New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[theseoafs]

Enjoyed the clip.  As Rumby said, I'm not too enthused with the mix; it's really loud and everything just sort of blends together.  While I can sort of hear the choir and the strings, there's not much clarity, which is important when you have that many musicians playing at the same time. 

Other than the sound, the video was cool.  The cowbell and JP's "bonus lick" during the rocking verse were a good touch.

[El Barto]

I get that the role of the orchestra is supposed to fill in and provide an accompaniment, but their song choices for it elude me. They pick a lot of songs where they're having to shoehorn it into various places, which is the problem almost everybody has doing these sorts of gigs. Metropolis was a fine example of that. Does Dance of Eternity really need orchestral bits? Strange Deja Vous? There were a lot of songs on that setlist where it would have worked well. I haven't heard any of it so for all I know they found a way to make it work, but based on past experience I'm definitely not holding my breath.

Well, it's not as if the Boston setlist was different from the other shows. So, realistically, they wanted to have the real orchestra for IT, and then decided it would look silly if they brought in a whole orchestra for a single song.
Whether DT should have played a different setlist to work better with an orchestra is a different question, but I think these days DT has rather limited flexibility in those things.

Yeah. Ain't that the sad truth.

[BlobVanDam]

I noticed it, but it wasn't excessive at all imo. There was one note I heard it snap incorrectly, but aside from that, it didn't bother me. JLB is sounding great here.

The first "toNIGHT I've been..." is the incorrect note, correct? I noticed that on my first listen. The "to-" and the "-night" should be different, but they are the exact same pitch.

Yeah, right at the 2:00 mark, but it's still in key, so it doesn't sound bad. There's also one note in the intro of TSCO on Score where it snaps a semi-tone higher, which again was still in key and didn't sound bad.
Total nitpicking, of course. JLB sounds better now than he did 15 years ago singing the same song on LSFNY. LALP and from what we've heard so far of BTFW are definitely among his best live releases.

[Kotowboy]

So this is gonna be the best DT Concert movie since Score - which was 2006 ?

Almost 10 years ago ?

[BlobVanDam]

So this is gonna be the best DT Concert movie since Score - which was 2006 ?

Almost 10 years ago ?

Probably, but in that time they've only had two other DVDs, one of which wasn't intended as a dedicated concert DVD in the first place, and so didn't have the money behind the production for filming and sound etc, and another DVD which is still very good, and not far behind what we expect this one will be.

[theanalogkid7]

My body is ready for this release.

I feel the need to elaborate... Score is a good live album, but I always was disappointed in the orchestra itself.  The strings were not in tune, and it just felt a bit more.... awkward?  I'm not sure the word I'm looking for there.  No matter, having seen this newest clip, it really seems like they nailed it.  I kind of think that Rush's use of orchestra (string players, really) on the Clockwork Angel's tour was some of the best use of strings in a rock setting as of late, and I think BTFW could match the level set there.

[Grizz]

I can't say they nailed it. The sound engineers totally butchered the show, so I don't know if even Eren could hear the strings outside The Embracing Circle. I only listened to this with garbage earbuds, but I could hear the loudness (which I kind of liked, actually) and not the strings.

[erwinrafael]

I can hear the strings well. They are playing Rudess' parts.

[RaiseTheKnife]

I can hear the strings well. They are playing Rudess' parts.

Its an orchestra, not just strings.  For instance, can you hear the wind or brass sections?  I'm sure there are many intricacies lost in this mix.   I suspect the arrangement goes WAY beyond just playing Jordan's parts, but I cannot hear those details.   

For instance, can anyone tell me what the orchestra is playing at 2:46 of SDV?  The studio version does not have keyboards during this section, and Jordan appears to be tacit as well, but clearly the orchestra is playing something here.  Can anyone tell me?  Taken out of the mix???

Love the contributions of the choir.  The orchestra needs more separation in the mix. 

[Jinx]

The cowbell... were a good touch.

I thought the cowbell sounded completely out of place, even like ot was a mistake 

[BlobVanDam]

The cowbell... were a good touch.

I thought the cowbell sounded completely out of place, even like ot was a mistake 

It sounded like a mistake to me, or at least out of place, as you said. I don't mind the occasional mistake to remind me that they are in fact human.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Yea definitly a mistake. I think he has a pedal with a cowbell, probably touched that while hitting the pedal next to it given he has many pedals next to eachother.

[aprilethereal]

I can hear the strings well. They are playing Rudess' parts.

Its an orchestra, not just strings.  For instance, can you hear the wind or brass sections? 

In fact, it is just strings.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I can hear the strings well. They are playing Rudess' parts.

Its an orchestra, not just strings.  For instance, can you hear the wind or brass sections? 

In fact, it is just strings.

and woodwinds and timpani. Also spotted a french horn so there's probably a small brass section.

[Xenon]

I can hear the strings well. They are playing Rudess' parts.

Its an orchestra, not just strings.  For instance, can you hear the wind or brass sections? 

In fact, it is just strings.

Pretty sure I'm seeing some woodwinds at the back of the pit.

[cramx3]

Yea, you can see some woodwinds in the back, tough to see though.

I think for everyone complaining about not hearing this or that, havent we learned to wait until the release to judge the sound and not go by youtube? 

I think this mix is pretty good through youtube and I expect to to be better on blu-ray.  I dont expect any complaints from myself.


And that cowbell really is a mistake?  It sounds like it almost kind of works in that spot.  I find it weird that they would leave a mistake that noticeable in.

[aprilethereal]

Whoops, I remember them promoting it as "string section and choir", so I assumed that was everything.

[hefdaddy42]

The cowbell... were a good touch.

I thought the cowbell sounded completely out of place, even like ot was a mistake 

Cowbell is never a mistake.

[Zydar]

We need more cowbell in our lives.

[The Stray Seed]

The cowbell... were a good touch.

I thought the cowbell sounded completely out of place, even like ot was a mistake 

Cowbell is never a mistake.

 

[bl5150]

[hefdaddy42]

I'm tellin' ya, you're gonna want that cowbell.

[kirksnosehair]

Enjoyed the clip.  As Rumby said, I'm not too enthused with the mix; it's really loud and everything just sort of blends together.  While I can sort of hear the choir and the strings, there's not much clarity, which is important when you have that many musicians playing at the same time. 

Other than the sound, the video was cool.  The cowbell and JP's "bonus lick" during the rocking verse were a good touch.

I was there for the performance.  Just behind and to the right of the center camera.  If you think this video sounds all mashed together, you should have heard the actual concert.   Dream Theater have been way, way too loud in their live performances for quite a few tours in a row now.  At least here in Boston, at the venues I've seen them in -The Orpheum Theater and The Boston Opera House.  The Orpheum is a shit hole.  And Dream Theater have outgrown it.  Their sound, particularly the volume, is overwhelming at the Orpheum.  The Boston Opera House is a much nicer venue overall, but the acoustics there are less than ideal for the kind of music Dream Theater plays.  It sounded slightly better than the Orpheum, but I think someone in Dream Theater's crew equates volume with quality, because the last couple of times I've seen them they've been way too fucking loud.  Even with ear plugs. 

[rumborak]

That whole "is it loud? Yeah? Well, metal is supposed to be loud" thing by JLB was unintentionally ill-placed, yeah.
DT really needs to switch their standard venue.

[TAC]

This was a fucking LOUD show, and it's not cuz I'm a Fogey. It was loud!!

[Sycsa]

I think someone in Dream Theater's crew equates volume with quality, because the last couple of times I've seen them they've been way too fucking loud.  Even with ear plugs.

That's interesting, because I've seen them this year in a relatively big outdoors venue and it wasn't loud at all. In fact, it was the quietest outdoors metal concert I've ever been at (that's not a complaint though, it sounded great). I was standing in the 4th row middle and could talk to my friend without shouting in his ear. After the show I didn't even have tinnitus and I get it after playing drums without plugs for 1-2 hours. The usual summer metal fest makes my ears ring for 1-2 days. That said, it still could have been too loud for an indoor venue, but I don't think they blindly and dogmatically follow the "louder is better" principle.

[Nick]

That whole "is it loud? Yeah? Well, metal is supposed to be loud" thing by JLB was unintentionally ill-placed, yeah.
DT really needs to switch their standard venue.

That entire mentality is a problem for Dream Theater, and a problem for any band.

The proper mentality for metal should be, "we should make it as loud as we can while still sounding good". Far too many bands don't seem to care too much about the second half of that.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think you guys are taking JLB's comment way too seriously. JLB sucks at on-stage banter, and he's even said it himself. I really doubt he meant any harm upon saying "is it loud? yeah, rock's supposed to be loud!" comment. That's probably a "are you having a good time?" in his world. Rock concerts are loud, have always been loud, and will always be loud.

The audio-process-loudness is a whole other story. Although this release is as loud as everything that DT has put out since some good years, it doesn't sound muddy or bad to me. It packs a real good punch, so that's good enough for me.

[El Barto]

That whole "is it loud? Yeah? Well, metal is supposed to be loud" thing by JLB was unintentionally ill-placed, yeah.
DT really needs to switch their standard venue.

That entire mentality is a problem for Dream Theater, and a problem for any band.

The proper mentality for metal should be, "we should make it as loud as we can while still sounding good". Far too many bands don't seem to care too much about the second half of that.

I'm fine with this, but I don't think DT is past that point. Their problem is internal. I've heard bands play every bit as loud as DT and sound fantastic.

[rumborak]

I think you guys are taking JLB's comment way too seriously. JLB sucks at on-stage banter, and he's even said it himself. I really doubt he meant any harm upon saying "is it loud? yeah, rock's supposed to be loud!" comment. That's probably a "are you having a good time?" in his world. Rock concerts are loud, have always been loud, and will always be loud.

You may have misunderstood my comment. Obviously JLB's comment was meant in a "are you having a good time?!" kind of vibe. I'm just saying that it was unfortunate to ask that question in a concert that was, to the audience, way too loud to still be enjoyed.

[adamack]

I think people miss the the point of the orchestra.

Playing with an orchestra at a live show is not necessarily to have the orchestra assume any kind of lead role. It is rather an accompanying section to add environment and size.

The whole environment and ambiance that the orchestra adds to the mix makes the performance sound MUCH bigger.

Just because individual string melody lines may not be able to be picked out audibly does not mean that the orchestra is too low in the mix.

I guarantee that if someone were to totally mute the orchestra from this mix, you would be left with a much smaller sounding performance.

In other words, the orchestra is doing a LOT more than you think to the overall sound.

While this is perfectly sensible in principle, if that's all they were going for then they don't need an orchestra and choir, because Jordan can do all of that.

I also found both far too low in the mix in that song, except in one section about half way through or slightly later (can't remember exactly) when suddenly the strings became much more prominent, and then I thought it worked great.

I agree that Jordan can certainly add beautiful orchestral environment with his keyboard presets, but the overall dimension and saturation that a real orchestra adds to a live setting is untouchable when compared with a synthetic instrument.

Also, having the orchestra lets Jordan focus 100% on his parts, while the orchestra adds an entirely new dimension in the mix.

I wouldn't mind the orchestra being more prominent as well, but there is no substitute for having an entire orchestra added to a live setting.

[Madman Shepherd]

Anybody else order through RR and get shipping info?  I did and I don't know if that means it will take 13 days to get here or if I'm getting it earlier but either way that is sort of odd. 

[RaiseTheKnife]

My automatic reply from RR said that shipping would take 7 - 10 days.  I placed the order last week, and hopefully I'll get the shipping confirmation email sometime next week.  That's my expectation anyway.

[Grizz]

I think you guys are taking JLB's comment way too seriously. JLB sucks at on-stage banter, and he's even said it himself. I really doubt he meant any harm upon saying "is it loud? yeah, rock's supposed to be loud!" comment. That's probably a "are you having a good time?" in his world. Rock concerts are loud, have always been loud, and will always be loud.

You may have misunderstood my comment. Obviously JLB's comment was meant in a "are you having a good time?!" kind of vibe. I'm just saying that it was unfortunate to ask that question in a concert that was, to the audience, way too loud to still be enjoyed.

As I've said before, my Dad was at a 2003 DT/QR show that was allegedly far louder than Boston. Boston had several sound issues though, not just volume. The frequency was awkward so the mids were absurdly loud. There was clipping in the sound system (for some reason). The mix had way too much guitar and too little of anything else.

I thought that 2010 Worcester was loud but at that show I was close to the stage. Naturally I can't remember it at all :/ .

[Nick]

I think you guys are taking JLB's comment way too seriously. JLB sucks at on-stage banter, and he's even said it himself. I really doubt he meant any harm upon saying "is it loud? yeah, rock's supposed to be loud!" comment. That's probably a "are you having a good time?" in his world. Rock concerts are loud, have always been loud, and will always be loud.

You may have misunderstood my comment. Obviously JLB's comment was meant in a "are you having a good time?!" kind of vibe. I'm just saying that it was unfortunate to ask that question in a concert that was, to the audience, way too loud to still be enjoyed.

As I've said before, my Dad was at a 2003 DT/QR show that was allegedly far louder than Boston. Boston had several sound issues though, not just volume. The frequency was awkward so the mids were absurdly loud. There was clipping in the sound system (for some reason). The mix had way too much guitar and too little of anything else.

I thought that 2010 Worcester was loud but at that show I was close to the stage. Naturally I can't remember it at all :/ .

Of the sound issues, too much guitar was absolutely the biggest problem.

In Philly JPs guitar rig had a hiccup during I believe Scarred. Point being is it brought his volume down and it was MUCH better from there on out.