Re: Devin Townsend Discography v. 'Cause there is always time...

[WebRaider]

Roughly this is how I feel it went down. If you pay enough attention to Devin's interviews over the last several years it seems somewhat obvious to me that Devin had this idea of carrying out Ziltoid into this next level of realization with a full production/stage show thing cause of his obsession with The Dark Crystal and puppets.

He wanted to see it through to that and he seemed to realize with his growing popularity (which I don't think he's ever expected) that it was possible but he sort of funded that whole thing with the creation of Z2. I don't think he ever really had a well thought out Ziltoid album at that point. He just wanted to get it out so he could bring to fruition the whole Ziltoid stage show thing and it sort of shows.

 Meanwhile, I think his record company sort of was like yeah hey Dev if you could possibly also do some more of that Epicloud type thing while you're being your zany self with the Ziltoid thing. Now, I don't believe for a second that Devy would kowtow to a record company, but I think he probably had some material (or at least ideas) in that vein already available and realized it would help pacify the record company and also boost interest in the whole project. Sky Blue isn't bad but it feels like a continuation of Epicloud in many ways (and for me both pale slightly in comparison to Addicted) and it falls flat given that and added in with the bloat of the poor result of Dark Matters.

[Ultimetalhead]

Roughly this is how I feel it went down. If you pay enough attention to Devin's interviews over the last several years it seems somewhat obvious to me that Devin had this idea of carrying out Ziltoid into this next level of realization with a full production/stage show thing cause of his obsession with The Dark Crystal and puppets.

He wanted to see it through to that and he seemed to realize with his growing popularity (which I don't think he's ever expected) that it was possible but he sort of funded that whole thing with the creation of Z2. I don't think he ever really had a well thought out Ziltoid album at that point. He just wanted to get it out so he could bring to fruition the whole Ziltoid stage show thing and it sort of shows.

 Meanwhile, I think his record company sort of was like yeah hey Dev if you could possibly also do some more of that Epicloud type thing while you're being your zany self with the Ziltoid thing. Now, I don't believe for a second that Devy would kowtow to a record company, but I think he probably had some material (or at least ideas) in that vein already available and realized it would help pacify the record company and also boost interest in the whole project. Sky Blue isn't bad but it feels like a continuation of Epicloud in many ways (and for me both pale slightly in comparison to Addicted) and it falls flat given that and added in with the bloat of the poor result of Dark Matters.

Ah yes. You touched on something I kind of forgot about in the write up. The music and everything regarding the album seems kind of like an afterthought. He may well have seen it as an opportunity to go wild with the puppetry and the multimedia stuff (ZTV, the RAH show) and used the music as the means to the project. Usually projects like that work better when the music comes first, and the pageantry after (see: Retinal Circus).

[KevShmev]

I agree about the Ziltoid sequel. Heck, I don't think the first is that great - it's really good, he has like 10 or so better - but Z2 was a major flop. I like Sky Blue a lot, even if it does have that "been there, done that" vibe.

[jakepriest]

I agree about the Ziltoid sequel. Heck, I don't think the first is that great - it's really good, he has like 10 or so better - but Z2 was a major flop. I like Sky Blue a lot, even if it does have that "been there, done that" vibe.

The first is a top 3 Devin album. And honestly, Z2 isn't half as bad as what you all make it out to be. It's okay for what it is, an over-the-top rock opera. It's nothing like the first Ziltoid, but it doesn't really have to be in order to stand as a sequel.

[KevShmev]

It's not bad; it's just there. Somewhat bland and mostly forgettable.

Sky Blue wouldn't come close to making my top 3. It's the 3rd best in that style, behind Addicted and Epicloud, and it can't touch Terria, Infinity, Ghost, Casualties of Cool or Ocean Machine.

[Mosh]

The downfall of Z2 is how calculated the whole thing was. Sky Blue was created at the request of the record company, although it's still a solid album and probably better reflects the sort of music Devin likes to make now anyway. Dark Matters also seems forced though. I think the fact that it took so long to make, given his known work ethic, should've been a hint that this wasn't something that came out naturally the way albums like Casualties, Epicloud, the first Ziltoid, Ki, etc came about. That's not to say albums that take a long time are automatically no good, but Devin is the kind of artist who works pretty quickly once inspiration hits. I get the impression that there was no inspiration for Dark Matters and he just sort of forced it out. It almost reminds me of the last couple of SYL albums, how they were made almost out of a feeling of obligation.

I have a ton of respect for Dev as an artist and I'm not really trying to hate on him or anything. I get why these albums were made. Dark Matters really seemed like a gift to the fans which makes it kind of sad how lukewarm the reception was and record company influenced albums are pretty unattractive but I get that the DTP is a source of income for a lot of the people involved. Somehow Sky Blue feels like the most genuine of the two anyway. I just hope if Dev pays attention to internet mumblings, he realizes that we like him best when he's doing whatever the fuck he wants. That is what drove so many people to him in the first place.

[Ultimetalhead]

I just hope if Dev pays attention to internet mumblings, he realizes that we like him best when he's doing whatever the fuck he wants. That is what drove so many people to him in the first place.

Nail, head, etc. You only need to compare the reception of Casualties vs. Z² to find that. It's also what caused the original Ziltoid to be a success. No expectation, no compromise, and a creative drive.

[Nihil-Morari]

Yeah I love that part of him too. He feels like a modern day Zappa to me sometimes, but Zappa always did whatever the fuck he wanted, and Devin sometimes compromises, is seems. I'd love him to find a new creative goal, because of course, while it is easy to think 'well just do what you want', that is way harder than it sounds.

[Onno]

I'm not that familiar with how Zappa's career developed, but back then the music industry was a bit healthier for sure. I think most of the compromises Devin makes (I heard him saying in an interview that one of the reasons to continue doing DTP for him was having to pay the other musicians - he can't just take a year off doing some other records now) are related to him wanting to be sure he makes enough money to live and take care of his family.

[Mosh]

I think the major difference between Devin Townsend and Zappa is confidence. Zappa never seemed to second guess what he was doing. Devin comes off as a bit insecure sometimes and has had several well documented identity crises (I believe he's in the middle of another one right now). However usually once he gets over that he ends up putting out some of his best works (Infinity, Terria, the DTP).

The compromising is another big difference, Zappa would've never bent to his record company nor did he feel obligated to any of his bands. If the band wasn't rewarding, financially or artistically, he'd break it up. But Zappa did not have the financial limitations that Devin and his band have, which brings me to this:

I'm not that familiar with how Zappa's career developed, but back then the music industry was a bit healthier for sure. I think most of the compromises Devin makes (I heard him saying in an interview that one of the reasons to continue doing DTP for him was having to pay the other musicians - he can't just take a year off doing some other records now) are related to him wanting to be sure he makes enough money to live and take care of his family.

I wouldn't say it's because the music industry was healthier (I think Zappa definitely wouldn't have thought so) but because Zappa was just lucky enough to have some pretty major commercial success. Sure the majority of his music was as far from mainstream as you can get, but sometimes he played in the mainstream and had several pretty big hits. Most of the people in his bands also had outside record deals or other gigs outside of Zappa's band, or they went on to be even bigger after leaving (Steve Vai), which isn't true for Devin Townsend. Nobody really goes to see Devin to see who's in his band, unless it's Anneke. With Zappa the bands were just as legendary in a lot of cases.

[WebRaider]

And here is a direct answer from Devin about how Z2 went down and how he feels about it!

https://youtu.be/n5x-6Tc1WJg?t=22m18s

[Adami]

And here is a direct answer from Devin about how Z2 went down and how he feels about it!

https://youtu.be/n5x-6Tc1WJg?t=22m18s

God damn I love how honest and authentic he is. I seriously can't imagine many musicians being so frank.

[Mosh]

I find it interesting that the album he had to force out is infinitely better than Dark Matters.

I've been really digging Transcendence lately. Much less contrived than the Z2 thing. You can tell he's more open to input from other band members now because it shows in the music.

Great clip btw, just watched the whole thing.

[seasonsinthesky]

I find it interesting that the album he had to force out is infinitely better than Dark Matters.

Dark Matters IS the one he was pushed into doing by the label. That's why he says in the guitar clinic that he just wanted to do ZTV, no album. Then when he was making the album, he needed to make something accessible too, so he basically had to push out Sky Blue as well. TL;DR: All of Z2 musically was forced in some way, whether it's direct from record label people or Dev himself.

[Mosh]

I'd like to know the timeline on that, because he was working on music for a Ziltoid sequel since before Epicloud. This was before the DTP really became a continuous project the way it is now.

[TioJorge]

Damn, well that's interesting...and makes sense. I don't abhor Z2 (or more specifically, DM; I still love Sky Blue a whole lot) nearly as much as many peeps here, but DM is definitely my least listened to album by the guys and that says enough as it is. I do still love the ever living hell out of March Of The Poozers. But the concept of the story is something I never cared about even with the first album, so that part didn't matter much. But then it's the music itself that does sound very uninspired. It's very clear when someone who is usually so heartfelt and inspired creates something that isn't quite coming from the heart.

[cramx3]

If the album was forced, and I am not arguing that since I watched that clip and he admits to it, then why did he perform the whole album live for RAH?  Seems like performing the first Ziltoid would have made more sense.  Especially since (at least here) it seems the second Ziltoid was not as popular (I agree with this). 

[jakepriest]

If the album was forced, and I am not arguing that since I watched that clip and he admits to it, then why did he perform the whole album live for RAH?  Seems like performing the first Ziltoid would have made more sense.  Especially since (at least here) it seems the second Ziltoid was not as popular (I agree with this).

Because he wanted to promote the new album so it would get sales I guess.
The second setlist that the fans chose was the main selling point of the show to me anyway. (even if it was way too heavy on OM stuff)

[Mosh]

Well I think he wanted to put on a big stage show for it, that much comes across in the video clip. Watching that DVD it's clear that it was more about the overall production than the music.

[Ben_Jamin]

In that video he says he originally just wanted to do a puppet show. And what's closest to a puppet show? A live show.

[jakepriest]

In that video he says he originally just wanted to do a puppet show. And what's closest to a puppet show? A live show.

But he did the puppet show already. I really don't think that's the reason.