Author Topic: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."  (Read 47775 times)

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Offline TAC

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #105 on: May 15, 2014, 06:06:32 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

I personally have never done it. Don't really care for 3/5 of it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2014, 06:13:48 PM »
Side question: is Mike Mangini capable of composing a piece like that?

I don't see why he couldn't, disregarding of course the fact that he probably would not want to.
I think people sometimes like to elevate the 12SS to this glorious magnum opus of Mike Portnoy, as if the whole thing was this grandiose thing that is the epitome of his artistic work. To qquote The Man himself: "Upon finishing the Suite in 2009, he reflected that he had "dug [himself] into a hole with it. It was a nice idea seven years ago... After a while it became like an obligation hanging over my head, like a homework assignment." He said that he "didn't know if [he] would have done it" if he knew how big the Suite was going to be: "If I had realized what I was getting myself into five albums ago... I think maybe I would have written one song that encompassed all twelve steps"

While there are good parts to the 12SS, it is so massively bloated and forcefully self-referential that I have no desire to see it live in its entirety.

Same here.  I still think it is cool when one new song that is self referential comes out once every two years but to hear them all back to back for 50 something minutes is a bit of a drag. 

On the flip side we do get to hear a grown man growl/yell "COURTESY!!!"  which is funny. 

Offline theseoafs

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2014, 07:08:31 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

If you enjoy all the individual pieces, I see no reason why you wouldn't like the suite.  Having said that, most people here seem to have one or more songs they don't care for as much.

Offline Sir Walrus Cauliflower

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2014, 07:22:27 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

I have, actually. I found I liked Repentance more in the context of the suite. It's a nice little break from heavier songwriting (TGP, TDS, TROAE) and bridges the gap between the first 3 songs and TSF's summary of the suite nicely. I'd say it actrually works pretty well.
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Offline Anguyen92

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2014, 08:51:04 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

Well, I'm going to listen to it now and, after an hour, I'll see if it works or not.

Offline RaiseTheKnife

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2014, 09:21:52 PM »
I can only profess that hearing TGP followed by TDS live was mind stomping awesome (Anaheim 2006).  Simply put, the reprising riffs have far more impact.  I say this as someone who is not particualrly fond of TDS.  When coupled with TGS in live setting, its a whole new monster.

Following that live experiece I created a AA Suite playlist to listen to the whole thing.  Regardless of what you think of each song individually, I'm willing to bet that hearing it all the way through would be a transformative experience.  Too bad that seems highly unlikely now.

Offline Tis BOOLsheet

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2014, 09:24:54 PM »
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-weighs-in-on-queensryche-settlement-calls-it-the-right-outcome/

What about the fans MP that followed you and DT throughout this suite? Did you think of htem before making such a statement? However... your thoughts?

Maybe so, but it belongs to DT and not exclusively to MP. Furthermore none of that music would have been possible without the band.

(Responding to the thread title)

Offline Anguyen92

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2014, 09:36:20 PM »
All right, I'm on the final song.  I say as a whole, it works, but, man, there's a lot to take in.  Repentance and The Root of All Evil was pretty good, the two songs before it?  Not really my cup of tea.  The Shattered Fortress is off to a decent start, backup vocals otherwise.

I'm not too beat about it if they would never play it in its entirety, though.

Offline jammindude

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2014, 09:38:13 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

Well, I'm going to listen to it now and, after an hour, I'll see if it works or not.

I actually have a mix that crossfades the entire thing into a single piece. It's also got The Mirror at the beginning (which I've mixed with the ending of Lie, so it comes out exactly like the LSFNY version)

It's one of my favorite DT discs.  :tup
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2014, 09:48:56 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

Of course it does. How would it not be a suite? It actually works a lot better as a whole suite than you'd think. It's just as cohesive as say AMBI.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2014, 06:20:13 AM »
Yeah, it works.  But man, it's a lot.  I am not normally in the mood for something like that.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2014, 06:50:38 AM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

Of course it does. How would it not be a suite? It actually works a lot better as a whole suite than you'd think. It's just as cohesive as say AMBI.

It definitely works better than A Change Of Seasons.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2014, 07:04:02 AM »
Not in any way, shape, or form.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2014, 07:38:46 AM »
Yeah, I don't get that either  ???

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2014, 08:00:14 AM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?
Of course it does. How would it not be a suite? It actually works a lot better as a whole suite than you'd think. It's just as cohesive as say AMBI.
It definitely works better than A Change Of Seasons.
lol

Offline Zook

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2014, 09:34:09 AM »
It could only be completely his if he wrote the music too. Nice try, Geoff.

Offline bosk1

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2014, 11:07:18 AM »
Side question: is Mike Mangini capable of composing a piece like that?

I don't see why he couldn't, disregarding of course the fact that he probably would not want to.
I think people sometimes like to elevate the 12SS to this glorious magnum opus of Mike Portnoy, as if the whole thing was this grandiose thing that is the epitome of his artistic work. To qquote The Man himself: "Upon finishing the Suite in 2009, he reflected that he had "dug [himself] into a hole with it. It was a nice idea seven years ago... After a while it became like an obligation hanging over my head, like a homework assignment." He said that he "didn't know if [he] would have done it" if he knew how big the Suite was going to be: "If I had realized what I was getting myself into five albums ago... I think maybe I would have written one song that encompassed all twelve steps"

While there are good parts to the 12SS, it is so massively bloated and forcefully self-referential that I have no desire to see it live in its entirety.

Excellent post, every word of it.  I actually like it as a whole piece, but similarly to how Mike felt about composing it, it does just get very cumbersome as it grinds on.  I like most of the songs that compose it, but even to take The Glass Prison as an example, I LOVE that song, but it still suffers by having a few parts that wear on for just a bit too long.  To me, that is amplified in other songs later in the suite.  I think the whole thing could have been a bit better if Mike and the guys had realized early on that it would benefit from making some of the parts more concise and focused, and not worrying as much at the end about reprising everything that had come before.  But c'est la vie. 

Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

I have, actually. I found I liked Repentance more in the context of the suite. It's a nice little break from heavier songwriting (TGP, TDS, TROAE) and bridges the gap between the first 3 songs and TSF's summary of the suite nicely. I'd say it actrually works pretty well.

Same here.  But for the reasons mentioned above, I am like most others in that I rarely listen to the whole thing. 
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2014, 11:34:47 AM »
"the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."  Yeah, he said that about DT too.  I would say mostly his concept but not completely.  Lyrically, yeah 100% but he couldn't have done it without the artistic contributions from the others.  So, I have a problem when he says "completely".

I have the entire suite on 1 CD.  Also, have a 12SS playlist but haven't listened to it in it's entirety for quite some time.  TBH, the whole thing got rather old.  The only reason I'd go back and listen to it straight through is for old times sake.

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Offline rumborak

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2014, 11:55:30 AM »
Excellent post, every word of it.  I actually like it as a whole piece, but similarly to how Mike felt about composing it, it does just get very cumbersome as it grinds on.  I like most of the songs that compose it, but even to take The Glass Prison as an example, I LOVE that song, but it still suffers by having a few parts that wear on for just a bit too long.  To me, that is amplified in other songs later in the suite.  I think the whole thing could have been a bit better if Mike and the guys had realized early on that it would benefit from making some of the parts more concise and focused, and not worrying as much at the end about reprising everything that had come before.  But c'est la vie. 

I think had MP stuck around, what they could have done is to spend some time on all the songs, and then maybe create an "abridged 12SS" that maybe only focuses on the unique and "salient" parts of each song. So, e.g. heavily cut down the stretched end part of TGP, cut down the "aaah" part of TSF etc. I think frankly, you could bring it down to 30 minutes, and you would have an epic of density and awesomeness to the level of ACOS.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2014, 03:20:12 PM »
Yeah, that makes sense and might have worked.  I just went back and checked it out on my playlist (for old times sake).  I like the songs individually rather than strung together.  Although, the abrupt transition between the end of TGP and beginning of TDS is kinda cool.  Still, I go back and listen to ACOS and it's just flatout awesome.  12SS really doesn't even come close.  If MP wants to be really proud of something, ACOS should've been it.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2014, 04:37:46 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

Of course it does. How would it not be a suite? It actually works a lot better as a whole suite than you'd think. It's just as cohesive as say AMBI.

Of course? It's a set of songs written in five separate song writing sessions instead of together. Sure they share some variations on riffs and the same general theme but just by picturing them individually in my head I can't imagine them really flowing together except for maybe TGP and TDS.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2014, 05:02:41 PM »
I'm interested in how they wouldve transitioned TDS-> TROAE and so on. It sounds quite odd with them being differently produced and mixed, so I bet it would have sounded better live.
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Offline TAC

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2014, 05:10:39 PM »
Excellent post, every word of it.  I actually like it as a whole piece, but similarly to how Mike felt about composing it, it does just get very cumbersome as it grinds on.  I like most of the songs that compose it, but even to take The Glass Prison as an example, I LOVE that song, but it still suffers by having a few parts that wear on for just a bit too long.  To me, that is amplified in other songs later in the suite.  I think the whole thing could have been a bit better if Mike and the guys had realized early on that it would benefit from making some of the parts more concise and focused, and not worrying as much at the end about reprising everything that had come before.  But c'est la vie. 

I think had MP stuck around, what they could have done is to spend some time on all the songs, and then maybe create an "abridged 12SS" that maybe only focuses on the unique and "salient" parts of each song. So, e.g. heavily cut down the stretched end part of TGP, cut down the "aaah" part of TSF etc. I think frankly, you could bring it down to 30 minutes, and you would have an epic of density and awesomeness to the level of ACOS.

That's an interesting thought.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2014, 05:38:17 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?
Of course it does. How would it not be a suite? It actually works a lot better as a whole suite than you'd think. It's just as cohesive as say AMBI.
It definitely works better than A Change Of Seasons.
lol

LOL

Offline orcus116

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2014, 05:56:38 PM »
I'm interested in how they wouldve transitioned TDS-> TROAE and so on. It sounds quite odd with them being differently produced and mixed, so I bet it would have sounded better live.

Live gives you the ability to segway a little more fluidly.

Offline Grizz

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2014, 07:10:03 PM »
Yeah, that makes sense and might have worked.  I just went back and checked it out on my playlist (for old times sake).  I like the songs individually rather than strung together.  Although, the abrupt transition between the end of TGP and beginning of TDS is kinda cool.  Still, I go back and listen to ACOS and it's just flatout awesome.  12SS really doesn't even come close.  If MP wants to be really proud of something, ACOS should've been it.
I think that ACoS had more input from the others than 12SS though.
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Offline As I Am

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2014, 09:39:06 PM »
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-weighs-in-on-queensryche-settlement-calls-it-the-right-outcome/

What about the fans MP that followed you and DT throughout this suite? Did you think of htem before making such a statement? However... your thoughts?

As always, MP makes perfect sense. I could totally see it being heartbreaking if DT did the 12SS without him, but honestly, I think DT has too much character to do that anyway.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2014, 10:27:44 PM »
Has anyone actually listened to the songs in a row? Do they even work as a cohesive set of songs that you could call a suite?

Of course it does. How would it not be a suite? It actually works a lot better as a whole suite than you'd think. It's just as cohesive as say AMBI.

Of course? It's a set of songs written in five separate song writing sessions instead of together. Sure they share some variations on riffs and the same general theme but just by picturing them individually in my head I can't imagine them really flowing together except for maybe TGP and TDS.

Have you ever actually listened to them together to even judge it as a whole? It works well.
AMBI is on the same album, and that doesn't even flow very well as a suite. It literally just cuts off on Voices and starts TSM, despite sharing the musical ideas throughout.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2014, 10:33:41 PM »
I have actually listened to it once, but the transitions weren't the problem. It's that it drags too much, and the self-references are cool when you haven't heard the reference in a long time, but when the thing just happened 3 minutes earlier, it gets old.
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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2014, 10:39:39 PM »
It wouldn't be much of a suite if there was nothing to musically tie it together. ???
The only time the reusing of musical themes becomes at all a problem for me is TSF, which does just feel like a medley, rather than just using the same musical themes, but even that surprisingly works better than expected as a whole. Still a very flawed song/section though.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 10:48:01 PM by BlobVanDam »
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2014, 11:34:10 PM »
I wonder what the transition from TDS to TROAE would've been like live. I remember hearing a fan remix where the ending of TDS goes straight into the main riff of TROAE and that might've been a good transition, but the songs are in different tunings so JP would've had to switch guitars between the songs.

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2014, 11:38:36 PM »
I wonder what the transition from TDS to TROAE would've been like live. I remember hearing a fan remix where the ending of TDS goes straight into the main riff of TROAE and that might've been a good transition, but the songs are in different tunings so JP would've had to switch guitars between the songs.

I always believed the intro would have remained intact as time for JP to switch guitars. I think that was probably planned that way.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline robwebster

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2014, 05:26:12 AM »
I have actually listened to it once, but the transitions weren't the problem. It's that it drags too much, and the self-references are cool when you haven't heard the reference in a long time, but when the thing just happened 3 minutes earlier, it gets old.
Ahhh, if it's good enough for Awake and Scenes from a Memory! Self-references used to be DT's golf - Space-Dye Vest isn't far from the Mirror quote, and The Mirror reprise itself comes only about three minutes after the original song ended.

I think the only issue with playing it live would be the intensity - and even then, it's just The Glass Prison and This Dying Soul sitting back to back. It's currently structured a bit like...

1. Heavy
2. Heavy
3. Rock
4. Brooding
5. Heavy

Switch that to...

1. Heavy
2. Psychedelic
3. Rock
4. Brooding
5. Heavy

And it's a bit more diverse - but was never going to happen, not with Six Degrees and Train of Thought back to back! This Dying Soul's got a few psychedelic elements, that chorus is lush. Even now, though, I don't think it'd take much to sustain an audience's interest. If they can make their visual show as strong as it has been on this tour, if they can really tell a story musically and visually, I see no reason the Twelve Step Suite wouldn't be absolutely stellar in a live environment. Always used to sit on the side of, "That's... quite a long suite," but on the heels of this tour I think they could, and would want to, do it justice.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2014, 06:21:42 AM »
I like all 5 songs (some more than others), but I think that bloating is a problem common to 4 of the 5.  TROAE feels about right, but all of the others are just too long, so sitting through the whole thing would be a chore for me.

But I would be absolutely shocked if the current lineup ever played the entire suite in one sitting.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: MP new interview "the 12 SS is completely my concept and my baby..."
« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2014, 11:11:09 AM »


As always, MP makes perfect sense. I could totally see it being heartbreaking if DT did the 12SS without him, but honestly, I think DT has too much character to do that anyway.

Too much character but more than that, practically zero interest I suspect...