Pro Wrestling Thread

[Chino]

I love this clip:
https://old.reddit.com/r/maybemaybemaybe/comments/k5srag/maybe_maybe_maybe/

[jjrock88]

😆

[jjrock88]

I can’t say I’ve ever been much of a fan or really watched TNA/Impact besides casually here and there. But I am curious to see where this partnership with AEW leads. This obviously benefits Impact but I don’t see a big benefit for AEW. I think AEW would be better off doing their own thing. But could be interesting

[TheCountOfNYC]

I can’t say I’ve ever been much of a fan or really watched TNA/Impact besides casually here and there. But I am curious to see where this partnership with AEW leads. This obviously benefits Impact but I don’t see a big benefit for AEW. I think AEW would be better off doing their own thing. But could be interesting

Other than AEW, Impact has the most ex-WWE guys in the industry, a lot of them having left on bad terms. If AEW really wants to be competition to WWE beyond beating NXT in the ratings every week, they need as many guys working with a chip on their shoulder as possible.

[jingle.boy]

So, AEW show is OnDemand.  Just watched the Battle Royal.  Good stuff.  Great to hear Good Ole JR and Schiavone on the mic again.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

RIP Brodie Lee. Gutted for his wife and young children.

I am truly grateful for the run he got in AEW. He was underutilized at WWE and it was great to see him used properly.

[axeman90210]

Such a shock to see the new last night. Sad, but also nice to see how many peers in different companies had such wonderful things to say about him.

I always thought it was funny that he dropped the TNT belt back to Cody so quickly after winning it, I wonder if that was the onset of his illness.

[Phoenix87x]

Undertaker was just on Joe Rogan

Pretty good listen and its on spotify if you want to check it out. Shorter highlights videos are on youtube.

[jingle.boy]

Cool ... definitely want to check that out. 

Dayum!!!  2h43m!!!!

[KevShmev]

To me, it's been a given for as long as I can remember that the Mount Rushmore of pro wrestling is Hogan, Flair, Austin and Rock, but Undertaker has a strong case for it as well. I can't imagine taking any of the other four off the list, although I guess it would have to be Flair since he never dominated WWF/WWE during his prime and (amazingly) never main evented a Wrestlemania (last match, the whole multiple main events thing is crap).

[jingle.boy]

Hogan, Flair, HHH, Undertaker. For me, longevity and consistency for the latter two plays a role to put them on top over Rock and Austin (who I’d put on if it were a 6 headed mountain).

[TAC]

[Anguyen92]

So in any spare time I had for the last week, I was listening to some wrestling audiobooks of autobiographies.  I was listening to the Stone Cold Truth told by Steve Austin and JR.  Austin was pretty good at doing the audiobook thing.  It's like less of him reading his own book and more listening to a conversation of his life story and his time as an active wrestler.  It just saddens me the way Austin talked about the state of the product near the end of the book (and he stated it in 2003 when the book came out) on how it was so slick and prefab that it didn't feel raw or realistic or exciting or engaging in which he has a point.  You think with the success of Stone Cold had on the wrestling industry in general that you think Vince would let more wrestlers cut loose with the way they want to portray themselves on camera and in front of the crowds, but he didn't want to go that route for various reasons.  The only downer to the audiobook was that Austin left off some details about certain events of his life (probably due to time constraints) and that JR felt not as enthusiastic in his parts. 

I'm also quite amazed how the day before his final match ever in his career, against the Rock at WM19, Austin was in the hospital due to having a heart attack, mainly from stress of not wanting to stink the joint and drinking a lot of coffee and energy drinks.  Sure, it was Rock and Austin at the tailends of their active career and it was pretty much a greatest hits match for them (The Rock donning Austin's vest midmatch was a hell of a moment though), but it was still pretty exciting to watch.

Also, I listened to most of the audiobook to Mick Foley's Have a Nice Day.  You think with a 3 hour, 18 minute runtime he would tell the entire story?  Nope, that book was extremely long so, naturally, parts had to cut.  Naturally, Foley was excellent really at expressing his tone when it calls for it.  He had some good accents and imitations for some of the guys he talked about, especially the person who trained him.

[Cool Chris]

Flair is automatic. It is a shame about how his prime didn't align with a significant run in the WWF/E, but sometimes the timing doesn't work out.

I don't want to put Hogan in the pantheon, but this thread might not exist, let alone be 77 pages long, with no Hogan.

I am partial to Undertaker, he was my avatar here for a while. His level of consistency, relevancy, and professionalism are unmatched. If anyone has ever said a bad word about him, I have not heard it.

I do not know if Rock's career was long enough to warrant Rushmore status.

I think Michaels needs some consideration, his in-ring work was as good as anyone's, for two separate extended periods.

I really only followed WWF/E, and JCP back in the 80s, so my scope is limited.

[Anguyen92]

I think the argument against HBK being on Mount Rushmore was that when he was champion and during the times he had his most famous matches in his prime (Ladder Match with Razor Ramon, Iron Man with Bret, Hell in a Cell with Undertaker) was during times where WWF/E was not at a peak when it comes to drawing eyeballs or revenue in comparison to Hogan's or Austin's time which sucks because there were times in that down period of 95-96 before Austin rose where HBK was probably the only thing worth watching WWF at the time in comparison to WCW.

Also, a lot of mainstream non-wrestling people probably wouldn't know who Shawn Michaels is compared to Hogan, Austin, and the Rock and maybe Undertaker.  Heck, I didn't know who the guy was until I started watching again in 2006 and I was watching it during 2000-01 as a young kid, which like 2-3 years before he came back.  HBK became a favorite of mine pretty fast and I was naturally excited to watch every Wrestlemania match he was in until 2010 since the buildup was pretty engaging for those matches.

[KevShmev]

I will take Bret Hart over Michaels when it comes to ring work, but neither was a draw like Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc., so it's hard to put either up there.  Michaels loses points for me as well for what a cocksucker he was behind the scenes in the 90's and when you consider how many times he lost a title without actually losing it in the ring.  He made amends with many for that in the 00's, but he can't erase how he acted in the 90's.

HHH wouldn't be on my Mount Rushmore if it was 12 deep.

I get not putting Austin and Rock on there due to lack of longevity, but they were so huge, and were THE top guys during what was probably the apex of pro wrestling from a popularity standpoint, so I can't not put them on there.  And even though Flair was obviously a better wrestler than Hogan, the latter was the main reason for the explosion of wrestling into the mainstream in the 80's.  I know it's a cliche to say "you had to be there," but you really can't explain how over Hogan was in the 80's unless you witnessed it in real time. 

[KevShmev]

Also, the one argument against Undertaker in regards to comparisons to Hogan, Rock, Flair and Austin was those latter four were all totally over because of their natural charisma and/or ring work.  It took the Undertaker character to get Mark Calaway over, and then it took the streak, another gimmick, to keep him relevant for as long as he was.  Mad props to Calaway for taking a gimmick that would have probably failed in the hands of almost anyone else, but those other four didn't need a gimmick like that to get over and stay over.

[Cool Chris]

I will take Bret Hart over Michaels when it comes to ring work, but neither was a draw like Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc., so it's hard to put either up there. 

Michaels had something that Hart didn't have, despite them both being A+ in the ring. Just a gut feeling I cannot articulate well. And true they didn't draw but the business was shit in the mid-90s, something that was in no way their fault. And maybe Michaels being a dick keeps him off the mountain, I don't know if I want to make that judgment.

I know it's a cliche to say "you had to be there," but you really can't explain how over Hogan was in the 80's unless you witnessed it in real time. 

Yes, I was there, and 100% know what you mean. Dude hosted SNL - back when that meant something! - which was mindblowing for a young wrestling fan in the 80s.

[Phoenix87x]

My own personal Mount Rushmore would be Sting, Taker, Hall and Michaels

[Anguyen92]

I will take Bret Hart over Michaels when it comes to ring work, but neither was a draw like Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc., so it's hard to put either up there. 

Michaels had something that Hart didn't have, despite them both being A+ in the ring. Just a gut feeling I cannot articulate well. And true they didn't draw but the business was shit in the mid-90s, something that was in no way their fault. And maybe Michaels being a dick keeps him off the mountain, I don't know if I want to make that judgment.

Well, we could argue if being a dick keeps someone off the mountain, we could argue that Hogan shouldn't be there?  He was against a wrestlers' union or something like that.  Could have probably helped wrestlers nowadays, especially in these covid times.  I don't know if Austin was really a dick backstage.  The only thing closest to it, that I can tell, was him not wanting to work with Owen Hart anymore after Owen Hart give him a poorly executed tombstone that destroyed Austin's neck and shorted his career by a couple of years.  I highly doubt anyone can be upset at the Rock at all during his wrestling career.  Maybe CM Punk in 2012-13, but I think was more of him being upset at how WWE is ran than the Rock himself as a person.

[KevShmev]

Michaels had something that Hart didn't have, despite them both being A+ in the ring. Just a gut feeling I cannot articulate well. And true they didn't draw but the business was shit in the mid-90s, something that was in no way their fault. And maybe Michaels being a dick keeps him off the mountain, I don't know if I want to make that judgment.

Hart wasn't the high flyer that Michaels was, but to me, his style looked more real.  Just two guys down on the mat duking it out in what looked more real and having a fight to the finish.  Michaels' style looks great on TV, but it was almost too choreographed to where it looked like more like a circus act at times than a wrestling match.

Yes, I was there, and 100% know what you mean. Dude hosted SNL - back when that meant something! - which was mindblowing for a young wrestling fan in the 80s.

Oh, for sure!  Time has shown that Terry Bollea is not a good guy and very much of a liar, but Hulk Hogan the character was as entertaining as it got back in the day.   They can call Michaels Mr. Wrestlemania all they want, but Hogan was the original Mr. Wrestlemania. He freaking main evented seven of the first eight, and the one he didn't (IV), he was still in the main event, in the corner of Randy Savage when he defeated Ted DiBiase for the world title in the tournament for the vacant title.

[KevShmev]

Well, we could argue if being a dick keeps someone off the mountain, we could argue that Hogan shouldn't be there?  He was against a wrestlers' union or something like that.  Could have probably helped wrestlers nowadays, especially in these covid times.  I don't know if Austin was really a dick backstage.  The only thing closest to it, that I can tell, was him not wanting to work with Owen Hart after Owen Hart give him a poorly executed tombstone that destroyed Austin's neck and shorted his career by a couple of years.  It's hard to say if anyone can ever be upset at the Rock at all.  Maybe CM Punk in 2012, but I think was more of him being upset at how WWE is ran than the Rock himself as a person.

CM Punk was one of my favorites, but I would imagine he would a difficult person in real life to get along with.

IIRC, Hogan was against unionizing because he wanted to protect his spot as the top guy and keep making fat stacks, but of course there are countless stories about Ric Flair pulling stuff behind the scenes to keep his spot, too. Seems to be the way it was back then if you wanted to make sure you stayed on top.  Of course the a-holes in the Kliq took it to a whole new level in the 90's, as they wanted to bury anyone who wasn't with them.  Heck, just look at Vader.  He was a beast in WCW, yet saw his run in WWF pretty much flop thanks to Michaels.  Awful.

[T-ski]

It’s like you all forgot about a man known as Andre the Giant.

[jingle.boy]

I'd definitely put Hart over Michaels too.  Saw most of the Stone Cold podcast with him recently, and the thing that stuck out to me is how many people had an absolute "classic" match with The Hitman - Austin at WM 13; Michaels and the Iron Man Match; Owen at WM 10; Davey Boy at SS '92; Henning KOTR; Benoit (Owen tribute).  There aren't a lot of duds in the Hitman's inventory.  Well, Goldberg, but he's got duds with everyone.

[KevShmev]

As great as the Summerslam and KOTR matches were, the best Hart/Hennig match I ever saw was from a house show in '89 that was shown on Prime Time Wrestling.  I remember taping that episode and re-watching that match more times than I can count.  Found it:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLmh_wJIxSQ
part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTjP6-agBaM

To me, Hart/Hennig was like Flair/Steamboat.  Just put them in the ring, let them go, and you knew you were getting a great match.

T-ski, Andre the Giant would certainly be high on my list as well.  If I did a secondary Mount Rushmore, he'd be on it.

[jingle.boy]

As great as the Summerslam and KOTR matches were, the best Hart/Hennig match I ever saw was from a house show in '89 that was shown on Prime Time Wrestling.  I remember taping that episode and re-watching that match more times than I can count.  Found it:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLmh_wJIxSQ
part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTjP6-agBaM

Thanks!  Saved to "watch later".. which I'll do on the bike shortly.  Think I just might watch a few 'classics'.

[KevShmev]

That's always a dangerous rabbit hole to go down as you can kill/waste hours doing that. 

[jingle.boy]

That's always a dangerous rabbit hole to go down as you can kill/waste hours doing that. 

When the bike stops, so does the YT watching.  I've got the Undertaker/Hogan title change match already in my saved list for a while.

[KevShmev]

Those early Undertaker matches were so terrible, as he worked too slow and methodical; it just wasn't entertaining to watch.  It's funny how many love to rip Hogan for no-selling because of how he would "Hulk Up" at the end of matches, but the Undertaker no-sold almost EVERYTHING his opponents did for years, and always retained that part of his character (when he would sit up suddenly, as is rising from the dead! ).  It's like people forget that those things were part of their character, not that Mark Calaway and Terry Bollea were trying to bury their opponents.  Thank goodness that part of Undertaker's character, where he no-sold everything, was ditched.

[jingle.boy]

Watched that Perfect/Hitman match. Lord Alfred ... miss his voice. I seem to have zero recollection that Schiavone was in the WWF back then. And man, Hennig was a masterful seller.

[Cool Chris]

Lord Alfred ... miss his voice.

Promotional consideration paid for by the following...

[KevShmev]

Lord Alfred was always a good listen because he never really favored the faces or the heels.  He would compliment the faces like the face announcers, but he was never shy about giving props to the heels when their dirty tactics worked.  And on occasion, he would give commentary where he would blatantly favor the heel. 

And he set up one of my favorite all-liners in wrestling history, during the Hogan/Andre cage match at Wrestlefest in the summer of '88.  As Andre was climbing the cage late in the match...

Lord Alfred: Andre trying to climb over the cage so he can leap to victory.

Sean Mooney: Did you say leap?

 

[Cool Chris]

Just saw a YT video about the best talkers in wrestling history. So... who you got? Off the top of my head (I only really ever followed JCP in the 80s and WWF/WWE in spurts throughout the 80s/early 90s, and 2000s.

God tier:

Ric Flair. I grew up watching JCP on TBS. I never got in to WCW and wasn't following WWF/E when Flair was there, so my only real connection with him is during his time with JCP. Damn he was golden on the mic. "I've spent more money on split liquor...." I doubt I knew what liquor was when I saw that promo as a kid, but damn if I didn't believe every word he said, and bought in to him being the baddest son of a gun on the planet.

Bobby Heenan. Being called a Humanoid never felt so good as when it came out of the mouth of the Weasel.

Not quite God tier, still above mere mortals.

Rowdy Roddy Piper. His promo could go anywhere, at any time, be about anything, and be the most engaging, fascinating thing you will hear the whole day.
The Rock.
Jake "the Snake" Roberts (while sober).

[KevShmev]

Hard to top Flair, Rock, Austin and Hogan.  All being great talkers is a big reason why I consider them the 4 GOAT's of pro wrestling.

Bobby Heenan was awesome, for sure.

Piper was also a great one, as was Jake the Snake.

I would also add CM Punk. 

[jingle.boy]

Hard to top Flair, Rock, Austin and Hogan.  All being great talkers is a big reason why I consider them the 4 GOAT's of pro wrestling.

Bobby Heenan was awesome, for sure.

Piper was also a great one, as was Jake the Snake.

I would also add CM Punk.

Agreed on all of the above.

Macho Man was an absolutely unique promo guy.  I think there are a lot wrestlers with great mic skills, but not quite the charisma like a Flair or Rock.  Bret Hart comes to mind.  JBL too.  Hogan (as a face at least) was the other way around... great charisma, but sometimes awkward and clunky.  Same with Sting.

When it comes to managers, Cornette and Paul E are the only other ones after Heenan that were ever worth a damn on the mic.

Almost God-tier:  HHH, HBK, Dusty, Mick/Mankind/Foley, Taker