Pro Wrestling Thread

[jjrock88]

The first War Games was amazing. The other amazing thing is that the heel faction has won the coin toss in every single War Games 😂

[Cool Chris]

Anyone watch the "Dark Side of the Ring" series? I haven't been; I don't need to hear anyone talk about the Screw Job for the billionth time. But I watched the last one about Owen. I wasn't following any wrestling at that period, having followed it as a kid in the 80s/early 90s, and checking back in after 2000, so I didn't learn about it till years later. I don't even know if I ever saw or knew of Owen. I've obviously heard about it since, but I recall hearing only a couple people like JR and Jimmy Korderas talk about it at length.

I won't go in to it too much, but the biggest takeaway for me was his kids. They were 7 and 3. Mine are 9 and 2. I cannot imagine the devastation of getting a call in the middle of the night hearing your spouse is dead, and then having to figure out a way to tell me kids that.

[Phoenix87x]

People are always quick to talk about the screw job when it comes to the harts and the WWE, but I always considered Owen's death to be the real tragedy. What happened to Bret was lame and everything, but no one died. One of favorite things about sting was him repelling down from the rafters. Never did it cross my mind that that stunt could end up deadly.

Dark side of the ring is pretty decent for anyone that is seeing these stories in depth for the first time, but I've watched so many shoot interviews over the years that I know most of the material, but its a decent show none the less.

[Cool Chris]

Dark side of the ring is pretty decent for anyone that is seeing these stories in depth for the first time, but I've watched so many shoot interviews over the years that I know most of the material, but its a decent show none the less.

That's why I haven't watched it till now. All the other episodes told stories I didn't need to hear anymore about, or didn't care about anyway.

I don't care for the re-enactments in the show. JR: "...and then King nudged me..." Cut to hazy clip of "King" nudging "JR." I found it distracting. The story is just fine through the telling.

And holy hell Martha taking her kids up on the catwalk!

[jjrock88]

Haven’t watched that but I have been watching the Undertaker Last Ride documentary, which is excellent. I just couldn’t understand why he would have come back after that Roman Reigns match at WM, which I think had the absolute perfect farewell for him. It never made sense to me but now watching the documentary I understand his rationale a bit for returning

[jingle.boy]

Was just going to post about The Last Ride.  I haven't watched Sunday's episode yet.  Really captivating stuff.

[Cool Chris]

I am a huge Undertaker guy so will get to that eventually.

[Cool Chris]

https://twitter.com/undertaker/status/1275424960933216256?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

No, Dead Man. Thank YOU. 

[abydos]

Did he retire?

[KevShmev]

Until Vince drives a truck load of money up to his house again when he’s desperate for star power at a major PPV. 

[abydos]

Looked it up... so, his last match was as his biker persona and not the actual Undertaker? Disappointing.

[jingle.boy]

Until Vince drives a truck load of money up to his house again when he’s desperate for star power at a major PPV.

Exactly. The current documentary series on him has been a fascinating watch. Still haven’t watched least weeks chapter.

[cramx3]

Until Vince drives a truck load of money up to his house again when he’s desperate for star power at a major PPV.

Exactly. The current documentary series on him has been a fascinating watch. Still haven’t watched least weeks chapter.

I should check it out, I don't follow wrestling anymore, but used to so much and their lives are usually really interesting (and often times in a negative/sad way).

[jingle.boy]

At least with Calloway, it's not a tragic story.  Some 'sad' ness to it in some spots, but overall, a great homage to the tail end of his career.

[cramx3]

At least with Calloway, it's not a tragic story.  Some 'sad' ness to it in some spots, but overall, a great homage to the tail end of his career.

I figured his story might not be so tragic as he's still alive, but there's so much dirt behind the scenes, Beyond the Mat was a really good wrestling documentary.

[Anguyen92]

I haven't seen the Beyond the Mat, but I did recall a very disturbing scene from it where Mick Foley had his kids was watching his I Quit match with The Rock in Royal Rumble 1999 in person and you can see his daughter crying as Mankind keeps getting wailed on with those chairshots to the head (and he's handcuffed to his back).  I don't know what Mick was trying to accomplish at the time, but fake/scripted/whatever or not, that sight can scar a kid.  I'm sure there's more detail about why he made that decision to have his kids watch that match in person in his second autobiography (that and his first one was a pretty good read, I might add).

[Cool Chris]

There has been nothing official about Undertaker retiring, but all the wresting news sites (for whatever they are worth) are reporting it as if it is true. He has been giving more and more interviews as himself, which he essentially hasn't done for 30 years, so there is definitely a shift there.

If he is retired he appears to be going out on his own terms, which is all we can really hope for, right? Maybe not perfect, or how he envisioned it, but really, what big name wrestlers have had the ideal retirement? Flair did after WM24, but that didn't last. Michaels did, till he had that match recently than no one wants to acknowledge ever happened

Regarding the Mankind/Rock match, I thought it was established that Rock let the moment get away from him with all the unprotected chair shots, and has since apologized to Mick, to which Mick accepted the apology with no hard feelings.

[jjrock88]

It's cool re-watching the debut of Undertaker from Survivor Series 90 and the 1990 matches from WCW with Mean Mark!

Roddy Piper as the announcer at Survivor Series 90 with Undertakers debut..........."Look at the size of that hamhawk, check out them drumsticks baby!"

[Cool Chris]

Crazy, I have watched clips of that match multiple times and I never knew that was Piper who made that call.

[jjrock88]

Crazy, I have watched clips of that match multiple times and I never knew that was Piper who made that call.

Taker dominated that match.  But 80's and early 90's wrestling is the best!! 

[KevShmev]

There is no way anyone saw his debut and thought he'd become a legend.  Sure, those of us who had seen him as Mean Mark Callous in WCW shortly before knew he had great in-ring talent, but he didn't seem to have the charisma to become a big star.  I would still argue that he lacks the charisma of the other biggest wrestling stars ever (Hogan, Rock, Austin, Flair), but he took the gimmick Vince gave him and made it legendary.  The streak sure helped a lot in growing his legend.  Changing his wrestling style helped a lot, too, as his early matches as the Undertaker sucked, as it was basically him no-selling everything while working too slow and deliberate.  Once he started wrestling more "human" , there was no stopping him.

[jjrock88]

There is no way anyone saw his debut and thought he'd become a legend.  Sure, those of us who had seen him as Mean Mark Callous in WCW shortly before knew he had great in-ring talent, but he didn't seem to have the charisma to become a big star.  I would still argue that he lacks the charisma of the other biggest wrestling stars ever (Hogan, Rock, Austin, Flair), but he took the gimmick Vince gave him and made it legendary.  The streak sure helped a lot in growing his legend.  Changing his wrestling style helped a lot, too, as his early matches as the Undertaker sucked, as it was basically him no-selling everything while working too slow and deliberate.  Once he started wrestling more "human" , there was no stopping him.

You are definitely correct about that.  For the first 10 months, the Undertaker gimmick was too "gimmicky".  The slow deliberate pace wasn't going to be a success.  It was a bit too painful to watch and clearly had to be adjusted, which it was.  By Survivor Series 91, he was getting in the grove and won the heavyweight title.  From that point in 91, he became more comfortable with the gimmick and it became unstoppable.

[KevShmev]

There is no way anyone saw his debut and thought he'd become a legend.  Sure, those of us who had seen him as Mean Mark Callous in WCW shortly before knew he had great in-ring talent, but he didn't seem to have the charisma to become a big star.  I would still argue that he lacks the charisma of the other biggest wrestling stars ever (Hogan, Rock, Austin, Flair), but he took the gimmick Vince gave him and made it legendary.  The streak sure helped a lot in growing his legend.  Changing his wrestling style helped a lot, too, as his early matches as the Undertaker sucked, as it was basically him no-selling everything while working too slow and deliberate.  Once he started wrestling more "human" , there was no stopping him.

You are definitely correct about that.  For the first 10 months, the Undertaker gimmick was too "gimmicky".  The slow deliberate pace wasn't going to be a success.  It was a bit too painful to watch and clearly had to be adjusted, which it was.  By Survivor Series 91, he was getting in the grove and won the heavyweight title.  From that point in 91, he became more comfortable with the gimmick and it became unstoppable.

The title win over Hogan in late '91 was when I really took notice that they had big plans for him.  That was only the 3rd pinfall loss Hogan had suffered since 1984 (the first being the fake pin by the twin referee to Andre in '88, and then the clean loss to the Warrior in 1990).  Granted, the whole "Taker winning the belt/Hogan winning it back in controversial fashion/Hogan getting stripped of the title" was a gimmick used to vacate the title so Flair could win the world title without having to beat Hogan to do it, since there was no way Vince was going to let Flair just waltz in and beat Hogan for the world title, but the fact that Taker was the heel picked to get the brief title reign was big.

[Volante99]

You knew “Mean Mark Callous” was a great in-ring talent?

I’m not even convinced Undertaker is a great “in-ring“ talent. I can’t name a single great Undertaker match that doesn’t involve HBK. One of the greatest gimmicks of all time, though.

[KevShmev]

You knew “Mean Mark Callous” was a great in-ring talent?

I’m not even convinced Undertaker is a great “in-ring“ talent. I can’t name a single great Undertaker match that doesn’t involve HBK. One of the greatest gimmicks of all time, though.

For a guy his size, yes, he is a great in-ring talent.  Most of those guys can/could do more in the ring than they usually show, except maybe The Ultimate Warrior.  

I would argue that the Undertaker is the greatest gimmick of all time by a wide distance.  Whatever is number 2 is a very distant 2nd.

[jjrock88]

You knew “Mean Mark Callous” was a great in-ring talent?

I’m not even convinced Undertaker is a great “in-ring“ talent. I can’t name a single great Undertaker match that doesn’t involve HBK. One of the greatest gimmicks of all time, though.

For a guy his size, yes, he is a great in-ring talent.  Most of those guys can/could do more in the ring than they usually show, except maybe The Ultimate Warrior.  

I would argue that the Undertaker is the greatest gimmick of all time by a wide distance.  Whatever is number 2 is a very distant 2nd.

You are correct about the title win and the gimmick opinion by a wide margain.

[Anguyen92]

You knew “Mean Mark Callous” was a great in-ring talent?

I’m not even convinced Undertaker is a great “in-ring“ talent. I can’t name a single great Undertaker match that doesn’t involve HBK. One of the greatest gimmicks of all time, though.

I don't know.  He's had some good matches with Kurt Angle (especially in No Way Out 2006).  That match in 2006 was the first instance that Undertaker looks like a good worker again.  The problem in the history of the Undertaker really is that Vince keeps putting him in feuds with other bigger dudes that works a much more slower and sluggish style than he does (Giant Gonzalez, Hendrich (sp?), Mabel, Mark Henry, Great Khali, etc.)  Thankfully, he looks good if he was working with relatively smaller guys that can sell well and work in a fashion that seems realistic against a guy the size of the Undertaker like HBK, Bret Hart, Edge, CM Punk.

Although I wouldn't have mind it if he was working with other guys his size that can move and work ok.  The matches he had with Batista in 2007 were not huge five-star Meltzer-certified gems, but sometimes you just want to get excited about a big heavyweight match that has two big dudes beating each other up and still be entertained at what they do and I think Undertaker/Batista did that.

[jjrock88]

Mean Mark Callous had some pretty solid matches in WCW.  Supposedly these matches in WCW didn't impress Vince upon first view, but once he met Mark in New Jersey at a house show, the meeting went well and he gave him a shot.  Obviously this went very well lol.

[Cool Chris]

I’m not even convinced Undertaker is a great “in-ring“ talent. I can’t name a single great Undertaker match that doesn’t involve HBK. One of the greatest gimmicks of all time, though.

When he had great matches, they relied on psychology, storytelling, and mystique as much as they relied on in-ring technical prowess.

I know the Streak had some garbage matches, and he was part-time through the end of of it, but consider that for Wrestlemania's 23 (Bautista), 24 (Edge), 25 (Michaels), 26 (Michaels), 27 (HHH), 28 (HHH) and 29 (Punk), you could make a sound argument he had the best match at each of those respective events

There is no way anyone saw his debut and thought he'd become a legend....Changing his wrestling style helped a lot, too, as his early matches as the Undertaker sucked, as it was basically him no-selling everything while working too slow and deliberate.  Once he started wrestling more "human" , there was no stopping him.

Unlike many other instances where they didn't realize what they had in a talent or what to do with them in the long term, they (with Mark's determination and talent) were able to transform it to the legend it would become.

[KevShmev]

While the Undertaker/Michaels Wrestlemania matches both suffered from the modern day shtick of "let's have a match where both guys kick out of 144 finishers and people will think it is great," the match at 25 was definitely great stuff.  I think far too many of his later WM matches were only considered very good or great because of the threat of the streak ending (combined with the close call of him kicking out of endless finishers when it appeared as if the streak was on the verge of ending).  A truly great match shouldn't need that kind of gimmick, IMO.  I thought it was fittingly ironic that the match that ended the streak was pretty much a dud. 

[jingle.boy]

A concussion will do that!

[cramx3]

I really never enjoyed the Undertaker's wrestling and often found his matches to be the least interesting (unless there was some stipulation which they often did: hell in a cell, graveyard, whatever the fires around the ring matches were called).  I always have and will respect him for his work in the business and his character is iconic, but I can't recall a single time I really enjoyed his wrestling.  Even the matches that he's most well known for, I give credit to the other guy for making them interesting IMO.  Having said that, I haven't watched him in a loooooong time and I didn't see any of those WM matches that were being referenced. 

[jingle.boy]

@ Marc... you owe it to yourself to watch the 4 WM matches (2 v HBK; 2 v HHH).  WWE.com has a lot of matches; Dailymotion users have loaded up a bunch there as well.

[cramx3]

@ Marc... you owe it to yourself to watch the 4 WM matches (2 v HBK; 2 v HHH).  WWE.com has a lot of matches; Dailymotion users have loaded up a bunch there as well.

I have no desire to watch actual wrestling so I don't see myself doing that, but I'm sure they are among his best and maybe would change my mind a bit.  But having said that, HBK and HHH were both much better wrestlers so I imagine their role plays a big factor in those matches too.

[jingle.boy]

Oh, I haven't watched 'current' wrestling in well over 10 years.  But man, going back to some of these classic/legendary matches recently has been great.