Author Topic: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.  (Read 11697 times)

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Offline jonnybaxy

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"Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukraine.
« on: March 03, 2014, 06:22:33 AM »
So, some troops loyal to Russia recently occupied the Citizen airports of Crimea, then Putin admitted that they were his troops and he is not backing them out.

A lot of the Citizens in Crimea were pro-Russia and considered themselves Russian before riots were happening, so is it justified for Putin to occupy this area in protection of it's people, or is it an unjust invasion of Ukraine?

World War 3 on the brink?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26414600
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 01:53:23 AM by jonnybaxy »

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 10:34:57 AM »
I'm not really concerned. For one thing, we have neither the inclination nor the capability to interfere with Russia's expansion. We can wag our finger a bit, but who would care? Furthermore, it's not exactly like we have some moral authority when it comes to taking over places of strategic interest. In this case, might suck for the Ukrainians, but Putin is going to do whatever he feels like and nobody will do anything about it. A privilege a few nations get (including us) and occasionally take advantage of.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 10:56:35 AM »
Pretty much what Barto said. I'm kinda "wait and see" on any opinion about this, but I doubt anything will be done or anything extraordinary will happen.

Offline soundgarden

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 12:42:53 PM »
This whole event makes me consider modern views on what "expansion" is.  We live in a unique time in human history where a nation annexing another is frowned upon; rather than seen as a victory for the powerful.  Are the borders established today the culmination of thousands of years of history?  Who has the right to re-draw borders?  The people of an existing nation, a la newly formed South Sudan?  The people with most economic ties to a region, a la Europe with Ukrainian gas pipe lines? 

I am trying to see US interest in this affair.  Its clearly not moral, despite whatever the administration says.

Offline Dark Castle

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 12:48:01 PM »
Well, the US along with the UK has a treaty with the Ukraine which says we'll back them up because they handed over nuclear weapons.

https://www.france24.com/en/20140303-ukraine-us-uk-diplomacy-russia-budapest-memorandum/

Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 02:32:14 PM »
With Russia it's always going to be tricky, the cold war will always have an effect on the decision and reaction, the smallest military action by the western world could easily spark up a whole war... But with NATO and the UN that would be a very low chance.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 02:34:15 PM »
Well, the US along with the UK has a treaty with the Ukraine which says we'll back them up because they handed over nuclear weapons.

https://www.france24.com/en/20140303-ukraine-us-uk-diplomacy-russia-budapest-memorandum/
Well that is an interesting aspect, which I was unfamiliar with. However, I don't think it changes much. We'll either cut a behind the scenes deal with Putin, or failing that find a loophole to prevent actually having to honor our obligations. Again, nobody's going to forcibly intervene with Russia right now.

And on a damned amusing note:
Quote from: Secretary of State John Kerry
You donít just invade another country on phony pretexts in order to assert your interests. There are ways to deal with this and President Putin knows that,
How on Earth could he say that while keeping a straight face. Guess he's a better Statesman than I'd given him credit for.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2014, 02:51:51 PM »
This whole event makes me consider modern views on what "expansion" is.  We live in a unique time in human history where a nation annexing another is frowned upon; rather than seen as a victory for the powerful.
That's because the world since the cold war has only really one superpower with enough power and clout to safely go around annexing things. But as US power declines, I do suspect to see Russia, China, and other powerful nations asserting themselves a bit more aggressively.

Actually, China did start doing that already with some of those Japanese and South Asian islands a few years ago.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 05:09:27 PM »
Well, the US along with the UK has a treaty with the Ukraine which says we'll back them up because they handed over nuclear weapons.

https://www.france24.com/en/20140303-ukraine-us-uk-diplomacy-russia-budapest-memorandum/

That article pretty much makes it clear that the US and the UK will not intervene on Ukraine's behalf, as the agreement between the US, UK, Ukraine and Russia simply gives the US and UK the "right" to intervene for Ukraine if they so choose.  It's not really a binding defensive treaty obligating the US and the UK to defend Ukraine against Russia. 

Overall, I think Ukraine is pretty much screwed here.  There is not sufficient US interest at stake here to put  American lives at risk, let alone start a war with Russia.  The UK is probably in the same boat as the US, while the EU, lead by Germany, depends heavily on Russian oil, and would probably be perfectly content to offer up Ukraine a sacrificial lamb if it means maintaining good relations with the Russian bear (Ukraine's not even an EU member; they've been sitting on the fence about that issue for almost two decades at this point, and Ukraine's shown lack of commitment to the EU will probably come back to bite them in the ass here).  France will follow Germany, while China and India probably just don't give a fuck.  None of the major powers are going to stick their necks out for Ukraine, so I really do not see becoming anything other then "Russia om-noms a smaller country, the rest of the world just shakes their fingers."
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:14:51 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline jammindude

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 07:47:35 PM »
But who has the advantage on the Risk board?    :angel:
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Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline The Dark Master

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 07:58:11 PM »
But who has the advantage on the Risk board?    :angel:

Asia, obviously.   They get an extra 7 guys per turn!   :P

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 08:10:54 PM »
Holy shit, you are right! The Ukraine is a sitting duck!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 08:16:40 PM »
Nothing major will happen, no. Nations who hold nukes don't seem to like fighting each other, not directly. We duke it out elsewhere, somewhat covertly. North Korea. Vietnam. Afghanistan. Iran/Iraq (both sides) then again in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now in Syria., etc. There's a battle going on between us, but it's just not with troops in uniform. It's through money, and often corruption of public services in foreign nation.


Quote from: Secretary of State John Kerry
You donít just invade another country on phony pretexts in order to assert your interests. There are ways to deal with this and President Putin knows that,
How on Earth could he say that while keeping a straight face. Guess he's a better Statesman than I'd given him credit for.

It's a statement I would agree with. Kerry could either be a hypocrite, or just someone who learns from his errors.


Offline jonnybaxy

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 06:11:18 AM »
There was (according to Ukraine) a deadline of 3AM (GMT) given to the Ukrainian troops in Crimea to retreat.... This has passed and still no records of attacks.

Offline Tick

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2014, 06:18:23 AM »
So many posts on Facebook blaming the weakness of Obama for this invasion. Quite silly.

I mean does anyone really think if Romney was president Putin would have said...

"Oh no Mitt Romney is in power, we dare not invade the Ukraine! Too bad Obama wasn't president or we would so own that land! Oh well, pass the vodka comrade and lets toast to what could have been!"
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2014, 06:40:20 AM »
So many posts on Facebook blaming the weakness of Obama for this invasion. Quite silly.

I mean does anyone really think if Romney was president Putin would have said...

"Oh no Mitt Romney is in power, we dare not invade the Ukraine! Too bad Obama wasn't president or we would so own that land! Oh well, pass the vodka comrade and lets toast to what could have been!"
Agreed. The whole silliness about that is, the differences between Obama, Romney, and Bush on foreign affairs is mostly one of rhetoric around campaign season. There isn't much difference in terms of policy. If we wanted a guy kooky enough to threaten WWIII over another nation being aggressive around its boarders, we could have had McCain.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2014, 07:58:18 AM »

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2014, 08:17:55 AM »
So many posts on Facebook blaming the weakness of Obama for this invasion. Quite silly.

I mean does anyone really think if Romney was president Putin would have said...

"Oh no Mitt Romney is in power, we dare not invade the Ukraine! Too bad Obama wasn't president or we would so own that land! Oh well, pass the vodka comrade and lets toast to what could have been!"
While I agree that blaming Obama for it is silly partisanship, I also agree that Obama's foreign policy has been weak. To be clear, I consider that a huge improvement over rash cowboy action, but it really has been somewhat vague and hard to gauge. It also needs to be said that very few presidents in the last 50 years have really had to take on the Russians, and that certainly does add a level of complexity. Nobody really gives a shit about the consequences of upsetting some Arab dictator, but you have so maintain a pretty steady sabre against a national superpower. Still, contemplative action is definitely not the same as deliberate action.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2014, 08:54:12 AM »
I know we ended up helping Afghanistan repel the Russians, but I know Reagan didn't do that overnight. It tooks years, didn't it?

It's absolutely stunning to me how Fox News and a part of the Republican and conservative movements can get away with the criticism they have of Obama while simultaneously glorifying Reagan.

Offline Tick

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2014, 10:33:08 AM »
I know we ended up helping Afghanistan repel the Russians, but I know Reagan didn't do that overnight. It tooks years, didn't it?

It's absolutely stunning to me how Fox News and a part of the Republican and conservative movements can get away with the criticism they have of Obama while simultaneously glorifying Reagan.

Cable news networks are always in the tank for the party they represent.
Fox news is the Republican broadcast network.
MSNBC is the Democratic broadcast network.
Do you really expect a non-bias opinion from these sources?  You will never ever get one, no matter what. It is what it is.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 11:11:33 AM »
So many false equivalencies and red herrings, I don't know how to start.

Do you see MSNBC in my post? How is that at all relevant? Assuming MSNBC is just as bad as Fox News, why should their actions justify Fox News? Saying "that's how it is" isn't a very good starting point for discussing how it should be.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2014, 11:29:31 AM »
Six years later and Blame Bush is still the favorite phrase of the liberals.  Apparently, accepting responsibility is not something they do easily. Hey, let's blame the Founding Fathers for starting this country while we're at it.   :lol

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2014, 11:45:51 AM »
Christ, this thread's going off the rails in a big hurry. Tick's point was valid in that he was mainly pointing out that FOX shouldn't be taken seriously, which I think we all agree. Furthermore, nobody here has blamed Bush for anything, AFAICT. I did allude to the fact that we have no real right to complain thanks to him, but I don't see how that's blaming him at all.
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Offline Tick

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2014, 11:49:41 AM »
So many false equivalencies and red herrings, I don't know how to start.

Do you see MSNBC in my post? How is that at all relevant? Assuming MSNBC is just as bad as Fox News, why should their actions justify Fox News? Saying "that's how it is" isn't a very good starting point for discussing how it should be.
I didn't say you should justify anything. I am asking you to consider the source. Who the fuck cares if you disagree with Fox? They are what they are and that won't change so stop your belly aching.
MSNBC is obliviously as bias. So we don't have to assume anything.


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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2014, 12:00:04 PM »
Firstly, as long as people are automatically discreting Fox for their bias, MSNBC deserves the same treatment. 

Secondly, the Blame Bush slogan wasn't directed at anyone specific here. I was referencing the articles making their way around the Internet.  I should have posted the link in my last post.  Here it is now.  https://www.examiner.com/article/msnbc-s-rachel-maddow-blames-george-bush-for-ukraine    She's not the only one either. 

Capriciously suggesting that Putin would have invaded even if Romney was in power is short-sighted. Romney stated Russia would be a threat.  Obama quipped, "The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back."  So, who is more ignorant there?  If people would just admit that Obama fucked up in that aspect, I would feel much better.

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2014, 12:10:21 PM »
If anyone thinks MSNBC has an ounce more credibility than Fox, I canít take anything they say seriously. That is my last thought that is off topic. Sorry.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2014, 12:18:43 PM »
Capriciously suggesting that Putin would have invaded even if Romney was in power is short-sighted. Romney stated Russia would be a threat.  Obama quipped, "The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back."  So, who is more ignorant there?  If people would just admit that Obama fucked up in that aspect, I would feel much better.
Labeling them a threat wouldn't have changed anything. In fact as we saw with Dumbass's "axis of evil" remark, you might just as likely back them into a defensive posture. The simple truth is that we have neither the means nor the will to do anything to deter Russia, and whether or not you call them a friend or a threat doesn't change that.

On a side note, why does everybody just assume that Putin is some bloodthirsty maniac? Heads of state generally tend to have the same motivations, unless they're nutjobs. Putin's exploiting an advantageous situation the same as we would. That doesn't mean that he's itching to start a global conflict.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2014, 12:24:58 PM »
Barto nailed it.

What Romney voiced there was just campaign primary rhetoric. There'd be very little, if anything, in policy change under him.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2014, 12:30:14 PM »
You can say that but you can't know for sure.  You're protecting your saviors credibility and  just distracting from the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding Russia.  This is what pisses me off about Obamanaics.  They can't just say he messed something up so they'll use some kind of smoke and mirrors to make people look elsewhere for answers. He's been the President for six years and Blame Bush, Blame Reagan, Blame Yo Mama is still an acceptable response to please the herd.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2014, 01:25:17 PM »
You can say that but you can't know for sure. You're protecting your saviors credibility and  just distracting from the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding Russia.  This is what pisses me off about Obamanaics.  They can't just say he messed something up so they'll use some kind of smoke and mirrors to make people look elsewhere for answers. He's been the President for six years and Blame Bush, Blame Reagan, Blame Yo Mama is still an acceptable response to please the herd.
Well, you CAN be sure, because nothing about the foreign policy Romney put forward suggested he was going to do anything differently, aside from using more beligerent language around primary season. But to the more important issue, what'd you want Obama to do different about Russia?


« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 01:31:03 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2014, 01:34:41 PM »
Also, on a related note, I've got to say - these statements about how Obama supporters just "blame Bush" constantly is becoming a lame excuse. The real reason Obama continues to has support as a national leader is because the GOP does not seem able to produce even one person who comes close to representing what the majority of the nation want. Not that Obama actually accomplishes that either, but no one individual in the opposing party even comes close.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2014, 01:36:21 PM »
You can say that but you can't know for sure.  You're protecting your saviors credibility and  just distracting from the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding Russia.  This is what pisses me off about Obamanaics.  They can't just say he messed something up so they'll use some kind of smoke and mirrors to make people look elsewhere for answers. He's been the President for six years and Blame Bush, Blame Reagan, Blame Yo Mama is still an acceptable response to please the herd.
For fuck's sake, dude. Before you play those games how 'bout you learn who the players are. Neither PC nor myself have any real fondness for Obama, and I'm on record repeatedly as saying that he's probably every bit as bad a president as the dimwitted oaf that preceded him. You won't find anybody here who views Obama as a savior.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2014, 01:51:16 PM »
You can say that but you can't know for sure. You're protecting your saviors credibility and  just distracting from the fact that Obama has done nothing regarding Russia.  This is what pisses me off about Obamanaics.  They can't just say he messed something up so they'll use some kind of smoke and mirrors to make people look elsewhere for answers. He's been the President for six years and Blame Bush, Blame Reagan, Blame Yo Mama is still an acceptable response to please the herd.
Well, you CAN be sure, because nothing about the foreign policy Romney put forward suggested he was going to do anything differently, aside from using more beligerent language around primary season. But to the more important issue, what'd you want Obama to do different about Russia?

Are you saying that a president's views on foreign policy have never changed during the course of their tenure as president?  It's the same from their inauguration day until the next president's inauguration day?  So if some international crisis occurred and American soldiers were being butchered in some random country, just because Romney didn't have a foreign policy about that country, he would ignore it?  Is that what you are trying tell me? 

As far as Obama's actions, how about something as opposed to nothing.  It wouldn't be much of a big deal however every right wing, and even some left wing, political pundits said Putin would increase aggression in the area if Obama was elected. So maybe Obama should have listened to others instead of mocking them.

What is lame is that the president, his cronies, his supporters, still like to use the phrase "Blame Bush" or "previous administration" or whatever innuendo he may use to shift blame away from himself. It's actually quite pathetic that six years later he still needs to make blind accusations. It's the sign of a weak leader.


For fuck's sake, dude. Before you play those games how 'bout you learn who the players are. Neither PC nor myself have any real fondness for Obama, and I'm on record repeatedly as saying that he's probably every bit as bad a president as the dimwitted oaf that preceded him. You won't find anybody here who views Obama as a savior.

Then stop defending him like he can do no wrong.  Instead of saying "well Romney wouldn't have done anything different," (sure, shift attention to the guy who isn't even in the White House), how about admit the fuckin truth of it that Obama is an extremely weak leader. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2014, 01:58:20 PM »
For fuck's sake, dude. Before you play those games how 'bout you learn who the players are. Neither PC nor myself have any real fondness for Obama, and I'm on record repeatedly as saying that he's probably every bit as bad a president as the dimwitted oaf that preceded him. You won't find anybody here who views Obama as a savior.

Then stop defending him like he can do no wrong.  Instead of saying "well Romney wouldn't have done anything different," (sure, shift attention to the guy who isn't even in the White House), how about admit the fuckin truth of it that Obama is an extremely weak leader. 

You mean like I did 10 posts earlier?  ::)

While I agree that blaming Obama for it is silly partisanship, I also agree that Obama's foreign policy has been weak.

If I actually felt like wasting my time I could find 30 other instances of me making similar comments about him being weak. Look, everybody that posts regularly in P/R has seen me criticize him fairly mercilessly. It's the only thing Scheavo and I really argue over. If you want to make weak arguments about what other posters think then that's your lookout, but trying to lump me in with the fanboy crowd is only going to make you look foolish.
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Re: "Biggest EU Crisis Of 21st Century" Russia and Ukrane.
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2014, 02:02:12 PM »
You said his foreign policy was weak.  I said he's a weak leader.  Two different things.  While one might contribute to the other, they are not identical.