Author Topic: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary  (Read 26298 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #175 on: April 22, 2014, 12:12:45 AM »
Oh, so they should cater to your personal tastes? ;)

I never said that. As I said, all but 4 songs in the setlist are covered by only 3 albums, and 2 of those remaining songs are songs that were played heavily on just the last tour. With how much they're not covering, chances are a lot of fans are missing out on at least some favourites.
They also have to consider that not every fan has been able to see a show of every setlist from every tour, so the fact they played a song off an album a couple of tours ago shouldn't be any deterrent to play a song off the album again. Believe me, I'm certainly not complaining about them giving a rest to something like TSCO or WIMH/TTTSTA. :lol

As I said, a little more balance is all I'd like to have seen. The current setlist is an extreme, and restricted, regardless of what the few albums covered are. Even if those were all albums I loved, that wouldn't make it any more well balanced a setlist, just one I'd personally prefer, just as the inclusion of a huge chunk of Awake makes it one you personally prefer.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #176 on: April 22, 2014, 01:25:20 AM »
The "Oh, so they should cater to your personal tastes?" line was meant for adastra, whose post was after yours and right before mine.  I didn't quote it cause I thought it would be obvious who I was talking to. :lol :facepalm:

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #177 on: April 22, 2014, 01:28:22 AM »
The "Oh, so they should cater to your personal tastes?" line was meant for adastra, whose post was after yours and right before mine.  I didn't quote it cause I thought it would be obvious who I was talking to. :lol :facepalm:

But......... but.......... my bad. :lol
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #178 on: April 22, 2014, 08:35:39 AM »
Oddly, even though I like DT12 a lot, and feel like the band does as well, I have a feeling that most of the songs won't make it to the next tour:


I do think that the three songs that they did NOT play this time around, have a lot of "average tour" potential. The Looking Glass, Behind The Veil and Surrender To Reason all seem like they'd be great candidates for any setlist. And The Looking Glass especially, has become a fan favorite.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #179 on: April 22, 2014, 09:07:02 AM »
10+ years is a long time between playing songs though. Should albums just get shelved for a decade after their first tour? Not everyone has been a fan for that long, or was able to see those tours the first time around.

I think this tour has been pretty kickass in that light, actually.  I've only been a fan since the Score era or thereabouts, and I would've been too young to properly experience the SFAM tour anyway.  The mini-sets are especially tremendous for recent fans because they give a taste of tours recent fans wouldn't have been able to see.  And DT have been pretty good about varying which songs they play from tour to tour, which means other albums will get their time in the sun.

I still wouldn't want to bet either way on whether they'll be changing the setlist later in the tour. I would take a guess not, in which case they're sure to include something next tour. Hopefully STR.

Yeah, crossing my fingers for that too.

Offline robwebster

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #180 on: April 22, 2014, 11:38:36 AM »
I think there's also the reality that there's a good percentage of fans showing up at their concerts who go there to hear the old tunes. Happened to Rush, happened to just about every artist that's been around for more than 15 years. Hell, to be perfectly honest with you, that's why I saw them in Boston.
So, if they want to keep filling the venues, they have to plug the albums of their heyday.
Nonsense! DT are a band that's still growing. The most important thing is what's happening right now - hence the self title!

Besides, they're playing loads of stuff off Awake, which bombed on release, and nothing from Images and Words, which genuinely is a huge legacy album. They're probing the obscure stuff, it's pretty much the polar opposite of a greatest hits tour.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #181 on: April 22, 2014, 11:51:52 AM »
I think there's also the reality that there's a good percentage of fans showing up at their concerts who go there to hear the old tunes. Happened to Rush, happened to just about every artist that's been around for more than 15 years. Hell, to be perfectly honest with you, that's why I saw them in Boston.
So, if they want to keep filling the venues, they have to plug the albums of their heyday.
Nonsense! DT are a band that's still growing. The most important thing is what's happening right now - hence the self title!

Besides, they're playing loads of stuff off Awake, which bombed on release, and nothing from Images and Words, which genuinely is a huge legacy album. They're probing the obscure stuff, it's pretty much the polar opposite of a greatest hits tour.

All this.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #182 on: April 22, 2014, 11:55:04 AM »
I don't think DT could really have a "greatest hits" kind of format. They're not really the kind of band that attracts casual fans, and besides, I don't think they really have any greatest hits, other than Pull Me Under.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #183 on: April 22, 2014, 12:06:33 PM »
I don't think DT could really have a "greatest hits" kind of format. They're not really the kind of band that attracts casual fans, and besides, I don't think they really have any greatest hits, other than Pull Me Under.

Yeah, but they have at least 21 other pretty cool songs.
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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #184 on: April 22, 2014, 12:09:22 PM »
:icy:

Offline rumborak

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #185 on: April 22, 2014, 12:12:22 PM »
Besides, they're playing loads of stuff off Awake, which bombed on release, and nothing from Images and Words, which genuinely is a huge legacy album. They're probing the obscure stuff, it's pretty much the polar opposite of a greatest hits tour.

Wot?

Quote
Awake peaked at 32 on the Billboard 200, remaining in the charts for six weeks. This would remain the band's highest-charting release in the US until Systematic Chaos in 2007.[1] The album peaked in the top 20 in four countries
(from here)

I can only speak for the Boston gig, but the amount of cheers was clearly, SFAM -> Awake -> newer material.
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Offline robwebster

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #186 on: April 22, 2014, 12:14:44 PM »
I don't think DT could really have a "greatest hits" kind of format. They're not really the kind of band that attracts casual fans, and besides, I don't think they really have any greatest hits, other than Pull Me Under.
It's been done - they're not everyone's favourite band. They're well known in metal circles, so a lot of metalheads have surface knowledge of them; might like them but not feel compelled to catch up with everything.

That said, they can and have done greatest hits setlists. When they rotated setlists, they'd set about playing all their signature tracks in new territories. Mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, but I was at the Newport Centre in 2007 - they were saying how it was a decade since they'd last been to Wales. I think they thought it was some distant foreign country, and I also think that was reflected in the set:

1. Constant Motion
2. Panic Attack
3. Endless Sacrifice
4. Surrounded
5. The Dark Eternal Night
6. As I Am
7. I Walk Beside You
8. The Spirit Carries On
9. In the Presence of Enemies

https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dream-theater/2007/newport-centre-newport-wales-23d6d0d7.html

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #187 on: April 22, 2014, 12:15:21 PM »
If DT were gonna do a greatest hits-type tour, it'd probably look something like this:

Set 1
Pull Me Under
I Walk Beside You
The Dark Eternal Night
On the Backs of Angels
Home
The Looking Glass
As I Am
The Spirit Carries On
Take the Time

Set 2
The Glass Prison
Forsaken
Another Day
Solitary Shell
Peruvian Skies
Octavarium / A Change of Seasons (rotated)

Encore
Metropolis / Learning to Live (rotated)

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #188 on: April 22, 2014, 12:31:46 PM »
What they did last tour, while I wouldn't say it was the "Greatest Hits" setlist, but aside from ADTOE, it was a "sample a little bit from every album" setlist, and many of those songs were fan favorites. Songs like Ytse Jam, Caught In A Web, LTL, TSCO, etc. So that was a great setlist for anyone who's never seen DT before. That doesn't mean they have to include those songs on every tour, just because they're more popular.

Frankly, while I doubt this will happen, I'm hoping they'll retire Pull Me Under for a couple of tours all together. If they decided to stop writing for a while, and let's say dedicated a couple of years to just touring on and off, without necessarily promoting any new material, personally, I'd like to see more obscure stuff resurface.
I'm hoping in 2017 they'll do a FII anniversary setlist, and include songs like YNM (or even YOM), TAMP, LITS and Anna Lee.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #189 on: April 22, 2014, 01:04:48 PM »
I'm hoping in 2017 they'll do a FII anniversary setlist, and include songs like YNM (or even YOM)

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #190 on: April 22, 2014, 01:06:35 PM »
I'm hoping in 2017 they'll do a FII anniversary setlist, and include songs like YNM (or even YOM)

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Considering they played Space-Dye Vest for the first time ever this tour, I would say anything is possible.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2014, 01:08:29 PM »
Looking at things realistically, and taking into account what DT's history with that song has been, I wouldn't.

Offline robwebster

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #192 on: April 22, 2014, 01:20:33 PM »
JP liked it! He was in favour of the FII meddling, it challenged him to try a whole load of different things.

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #193 on: April 22, 2014, 01:22:17 PM »
JP liked it! He was in favour of the FII meddling, it challenged him to try a whole load of different things.

Exactly. As I recall, MP was the only one who had to be dragged into the whole thing kicking and screaming.
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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #194 on: April 22, 2014, 01:23:06 PM »
I'm not sure a lot of fans are dying to hear YNM live :lol

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #195 on: April 22, 2014, 01:28:54 PM »
I'm not sure a lot of fans are dying to hear YNM live :lol

Maybe not a lot of DTFers, but you never know. I don't exactly hear a lot of praise for Lie, TSF, or TDEN, those still got played. I'd love to hear YNM live. I can imagine them doing something snazzy with it, maybe adding an extended instrumental breakdown or something of the sort.

That, and I want them to play it specifically to troll KevShmev.  :biggrin:
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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #196 on: April 22, 2014, 01:46:45 PM »
I'm not sure a lot of fans are dying to hear YNM live :lol
I'm not, but it might become one of those songs that become better liked once they're seen live. Or the crowd might "boo" them to death, anything can happen, so I'll definetely hope that they play it only to see the reactions. :lol

And if they do something for FII, I hope they have some consideration for the B Sides, and not just Raise The Knife. I still wouldn't hold my breath for that, unfortunately. :( Still hope Six Degrees resurfaces, James is in a shape to make Blind Faith shine like it's supposed to!

On the setlist matter, I'm on Blob side and Awake is my favorite album, but I think as an experiment for this tour is a great idea, the good thing about DT is that if you don't like this show you don't have to wait that much before they tour again. I do hope they don't start doing this every tour from now on.

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #197 on: April 22, 2014, 01:49:54 PM »
I'm not sure a lot of fans are dying to hear YNM live :lol

Yeah.

Let's say the band flat-out loves You Not Me, which would surprise me but isn't strictly impossible, I guess.  The thing is that DT doesn't just play shows for their own sake -- they're cognizant of the various things they need to accomplish crafting a setlist.  To oversimplify, suppose you could split the songs DT typically plays into three groups:

1) Super-popular songs.  These are the ones everyone at a DT show knows, probably because of media exposure of some kind, and most attendees like or love the song.  The crowd response is usually enormously positive here.  These songs are often recent, but not always.  I'd throw Pull Me Under, Metropolis, the fan favorites from SFAM, Constant Motion, the Dark Eternal Night, and to a lesser extent OTBOA, The Enemy Inside, and The Looking Glass in this bucket.

2) Popular songs.  You have to be a more devoted fan to know these, but they're well-liked if you have exposure to the band outside of Guitar Hero.  Probably put the Count of Tuscany here.  Maybe Surrounded.  Breaking All Illusions.  Trial of Tears.  Maybe, uh, Blind Faith or the Glass Prison or something.  I don't know.  Crowd reaction to these should be more restrained but still positive.

3) Less popular songs.  An interesting group:  for a number of reasons (including limited familiarity among the audience with the song), crowd reaction is minimal.  The first one that comes to mind here is Scarred, which was dropped from the CiM tour because the crowd would lose interest during the song -- no fault of Scarred's, because it's an excellent song, but it's sort of long and complex and goes in a lot of different directions very quickly, and so you're not likely to get into it if you're a casual fan hearing it for the first time.  Maybe New Millennium should go here, along with a few of the more obscure songs from FII.  Raise the Knife probably goes here for obvious reasons.

Maybe you don't agree with this grouping but it seems at least slightly accurate to me (though the divisions between the three groups are somewhat blurry).  Anyway, there's a place in the setlist for all of these kinds of songs, but where I'm going with this is that You Not Me doesn't belong in any of these groups.  It's a song that a lot of DT fans aren't familiar with, and it's probably not entirely unfair to say that the majority of DT fans who know the song don't like it very much.  It's not considered a hidden gem.  It's not adored by a significant portion of the fanbase.  It's usually only mentioned as a joke or as an example of the influence the studio had over the album's songwriting.  There's no one clamoring for its return live (unlike, say, Space Dye Vest had).  Playing You Not Me just wouldn't make any sense.  It's not a crowd-pleaser.  It's not well-liked.  What would be the point?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 01:58:29 PM by theseoafs »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #198 on: April 22, 2014, 01:55:10 PM »
I'm not sure a lot of fans are dying to hear YNM live :lol

Maybe not a lot of DTFers, but you never know. I don't exactly hear a lot of praise for Lie, TSF, or TDEN, those still got played. I'd love to hear YNM live. I can imagine them doing something snazzy with it, maybe adding an extended instrumental breakdown or something of the sort.

That, and I want them to play it specifically to troll KevShmev.  :biggrin:

Actually, they'd be trolling themselves, since half of the crowd would running for the men's room or the beer stand, and the other half would be sitting there with bewildered looks on their faces, wondering why the band is playing such a song at a live show.  :lol :lol

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #199 on: April 22, 2014, 02:04:00 PM »
*snip*
You hit the nail on the head :clap:

Most casual fans don't know YNM, and very few of the diehards consider it a great song, so there's no point in playing it. I mean, I don't think it's a horrible song and I wouldn't mind if they did play it, but I'm sure they're aware of - or at least can guess - the status it has among the fans.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #200 on: April 22, 2014, 02:05:45 PM »
Most casual fans don't know YNM, and very few of the diehards consider it a great song, so there's no point in playing it. I mean, I don't think it's a horrible song and I wouldn't mind if they did play it, but I'm sure they're aware of - or at least can guess - the status it has among the fans.

I can't think of very many die hards who consider Lie a great song either, they still played it.

And again, this has been proven time and again, the general consensus on the forums is not always one of general public. We do not represent the majority of DT's fanbase.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #201 on: April 22, 2014, 02:09:53 PM »
Most casual fans don't know YNM, and very few of the diehards consider it a great song, so there's no point in playing it. I mean, I don't think it's a horrible song and I wouldn't mind if they did play it, but I'm sure they're aware of - or at least can guess - the status it has among the fans.

I can't think of very many die hards who consider Lie a great song either, they still played it.

And again, this has been proven time and again, the general consensus on the forums is not always one of general public. We do not represent the majority of DT's fanbase.

You're missing the point.  It's not just that nobody thinks YNM is a great song -- it's that nobody really likes it.  It's the black sheep.  You either don't know about the song or you make fun of it (though that's painting with a very broad brush).

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #202 on: April 22, 2014, 02:13:54 PM »
You're missing the point.  It's not just that nobody thinks YNM is a great song -- it's that nobody really likes it.  It's the black sheep.  You either don't know about the song or you make fun of it (though that's painting with a very broad brush).

Except that quite a few people think it's not that bad, so this assessment is not very accurate. And that's on this forum alone. Sure, I doubt it would make anyone's top 50, but I doubt DT looks at those breakdowns to decide their setlists. I happen to enjoy it quite a bit, on a casual basis.

What are you gonna tell me next? That nobody likes Constant Motion, or Forsaken?
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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #203 on: April 22, 2014, 02:15:08 PM »
Uh, no.  Those songs are very well-liked.  You're delusional if you think You Not Me is well-liked.

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #204 on: April 22, 2014, 02:17:19 PM »
Most casual fans don't know YNM, and very few of the diehards consider it a great song, so there's no point in playing it. I mean, I don't think it's a horrible song and I wouldn't mind if they did play it, but I'm sure they're aware of - or at least can guess - the status it has among the fans.

I can't think of very many die hards who consider Lie a great song either, they still played it.
I don't find the comparison good, because Lie appears on one of DT's most popular albums and I've seen way more love for it than YNM. It may be divisive like TDEN, for example, but it gets plenty of appreciation. Besides, it's a kick-ass and energetic live song and I can't imagine YNM going down nearly as well at a DT concert.

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #205 on: April 22, 2014, 02:23:30 PM »
Besides, it's a kick-ass and energetic live song and I can't imagine YNM going down nearly as well at a DT concert.

Well, personally, I've never actually heard YNM being played LIVE, so I can't say how it would translate on stage. But as much as I enjoy Lie, and have always been curious about seeing it live, I never expected that it would come off as energetic.

As for a DT concert, from what I've seen, I expect fans to eat up whatever DT throws at them.
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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #206 on: April 22, 2014, 02:30:25 PM »
Considering You Not Me on the same group as Lie, Constant Motion or Forsaken is completely off. Those song can be divisive, but they have almost universal approve of the casual fan base, even if they are not loved to death, and the amount of haters is at the very least as large as the lovers. And I knew from the very begining that Lie would translate very well live, it actually would've surprised me if it didn't.

You Not Me, despite a lot of people saying it's not the worst song ever, it still isn't liked by the vast majority of people. I'd like to see it live only out of curiosity of the fan reaction, but if I were on the band I'd never play it for other reasons than trolling a little(just like U2 seemed to do with In A Little While if I don't remember wrong)

And if you want more opinions other than DTF, search the song on YouTube or the FII album as a whole, you won't find much appretiation either.

Offline robwebster

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #207 on: April 22, 2014, 03:19:23 PM »
Uh, no.  Those songs are very well-liked.  You're delusional if you think You Not Me is well-liked.
Conflating us with the greater fanbase is always, always a mistake. We're the geekiest and most hardcore, we're the Comic Book Guy of DT fans.

We're not completely alien, we're not completely out of sync and I think it's true that there aren't many people who'd be going, "OHH! You Not Me!! They played our song, they finally played it!!" - but the idea that the whole room would see it as this chalice of shit is relatively unfounded. There's no reason to believe it's much more or less fondly regarded than a song like Burning My Soul - which has been played almost as often as Constant Motion, more often than In the Name of God or Misunderstood... even here, the hotbed of You Not Me's unpopularity, only 30% of us would agree it's DT's worst song. That's still a pretty decent percentage, but even in the middle of the echo chamber it's far from unanimous.

Do I think they're likely to play it? No, not especially - and ever less likely in a fixed setlist! But I can't see anything to suggest it's this huge black mark against the sacred catalogue - it's not some forbidden song with a secret past. It's just an old song that's a bit hit and miss.

Case in point:


Won't link, as it's official material, but a selection of comments:

"2:44 - 3:10 Pwnsome."

"underrated album, good song. i know how many people fell the demos are better, but in my personal opinion i like more the album versions (except for burning my soul and hell's kitchen)"

"Let us say You Or Me is a pretty fucking good version, but it is too long and too worked, ideal for the progressive metal fans. As a final product, this song is much better, more concise. And the chorus is much more powerful! Good work from Child trimming the unnecessary edges off :-) You or Me is an amazing version too, although."

"i wish THIS song was played on live"

"The bass is awesome in this song."

There are negative comments, too, but like fuck is it going to empty a room. These are people who know enough about DT to know who Desmond Child is. The fan base is a lot bigger than some forum!

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #208 on: April 22, 2014, 03:22:24 PM »
Rob speaks the truth, as usual.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: JLB: This year, not 2010, is DT's 25th anniversary
« Reply #209 on: April 22, 2014, 04:26:11 PM »
It's celebrating the anniversary of not one, but two albums, and they're doing so at every single show of the tour, rather than just a one off special show. I'd say that's just as "anniversary happy" as what you're mistakenly attributing solely to MP, however you spin it.

But I'm not going to let this ruin the very special 3 day anniversary of this thread. Happy anniversary, guys! I didn't think we'd make it. I was hoping we wouldn't make it.

They are celebrating the anniversary by playing a handful of songs from each, many of which haven't been heard in a while(or have never been heard).  A far cry from celebrating the 15th anniversary of WDADU, the 20th anniversary of when they wrote a bunch of songs the majority of DT fans haven't heard,  and then the 15th anniversary of I&W.  (There were also 25th anniversary shirts but I'll give them a pass because they were just shirts although a quarter of a century seems like a much cooler anniversary to celebrate than 15 or 20.)

They're celebrating 2 anniversaries every single night, and at the expense of almost half of their discography. Once you factor in the obligatory coverage of the new album, plus the 2 anniversaries, that leaves I think 4 other songs in the setlist? Given how I feel it has negatively impacted the setlist, I think a one off show would have been the better option.

...and the majority of Dream Theater fans would miss out on that.  What sense does that make?  I can see doing WDADU on one night only but both of those other albums are very popular.  That one off stuff should be done sparingly because it kinda sucks when you wanna see something and can't manage to make it to that one off show or maybe didn't even know about it (since they don't advertise some of these surprises)