Author Topic: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?  (Read 12490 times)

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Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #175 on: March 12, 2014, 11:07:43 AM »
Dude, what are you talking about??? It doesn't "negate" anything. If you work in an environment, where your physical apperance doesn't have much if any bearing on your companies image, it doesn't matter. But in most cases it does. Simply pointing out that Google is different doesn't dispell anything about ANY of my previous statements. As others have pointed out, Google is an extreme exception for a number of reasons. I've heard people actually ask, "Why can't more companies be like Google with the way they treat their employees?" It's because they can't afford it.

And don't use words like "he" or "him" if you dispute my point. Instead of trying to "gain followers" use the words "you" or "your" when discussing MY posts.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:17:52 AM by TempusVox »
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #176 on: March 12, 2014, 11:25:57 AM »
Dude, what are you talking about??? It doesn't "negate" anything. If you work in an environment, where your physical apperance doesn't have much if any bearing on your companies image, it doesn't matter. But in most cases it does. Simply pointing out that Google is different doesn't dispell anything about ANY of my previous statements. As others have pointed out, Google is an extreme exception for a number of reasons. I've heard people actually ask, "Why can't more companies be like Google with the way they treat their employees?" It's because they can't afford it.

They still allow smokers to work and smoke on the campus just like every other employer in the country.  As for negating me, stating that Google is an extreme exception is the literal definition of negating someone. There are thousands of companies out there emulating Google.  It doesn't cost money to allow your employees to dress how they wish to dress.  When I worked for FedEx in the computer department we had like 500 employees in our building and only about 50 of them actually came into contact with the customer.  Simple solution, take an internal position.

Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #177 on: March 12, 2014, 11:36:05 AM »
Dude, what are you talking about??? It doesn't "negate" anything. If you work in an environment, where your physical apperance doesn't have much if any bearing on your companies image, it doesn't matter. But in most cases it does. Simply pointing out that Google is different doesn't dispell anything about ANY of my previous statements. As others have pointed out, Google is an extreme exception for a number of reasons. I've heard people actually ask, "Why can't more companies be like Google with the way they treat their employees?" It's because they can't afford it.

They still allow smokers to work and smoke on the campus just like every other employer in the country.  As for negating me, stating that Google is an extreme exception is the literal definition of negating someone. There are thousands of companies out there emulating Google.  It doesn't cost money to allow your employees to dress how they wish to dress.  When I worked for FedEx in the computer department we had like 500 employees in our building and only about 50 of them actually came into contact with the customer.  Simple solution, take an internal position.

Couple of points, "every other employer in the country" is false. Not every employer allows smoking. And as far as thousands of companies emulating Google, also false. While nearly every company would like to emulate Google and their success (and excess), they simply cannot do that. They cannot afford hair salons, free daycare, massages, nap pods, free food, etc, etc. These are benefits and are separate from dress code. But since you brought up Google as the gold standard, it all comes into play. As for your Fed Ex example, not sure what you're referring to there. That proves my point right? Take an internal position. Many companies, depending on industry allow that. Which is what I "affirmed" (not negated) in my post. As for the no smoking thing, I would be willing to bet that Google, like nearly all other companies will be edging toward a "no nicotine" policy. As has been beaten to death already, health care costs are a major issue for employers, so they are fighting back. But as also been established over and over again, there are exceptions.
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Offline MinistryOfLostSouls

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #178 on: March 12, 2014, 12:04:40 PM »
Dude, what are you talking about??? It doesn't "negate" anything. If you work in an environment, where your physical apperance doesn't have much if any bearing on your companies image, it doesn't matter. But in most cases it does. Simply pointing out that Google is different doesn't dispell anything about ANY of my previous statements. As others have pointed out, Google is an extreme exception for a number of reasons. I've heard people actually ask, "Why can't more companies be like Google with the way they treat their employees?" It's because they can't afford it.

They still allow smokers to work and smoke on the campus just like every other employer in the country.  As for negating me, stating that Google is an extreme exception is the literal definition of negating someone. There are thousands of companies out there emulating Google.  It doesn't cost money to allow your employees to dress how they wish to dress.  When I worked for FedEx in the computer department we had like 500 employees in our building and only about 50 of them actually came into contact with the customer.  Simple solution, take an internal position.

Couple of points, "every other employer in the country" is false. Not every employer allows smoking. And as far as thousands of companies emulating Google, also false. While nearly every company would like to emulate Google and their success (and excess), they simply cannot do that. They cannot afford hair salons, free daycare, massages, nap pods, free food, etc, etc. These are benefits and are separate from dress code. But since you brought up Google as the gold standard, it all comes into play. As for your Fed Ex example, not sure what you're referring to there. That proves my point right? Take an internal position. Many companies, depending on industry allow that. Which is what I "affirmed" (not negated) in my post. As for the no smoking thing, I would be willing to bet that Google, like nearly all other companies will be edging toward a "no nicotine" policy. As has been beaten to death already, health care costs are a major issue for employers, so they are fighting back. But as also been established over and over again, there are exceptions.

You are so full of shit it stinks worse than any cigarette.  You argue in convoluted circles.  Your "facts" are made up.  Wow. 

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #179 on: March 12, 2014, 12:06:47 PM »
Well, that didn't last long...
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #180 on: March 12, 2014, 12:09:07 PM »
Dude, what are you talking about??? It doesn't "negate" anything. If you work in an environment, where your physical apperance doesn't have much if any bearing on your companies image, it doesn't matter. But in most cases it does. Simply pointing out that Google is different doesn't dispell anything about ANY of my previous statements. As others have pointed out, Google is an extreme exception for a number of reasons. I've heard people actually ask, "Why can't more companies be like Google with the way they treat their employees?" It's because they can't afford it.

They still allow smokers to work and smoke on the campus just like every other employer in the country.  As for negating me, stating that Google is an extreme exception is the literal definition of negating someone. There are thousands of companies out there emulating Google.  It doesn't cost money to allow your employees to dress how they wish to dress.  When I worked for FedEx in the computer department we had like 500 employees in our building and only about 50 of them actually came into contact with the customer.  Simple solution, take an internal position.

Couple of points, "every other employer in the country" is false. Not every employer allows smoking. And as far as thousands of companies emulating Google, also false. While nearly every company would like to emulate Google and their success (and excess), they simply cannot do that. They cannot afford hair salons, free daycare, massages, nap pods, free food, etc, etc. These are benefits and are separate from dress code. But since you brought up Google as the gold standard, it all comes into play. As for your Fed Ex example, not sure what you're referring to there. That proves my point right? Take an internal position. Many companies, depending on industry allow that. Which is what I "affirmed" (not negated) in my post. As for the no smoking thing, I would be willing to bet that Google, like nearly all other companies will be edging toward a "no nicotine" policy. As has been beaten to death already, health care costs are a major issue for employers, so they are fighting back. But as also been established over and over again, there are exceptions.

You are so full of shit it stinks worse than any cigarette.  You argue in convoluted circles.  Your "facts" are made up.  Wow.

enjoy your week off.

Offline jammindude

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #181 on: March 12, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »
See ya on 5/8!!!   :xbones
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Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #182 on: March 12, 2014, 12:52:13 PM »

Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #183 on: March 12, 2014, 12:55:26 PM »
Alrighty then...
You don't HAVE a soul.You ARE a soul.You HAVE a body.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #184 on: March 12, 2014, 01:43:44 PM »
WTF
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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #185 on: March 13, 2014, 01:47:32 PM »
So, anyway...


I think my company is fairly average with regard to smoking and dress code.  The simple fact of the matter is that it is 100% legal for companies to establish (and enforce) a dress code.  In fact, in my experience, employers have fairly broad rights when it comes to things like dress code.  Many companies also have established and enforced morality clauses as part of their employee policies.  And you'd be surprised at some of the mundane stuff I've seen stipulated in some morality clauses.  Whether or not we agree with these policies is, frankly, irrelevant from the employer's perspective.


Example: I have a few technicians that are always in front of customers.  Our dress code is quite strict and routinely enforced.  When you are going to be in front of customers, you wear a company-branded shirt.   I had to visit a customer site today, so:



I wore the branded shirt.  Per policy.  The company is completely within their legal rights to require this.


I'm not so sure about banning employees from having nicotine in their system, though.


I've emailed a lawyer friend of mine to ask his opinion, I'll post it here when he replies.

Offline bosk1

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #186 on: March 13, 2014, 02:10:34 PM »
I'm not so sure about banning employees from having nicotine in their system, though.


I've emailed a lawyer friend of mine to ask his opinion, I'll post it here when he replies.

It is going to vary state by state.  And I'm not sure there is a clear answer in most places.  I tend to think it would likely pass muster here in CA.  And given how strict and whacky our employment laws are here, if it is okay here, it is probably okay in the vast majority of states.
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Offline TempusVox

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #187 on: March 13, 2014, 02:11:39 PM »
I'll save you the trouble. Companies can and do have no nicotine policies and it's perfectly legal under federal law. Some states prohibit smoking discrimination and companies bound by a collective bargaining agreement may be effected. But this is nothing new. A company called OPW has had a very strict no nicotine policy for decades. They make gas pumps and components.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #188 on: March 13, 2014, 02:15:20 PM »
Re: What Barry just posted about morality clauses...those can get really interesting REALLY fast.

Because the most common one is "no fraternizing"...which means "no office romances allowed".    But what that usually *really* means is..."no drama".   Because if two people are having an office romance, and are being discreet, it is typically not enforced.   Even if the people who have the power to do something about it know about it.   It's only when there's an ugly breakup that everyone gets taken into the backroom and told, "Ya know, we *DO* have a 'no fraternizing' policy."  :justjen
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Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #189 on: March 13, 2014, 02:19:36 PM »
(Chiming in mainly just for the sake of getting notifications)


It states very clearly in the post orders / company policy where I work that tobacco use is STRICTLY prohibited. It's never been enforced. Ever. No testing... nothing. Out of the 15 or so employees at the account I work at, only 3 of us DON'T smoke. That includes the 2 supervisors. The owner of the company doesn't enforce it. I wish he did. . . so tired of that office stinking of stale smoke.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #190 on: March 13, 2014, 02:23:56 PM »
I'm not so sure about banning employees from having nicotine in their system, though.


I've emailed a lawyer friend of mine to ask his opinion, I'll post it here when he replies.

It is going to vary state by state.  And I'm not sure there is a clear answer in most places.  I tend to think it would likely pass muster here in CA.  And given how strict and whacky our employment laws are here, if it is okay here, it is probably okay in the vast majority of states.


Yeah, I know, I can only find out what the rules are here in MA

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #191 on: March 13, 2014, 02:27:59 PM »
We have a STRICT no fraternization policy here that in 14 years I have seen executed twice.  In both cases it was a man who was in middle management, dating a female administrative worker and the female admin was let go.  Those two later got married and now she comes to all of the company functions with him.    I don't know much about the other case but two women were let go over that one.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #192 on: March 13, 2014, 02:31:15 PM »
That's kind of funny that the lower persons on the totem pole got let go, as you would think management would be held to the higher standard and thus catch the brunt of the storm once the shit hit the fan, but I guess not. 

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #193 on: March 14, 2014, 08:59:54 AM »
It has more to do with how valuable the parties involved happen to be.  Project Managers in the Automatic Temperature Control Systems business are difficult to find, especially LEED Certified Managers and they command salaries starting in the $80k range and up. 


I won't belittle anyone who is an administrative office worker, but facts are facts and people who can type, file, email and field telephone calls make less than half of that and for every admin who leaves the company, there are 100 or more of them lined up to take that vacated position.  That's not the case with Project Managers.

Offline Chino

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #194 on: March 14, 2014, 10:02:15 AM »
It has more to do with how valuable the parties involved happen to be.  Project Managers in the Automatic Temperature Control Systems business are difficult to find, especially LEED Certified Managers and they command salaries starting in the $80k range and up. 


I won't belittle anyone who is an administrative office worker, but facts are facts and people who can type, file, email and field telephone calls make less than half of that and for every admin who leaves the company, there are 100 or more of them lined up to take that vacated position.  That's not the case with Project Managers.

Yep. The more disposable you are, and the higher the turnover rate of your position, the more likely you are to have the rules enforced.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #195 on: March 14, 2014, 11:10:28 AM »
It has more to do with how valuable the parties involved happen to be.  Project Managers in the Automatic Temperature Control Systems business are difficult to find, especially LEED Certified Managers and they command salaries starting in the $80k range and up. 


I won't belittle anyone who is an administrative office worker, but facts are facts and people who can type, file, email and field telephone calls make less than half of that and for every admin who leaves the company, there are 100 or more of them lined up to take that vacated position.  That's not the case with Project Managers.

Yep. The more disposable you are, and the higher the turnover rate of your position, the more likely you are to have the rules enforced.


mmmm....that's not what was trying to convey, though.  That's probably my fault, rereading what I wrote.  One of two solutions is reached in cases like this.  One solution is punitive a the other is administrative. 


They don't just "screw the little guy" here.  It's not like that at all.   They make a carefully considered decision once they have all of the facts.  The official policy (which every employee must acknowledge in writing that they've read beginning to end) is if two people who are in the same department as supervisor/subordinate are known to be in a relationship, that's not allowed.  So the possible solutions to that are A) One of them changes departments or B) One of them is laid off.  It's not a "disciplinary solution" it's considered an "administrative solution."  And that's not a minor consideration, given that collecting unemployment insurance would be put off by a few months or longer if you are forced out by a disciplinary issue.


Which of the employees is laid off is a function of the relative value they bring to the company.  Project Managers actually earn huge sums of money in this business because they are the ones that negotiate all of the change orders with our General Contractors and those can often exceed the actual bid.  They get paid -in part- on how profitable their projects end up being.  Most of the guys working here are bringing in $5M+ in change orders a year.  That's a huge part of the company's bread and butter.  One the other hand, an administrative worker, say, the accounts receivable clerk for example, brings in...$0.00.  And some of these admins have been around for 20+ years here, so they're all making between $50k and $75k.  Who do you think a CEO is going to want to keep?  The admin that costs the company $75k a year and can be easily replaced with a fresh, young, eager to please kid just out of college for half the money?  Or the Project Manager who makes $125k a year in salary and another $30k to $50k in "incentives" but brings in $5M a year?  Loyalty is cool and honorable and everything, but sometimes it ain't worth Jack Schitt  :-\




Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #196 on: March 14, 2014, 02:27:15 PM »
Quick update.   I got a response from the attorney I sent the question to:


Quote

Iím not an expert in employment law. (I** B****** of the ********** firm is, and so Iím copying her.)


But Iím quite sure that itís lawful for an employer to mandate a smoke-free workplace. Itís a bit of a more complicated question, I would think, whether an employer may refuse to hire someone who smokes at home and outside, on his own time. Can an employer dictate any and all ďlifestyleĒ issues?


The attorney I asked is a nationally well-known criminal defense attorney.  The other attorney he CC'd (who is another client/acquaintance of mine) is one of the leading employment law experts in the country.  She's admitted to The Bar in multiple states and often appears on television as an "expert" so they're not just some random schmucks. 


When she replies I'll post it here.


Offline El Barto

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #197 on: March 14, 2014, 02:42:33 PM »
Quote from: I** B****** of the ********** firm
Can an employer dictate any and all ďlifestyleĒ issues?
And this is where I run into issues here. While I personally think they should be able to, I think it's a sticky wicket in our current society where there are plenty of factors at work in when you can discriminate against perspective employees. I think the current arguments as to why this is just dandy are all pretty weak and flimsy, so that really only leaves the lifestyle aspect, and I think that's going to be a path that's not worth the nuisance to travel.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #198 on: March 27, 2014, 10:06:59 AM »
Unless you work at Google.  From April 2012 until about six weeks ago I shared an apartment in Mountain View, California with my friend Alex who is a Google programmer.  I've been on that campus many times and the pride of Google is expressions of individuality.  There are people who work there who skate across the campus with blue Mohawks, and have sleeve tattoos, and smoke cigarettes, and make around 200k a year doing so.

Google is a rare exception. Google is one of a kind. Google also has massage parlors, spas, and arcades that the employees are free to go use whenever they'd like. In some instances, when a skill set is worth $200k per year, the employee does have a slight upper hand. But Google also has a business model like no other company out there.

I work at a company that is ran like Google (and we work with google a lot) and it's really nice to be able to have the freedom of wearing what you want. We have a basketball court in the office and couches to work at instead of your desk and tons of other weird things that aren't normal for work environments.  The downside is you have to essentially devote your life to the job. They make it comfortable for you because they know you are going to be working like crazy.

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #199 on: March 27, 2014, 12:34:37 PM »
Unless you work at Google.  From April 2012 until about six weeks ago I shared an apartment in Mountain View, California with my friend Alex who is a Google programmer.  I've been on that campus many times and the pride of Google is expressions of individuality.  There are people who work there who skate across the campus with blue Mohawks, and have sleeve tattoos, and smoke cigarettes, and make around 200k a year doing so.

Google is a rare exception. Google is one of a kind. Google also has massage parlors, spas, and arcades that the employees are free to go use whenever they'd like. In some instances, when a skill set is worth $200k per year, the employee does have a slight upper hand. But Google also has a business model like no other company out there.

I work at a company that is ran like Google (and we work with google a lot) and it's really nice to be able to have the freedom of wearing what you want. We have a basketball court in the office and couches to work at instead of your desk and tons of other weird things that aren't normal for work environments.  The downside is you have to essentially devote your life to the job. They make it comfortable for you because they know you are going to be working like crazy.

That sound sweeeeeeet

Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #200 on: May 02, 2014, 12:44:28 PM »
I am not drawing the line at facial hair, facial hair was just my personal example. I am drawing the line at physical appearance, not just for men, for every gender, for every single person. People should have the right to appear as they want, and when I say that as long as it it doesn't interfere with the job.(such as you wouldn't want a guy who spiked up their mohawk 2ft at a construction site because they couldn't wear a helmet, but if somebody wants to shave the sides of their head and keep the top long, they should have every right to do so and so forth.). Clothing is what helps identify someone who works at whatever job, which is why I find that okay. But the moment you're telling people how they have to appear, I don't find that okay.

Some people consider their clothing part of their appearance and identity.  I'd say it's definitely part of their appearance, at least.  Bottom line, if employers are allowed to have some guidelines about appearances, I think any line you draw is going to be arbitrary.

But, when you're not on the clock, you can change clothes immediately.  If you've cut all your hair off for the job, you can't grow it back out for the weekend.

Offline El Barto

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #201 on: May 02, 2014, 12:54:36 PM »
I think the simple question to address this (and all of the issues in this thread) is do you have a right to a job? The answer is that you don't. You should have equal opportunity for a job in the public sector (and unfortunately the law says in the private sector as well), but you still work at the pleasure of your employer.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: My Job will no longer hire smokers. Thoughts?
« Reply #202 on: May 02, 2014, 11:37:13 PM »
I don't think there is a "right" answer to the question if you have a right to a job. Do you mean legally? Then ya, you're accurate. But seeing as how it's a question, it means we can ask "should it be a legal right," with it. Which just highlights the fact that it's an answer that depends upon your perspective, and moral codes.