where someone snaps and decides to kill 20 children.
I'm thinking it has to do with the acceptance that much of what they're told is bullshit. I think they learn from experience that they can't have everything they want. There's no entitlement and no disillusionment.
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Offline Chino

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1962 on: May 24, 2018, 12:04:28 PM »


Is there a correlation between Muslims and guns that I'm missing?

Offline kaos2900

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1963 on: May 24, 2018, 12:19:46 PM »
That picture looks totally photo shopped to me.

Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1964 on: May 24, 2018, 12:22:35 PM »


Is there a correlation between Muslims and guns that I'm missing?

Well... muslims are not shooting up your schools?

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1965 on: May 24, 2018, 02:37:30 PM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.
Or all of the guys who marched to Mosul, lured by the promise of a never ending stream of Yazidi tail. I've said this all along. But what do they have in common with some white kid from suburban Florida? Seems they'd have more in common with some inner-city black kid. Perhaps it's not so much entitlement but disillusionment.

El Barto, I promise you I am not being flip or cavalier here, but what they have in common is the human brain; it only has so many ways of coping.   And one of the ways is that it erupts in anger and violence.   We see this on almost every level.   How many times have you seen a player like a Gronkowski that is late in the third quarter hasn't caught a pass because of excellent coverage and scheming, and then takes a shitty 15-yard penalty out of sheer frustration?  Or that guitar player that fiddles with his amp for 1 1/2 of a 2 hour show and finally hurls his guitar into the stage because it's just not working (watch Blackmore in the '74 California Jam show where he does exactly that, although it's over a camera guy in his face the whole show, not the sound).   

I think what I'm saying (and I have reason to believe you probably are mostly in agreement with me here, at least conceptually) is that the methods are different for different people.  Not everyone reacts the same.  I walk away, but I find I drink more in times of stress.  I know a guy (he's NOT a friend, in fact my stepson and I have joked about tuning him up at some point) he fucks.   He literally will get sex however and where ever he can, including his girlfriends friends, and his male friends girlfriends.  It's almost a sickness.  He gets high and hits on the women around him (it helps that the self-esteem of all the girls in that circle that I know personally could fit into Tony Iommi's finger caps).   Others turn to music; it's not a mistake that many, MANY famous musicians were NOT the captain of the high school football team back then, but channeled their rage into their music. 

I think you see signs of this all over America today and we're oblivious to it, because not all the signs translate into dead children.   I think this incessant need to be all over social media is part of it.  I think the opioid epidemic is part of it.  I think the bullying in schools is part of it (and it's a cyclical part of it).   I've written about this before; the US leads the world in women on antidepressants; I've written about this before, but when I got divorced, I went on Match for a spell.  I am not a good looking man, I don't bring Ben Affleck/Leo DiCaprio skills to the table, but that 30 to 40 year old female demographic was almost like shooting fish in a barrel, excluse the pun.  Not all of them, not even most of them, but a shocking number of women in that age, coming out of a relationship where they realized that the stallion from high school is a turd as an adult, and facing the other side of the hill, and in talking with some of these women, it was clear to me it is/was a PROFOUNDLY frustrating experience.   With no conscience and a little bit of diligence*, I easily could have had a one-night stand once or twice a week.    It's all like a flywheel, turning and turning and compounding and compounding and building and building... until it gets released.  Since 2000, there are 200 roughly instances of that being released in the form of bullets at or near a school.    What about the other 60 million people (my rough estimate of the number of males under the age of 30 in America; I can use under 18 if you want, which I know to be just less than half of 75 million, or about 37 million)?


* Meaning, spending time online messaging women; I don't mean "diligence" as in persistence or not taking no for an answer; that's my point.  There was no need to get into #MeToo territory; it wasn't necessary.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 02:43:40 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1966 on: May 24, 2018, 02:48:42 PM »
No, noone has said that if you take away the gun you take away the violence.
If you take away the easy access to guns you do put hurdles in front of the would be perpetrator. Hurdles that might give the authorities the chance to stop him or give him time to cool down...
Some acts of violence can be stopped if you take away the gun.
It is soo easy to stand away and pull the trigger. Someone who is capable of doing that is not automatically capable of stabbing people with a sword or a knife for instance...

I understand your position very well.  I get it.  I disagree with it as a policy platform moving forward.   

The next step is not "de-escalate", the next step is "escalate".   The woman - blanking on her name, but incredibly smart, dare I say, attractive, and served as Presidenti Obama's Homeland Security Director for a spell - said just that on CNN in the wake of the Santa Fe shooting.   She was incredibly eloquent - far more eloquent than I - but she said, in a nutshell, what I've been saying here.   She's for some reasonable administrative measures - the usual; background checks, licensing, close the gunshow loopholes - but she very clearly and very adamantly said "we've got to find out why these kids are doing these things, because we can already see that it's escalating."    NONE of the "common sense" measures would have prevented Santa Fe.  They did EVERYTHING right (well, except for that dad.  "Honey, how about a gun cabinet for Christmas?"), and it still happened. 

EDIT: Her name is Juliette Kayyem.  I had the title wrong: she was Assistant Secretary for Intergovernmental Affairs in Homeland, under Janet Napolitano and Jeh Johnson. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1967 on: May 24, 2018, 02:56:03 PM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.

It's possible that this is why we don't see these kind of incidents in the inner cities that are known for their gangs and violence. Life on the streets is a life of constant frustration and venting. It never bottles up to the point where someone snaps and decides to kill 20 children.
I'm thinking it has to do with the acceptance that much of what they're told is bullshit. I think they learn from experience that they can't have everything they want. There's no entitlement and no disillusionment.

I think there's truth in that.  I don't mean to be flip, but it's hard to be disillusioned if you have no expectations to begin with.  Broad strokes, but still.    Thomas Freidman, in his book "From Beirut To Jerusalem" (and again in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree") posited that much of the hate you see from the native Muslim community is rooted in that; they are told early on that Allah is not a religion but a way of life, and that the tenets of the Koran are not a religious guideline, but a societal law, and from that good things will follow.  Then they see the opulent and vulgar display of wealth and ostentatiousness - Brad Pitt is (to them) jumping the gun a little on his enjoyment of the 72 virgins - from the West, from people that haven't put in the effort or the sacrifice, and it builds resentment and frustration.   I am grossly simplifying, but you can (and should; it's an excellent resource) read the book yourself and dig in a little. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1968 on: May 24, 2018, 02:57:29 PM »
That picture looks totally photo shopped to me.

It's a Florida license plate, though, so it could go either way.

Offline El Barto

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1969 on: May 24, 2018, 03:56:59 PM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.

It's possible that this is why we don't see these kind of incidents in the inner cities that are known for their gangs and violence. Life on the streets is a life of constant frustration and venting. It never bottles up to the point where someone snaps and decides to kill 20 children.
I'm thinking it has to do with the acceptance that much of what they're told is bullshit. I think they learn from experience that they can't have everything they want. There's no entitlement and no disillusionment.

I think there's truth in that.  I don't mean to be flip, but it's hard to be disillusioned if you have no expectations to begin with.  Broad strokes, but still.    Thomas Freidman, in his book "From Beirut To Jerusalem" (and again in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree") posited that much of the hate you see from the native Muslim community is rooted in that; they are told early on that Allah is not a religion but a way of life, and that the tenets of the Koran are not a religious guideline, but a societal law, and from that good things will follow.  Then they see the opulent and vulgar display of wealth and ostentatiousness - Brad Pitt is (to them) jumping the gun a little on his enjoyment of the 72 virgins - from the West, from people that haven't put in the effort or the sacrifice, and it builds resentment and frustration.   I am grossly simplifying, but you can (and should; it's an excellent resource) read the book yourself and dig in a little.
Well, I think we're hitting on why some of these kids go off the reservation and others don't. That doesn't really address why the choose to depart while gunning down classmates, though. This is going to be an off the wall bit of empirical data to throw out, but I've been watching Dragnet reruns at the shop. Jack Webb ruled. In 1967 they're having much of he same conversation we're having here. So-Cal was just as full of disillusioned kids trying to cope way back then. Not only are they realizing that so much of what they've been told is bullshit, they also assume Comrade Dave's team is going to nuke them any minte. Except in 1967 when the kid who reads too much Nietzsche decides to tune out he starts dressing like a peacock and dropping some of that wonderful Sandoz acid. He doesn't go on a kill-crazy rampage. There are other factors at play here 50 years later than the angst and disillusionment we're discussing.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1970 on: May 24, 2018, 06:45:38 PM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.

It's possible that this is why we don't see these kind of incidents in the inner cities that are known for their gangs and violence. Life on the streets is a life of constant frustration and venting. It never bottles up to the point where someone snaps and decides to kill 20 children.
I'm thinking it has to do with the acceptance that much of what they're told is bullshit. I think they learn from experience that they can't have everything they want. There's no entitlement and no disillusionment.

Excellent point.

Offline Stadler

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1971 on: May 25, 2018, 08:46:42 AM »
I can't help but notice that this is an entirely white phenomenon. Not just white shooters, but they seem to happen in predominantly white suburban schools. I'm not entirely sure why that matters, but it does hint to me, even further, that entitlement is going to be a real factor in all of these.

I've said before, and will undoubtedly have to say again, that I believe that once we have a more complete understanding, they will find that there isn't a world of difference between the psychology of the kids that walked into Parkland or Santa Fe and the dude's that flew those planes into the World Trade Center.  Or the dudes that stormed La Bataclan.  It's not at all about "war fetishes" or "gun access".  It's about an undissipated rage and frustration that vents itself - one way or another - like that volcano in Hawai'i.

It's possible that this is why we don't see these kind of incidents in the inner cities that are known for their gangs and violence. Life on the streets is a life of constant frustration and venting. It never bottles up to the point where someone snaps and decides to kill 20 children.
I'm thinking it has to do with the acceptance that much of what they're told is bullshit. I think they learn from experience that they can't have everything they want. There's no entitlement and no disillusionment.

I think there's truth in that.  I don't mean to be flip, but it's hard to be disillusioned if you have no expectations to begin with.  Broad strokes, but still.    Thomas Freidman, in his book "From Beirut To Jerusalem" (and again in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree") posited that much of the hate you see from the native Muslim community is rooted in that; they are told early on that Allah is not a religion but a way of life, and that the tenets of the Koran are not a religious guideline, but a societal law, and from that good things will follow.  Then they see the opulent and vulgar display of wealth and ostentatiousness - Brad Pitt is (to them) jumping the gun a little on his enjoyment of the 72 virgins - from the West, from people that haven't put in the effort or the sacrifice, and it builds resentment and frustration.   I am grossly simplifying, but you can (and should; it's an excellent resource) read the book yourself and dig in a little.
Well, I think we're hitting on why some of these kids go off the reservation and others don't. That doesn't really address why the choose to depart while gunning down classmates, though. This is going to be an off the wall bit of empirical data to throw out, but I've been watching Dragnet reruns at the shop. Jack Webb ruled. In 1967 they're having much of he same conversation we're having here. So-Cal was just as full of disillusioned kids trying to cope way back then. Not only are they realizing that so much of what they've been told is bullshit, they also assume Comrade Dave's team is going to nuke them any minte. Except in 1967 when the kid who reads too much Nietzsche decides to tune out he starts dressing like a peacock and dropping some of that wonderful Sandoz acid. He doesn't go on a kill-crazy rampage. There are other factors at play here 50 years later than the angst and disillusionment we're discussing.

Good point.   Not an argument, just an observation:  even the drugs the kids use today are harder core.   It wasn't my thing, but there was always someone with a tab of dubious provenance, and I had a couple friends with an annoying habit of taking the last finger of liquor from bottles and pouring it into a community bottle, but that was it.  I listen to some of the shit that my daughter's friends are into and man.   I can't imagine that's a pleasant or enjoyable high.   Plus, I'm in Connecticut, within the blast radius of the heavily-fentanyl-laced heroin that comes through Rhode Island; the fentanyl is now finding it's way into other stuff, and we hear almost weekly about kids dying from tainted weed.  You're not supposed to die from fucking weed, bro.   

Plus, I forget if I said it here or elsewhere, but suicide in kids under 15 has tripled in the last 40 years.   We talk about "suicide by cop", we're going to have to start talking about "suicide by school". 

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Re: More shootings...are the media creating more?
« Reply #1972 on: May 31, 2018, 10:57:15 AM »
So they released the parkland shooter's self made videos, made the day before and day of the event. They seem to echo the one thing we all agree on, that they need to give these shooters zero press. He stresses many times in the videos how "you will know my name" and such. Also, the kid sounds 100% off the fucking rails, all his dogs are completely off the leash and running away.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/05/30/parkland-shooting-suspect-detailed-plans-in-videos-im-going-to-be-the-next-school-shooter/
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