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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2520 on: April 16, 2020, 03:07:05 PM »
I try not to think of Stephanie as a nitwit. She is very smart, understands branding and all that. She just should never have been given any position related to creative.

I think HHH (when do we start calling him Paul?) has the best grasp of how to balance 1) wrestling (booking and all that), and 2) the business of "sports entertainment." Remember at heart, he loves wrestling, has since he was 5, and despite all the politicking, knows that the wresting side of WWE has to succeed or else the entity of WWE will fail.

You look at NXT and see how much of a mind for the business he actually has. NXT is the best wrestling show on television, and as the guy who runs that brand, his stamp is all over it.
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Online Anguyen92

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2521 on: April 16, 2020, 03:08:48 PM »
I think HHH (when do we start calling him Paul?)

I would like to refer to him as The Man with 3 Hs in honor of Broken Matt Hardy.

Offline Zook

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2522 on: April 18, 2020, 06:55:51 AM »
Vince hates the word wrestling, which is why the announcers are ordered to call the wrestlers superstars (men) and divas (women).  I am sure he goes to bed every night cursing the fact that his biggest annual event is called WRESTLEmania. :lol :lol

Factor in that his nitwit daughter was behind hiring soap opera writers to be a part of the creative team and write the promos the wrestlers are ordered to give, and it's no wonder that the product has been so bad now for so many years.

I am no fan of HHH, but I can't help but think that if Vince were gone and Stephanie was removed from the company that he would find a way to steer it back to the way it used to be at least on some level.

They dropped the Diva label like 4 years ago.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2523 on: April 18, 2020, 05:38:39 PM »
Mike Rotunda was released on April 15. Think about that for a minute.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2524 on: April 18, 2020, 06:24:47 PM »
Mike Rotunda was released on April 15. Think about that for a minute.

Oh the Irony  :lol

Offline T-ski

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2525 on: April 18, 2020, 07:37:08 PM »
Mike Rotunda was released on April 15. Think about that for a minute.

It’s been a while, but was that Irwin R.?
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Online Anguyen92

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2526 on: April 18, 2020, 07:52:50 PM »
Mike Rotunda was released on April 15. Think about that for a minute.

It’s been a while, but was that Irwin R.?

Yep.  Irwin R. Schyster.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2527 on: April 18, 2020, 07:55:59 PM »
I was so fascinated with him as a kid. I was like "why's this dude wearing a shirt and tie"  :lol

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2528 on: April 18, 2020, 08:26:54 PM »
There were so many goddamn dumb stupid job-related gimmicks in the 80s but IRS was awesome, even for a kid. And his finisher was the "Write-off." Glorious. And DiBiase was a legend even before he came up with one of the best heel characters in history as the Million Dollar Man.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2529 on: April 18, 2020, 08:34:24 PM »
Even as a little kid I was shaking my head at the job gimmicks.

I remember the first time I saw The Goon and I couldn't help but think "what the hell am I watching"  :lol

Online Anguyen92

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2530 on: April 18, 2020, 08:42:44 PM »
Let's see here, job-related gimmicks I can recall.

The Goon.  The Mountie.  Spark Plug Bob Holly.  Duke "The Dumpster" Droese.  Tugboat.  Doink the Clown.  Repo Man. 

Heck, The Undertaker started out as an undead mortician when he debuted, I think.  I think we've discussed this before, but you got to give props to The Undertaker for surviving the early-mid 90s with a gimmick that didn't look to go far. Those gimmicks I've stated wouldn't have last as long as the Undertaker in terms of legacy, match quality, lore, etc.  Obviously, the fact that he was a bigger imposing man in size and can move pretty well for his size helped a lot.  It also helped when he was starting to work with more quality wrestlers in the late 90s like HBK, Austin, Bret, Mankind and that was enough to make it to the 2000s when the streak became a bigger deal when quality wrestlers like Batista, Edge, Orton, CM Punk, HHH, was contending to end it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 08:52:07 PM by Anguyen92 »

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2531 on: April 18, 2020, 09:52:38 PM »
Tugboat, and Earthquake, One Many Gang.. those weren't "jobs." They just helped fill out the WWF roster with Vince's fascination with really big dudes.

Mark Callaway was the right person, with the right gimmick, at the right time. Obviously Vince, Pritchard, and whomever create it. Even Joe Johnston had a hand in establishing the Undertaker as we know it. But in the end Mark was given the ball, and carried it for 30 years better than anyone could have imagined. Consider: In 1990 he debuted with less fanfare than the Gobbledy Gooker. In 2020 he had the most talked about, highest rated match* at Wrestlemania.


*I know, it wasn't really a match. My point is still valid.
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Online Anguyen92

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2532 on: April 18, 2020, 10:29:47 PM »
You mean they didn't state that Tugboat was a sailor?  I thought I read something that stated they portrayed him as an actual sailor or that it was obvious that his profession outside of wrestler was a sailor.  I was barely born in the early 90s, so that period of WWF is unknown to me except for the obvious stuff that happened then.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2533 on: April 19, 2020, 05:24:25 AM »
Tugboat, and Earthquake, One Many Gang.. those weren't "jobs." They just helped fill out the WWF roster with Vince's fascination with really big dudes.

Mark Callaway was the right person, with the right gimmick, at the right time. Obviously Vince, Pritchard, and whomever create it. Even Joe Johnston had a hand in establishing the Undertaker as we know it. But in the end Mark was given the ball, and carried it for 30 years better than anyone could have imagined. Consider: In 1990 he debuted with less fanfare than the Gobbledy Gooker. In 2020 he had the most talked about, highest rated match* at Wrestlemania.


*I know, it wasn't really a match. My point is still valid.

Agreed. Undertaker was that anomaly that should have been just another throw away goofy gimmick, but Callaway was the total perfect fit that made it work and made it incredible. From the first time I ever saw him, he instantly became my favorite.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2534 on: April 19, 2020, 09:42:15 AM »
They were smart to change the way the Undertaker wrestled, as his initial style, with all of his moves being very slow and deliberate, was boring as hell to watch. All of this matches the first year or two of the gimmick were awful to watch.

Also, Cool Chris, I believe Vince came up with the Million Dollar Man gimmick, but DiBiase did an incredible job with it.  Still one of my all-time favorite heels.  The fact that he could wrestle really well and always put on great matches made the character that much better.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2535 on: April 19, 2020, 10:55:19 AM »
They were smart to change the way the Undertaker wrestled, as his initial style, with all of his moves being very slow and deliberate, was boring as hell to watch. All of this matches the first year or two of the gimmick were awful to watch.

Good point on the first part. Vince never looks past the day after tomorrow, so while his initial no-sell style of matches worked well at the beginning, that was obviously not sustainable. But who outside of Steamboat, Savage, Hart, and a few others had great matches in the WWF at that time?

Also, Cool Chris, I believe Vince came up with the Million Dollar Man gimmick, but DiBiase did an incredible job with it.  Still one of my all-time favorite heels.  The fact that he could wrestle really well and always put on great matches made the character that much better.

I will defer to your knowledge on this one. Nothing really happens without Vince's approval at a minimum, and most often his input. Sometimes it is hard to pinpoint where the creation of the character starts, and when the wrestler Superstar takes over and makes it their own.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2536 on: April 19, 2020, 12:09:25 PM »
They were smart to change the way the Undertaker wrestled, as his initial style, with all of his moves being very slow and deliberate, was boring as hell to watch. All of this matches the first year or two of the gimmick were awful to watch.

Good point on the first part. Vince never looks past the day after tomorrow, so while his initial no-sell style of matches worked well at the beginning, that was obviously not sustainable. But who outside of Steamboat, Savage, Hart, and a few others had great matches in the WWF at that time?

Henning/Von Erich feuds were always good.  Rude also put on some great matches, iirc.
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Offline max_security

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2537 on: April 19, 2020, 12:31:17 PM »
I like Mick Foley as " The Boulder " on The Last Airbender cartoon. The voice sounded so familiar when I first saw it and I was surprised when to see his name when the credits rolled. 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2538 on: April 19, 2020, 12:39:20 PM »
Right but Vince knew Hulk body-slamming Andre would sell tickets. If Savage/Steamboat have a timeless classic, that is a testament to their professionalism and skill, not Vince's management or booking.

I remember in 7th grade there was a new kid who seemed to have a hard time making friends. He always came up to me telling me I looked like Rick Rude. I thought that was odd, as I didn't have his long curly hair or mustache. If only at any point in my life I resembled him....

And I was specifically talking about WWF during that era. JCP, Mid-South, and other promotions generally had better technical wrestling, or if you prefer, rasslin' matches.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2539 on: April 19, 2020, 03:31:25 PM »
And I was specifically talking about WWF during that era. JCP, Mid-South, and other promotions generally had better technical wrestling, or if you prefer, rasslin' matches.

So was I.  Rude joined the WWF in '89.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2540 on: April 19, 2020, 04:19:06 PM »


Also, Cool Chris, I believe Vince came up with the Million Dollar Man gimmick, but DiBiase did an incredible job with it.  Still one of my all-time favorite heels.  The fact that he could wrestle really well and always put on great matches made the character that much better.

I will defer to your knowledge on this one. Nothing really happens without Vince's approval at a minimum, and most often his input. Sometimes it is hard to pinpoint where the creation of the character starts, and when the wrestler Superstar takes over and makes it their own.

IIRC, Vince made the pitch to DiBiase to join the WWF, but without telling him what his gimmick would be; all he would tell him was "if I were a wrestler, this is the character I would play."  I suspect Vince did that because he didn't really know DiBiase, and he didn't want to tip his hand on what the character would be until DiBiase was under contract.

And I was specifically talking about WWF during that era. JCP, Mid-South, and other promotions generally had better technical wrestling, or if you prefer, rasslin' matches.

So was I.  Rude joined the WWF in '89.

'87, actually. :P

He was on Andre's team on the first Survivor Series in 1987, and of course Rude had that great feud with Jake the Snake in 1988.   Rude was another guy that it didn't matter who he was in the ring with; you knew that match was going to be good.  His SummerSlam 1989 match with Ultimate Warrior was a classic.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2541 on: April 19, 2020, 04:21:38 PM »
Also, if stories told by those in-the-know are correct, DiBiase was supposed to win the world title at Wrestlemania in 1988 (in the 14-man tournament), but once Honky Tonk Man refused to drop the I-C strap to Randy Savage in late '87, the plans were changed to put the world title on Savage at WM4, as Vince wanted Savage to be the top face when Hogan went on sabbatical following WM4 and he needed to have one of the two major singles titles.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2542 on: April 19, 2020, 04:25:54 PM »
My memory is hazy from this period, and timelines are all jumbled up in my head. I was a fan of WWF and JCP around this time, but was just a kid and not a big enough fan to recall many of the details.

Rick Rude's son at his Hall of fame induction. It's brilliant and less than 2 minutes, check it out if you haven't. And there is a comment somewhere that says basically "Rick Rude's son just gave a better promo than Roman Reigns has ever done."  :lol

Also, if stories told by those in-the-know are correct, DiBiase was supposed to win the world title at Wrestlemania in 1988 (in the 14-man tournament), but once Honky Tonk Man refused to drop the I-C strap to Randy Savage in late '87, the plans were changed to put the world title on Savage at WM4, as Vince wanted Savage to be the top face when Hogan went on sabbatical following WM4 and he needed to have one of the two major singles titles.

Wasn't that what precipitated him having the "Million Dollar Belt?" I recall reading that was a way to appease him for never giving him the championship.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2543 on: April 19, 2020, 04:31:47 PM »

Wasn't that what precipitated him having the "Million Dollar Belt?" I recall reading that was a way to appease him for never giving him the championship.

I believe that is correct.  I would love to have seen DiBiase been giving a run with the real world title belt for a bit in '88, but it was not to be.  They seemingly had no clue what to do with him once the Savage feud was resolved at SummerSlam (in the Hulk/Macho vs Andre/DiBiase tag match), hence him getting thrown into a dumb feud with Hercules, and then getting a WM5 match with Brutus Beefcake when they weren't even feuding and had zero build-up.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2544 on: April 19, 2020, 04:57:57 PM »
I never really had much of an opinion of DiBiase... probably because he was so under-utilized.  I didn't see much of him pre-WWF, and while the MDM gimmick was great, I never thought much of his in-ring performance.
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Offline jjrock88

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2545 on: April 23, 2020, 07:19:49 PM »
I just rewatched one of my favourite matches of all time. Warrior vs Savage from WM7. Why does someone always cut onions at the end of this match

Offline jjrock88

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2546 on: April 23, 2020, 07:25:38 PM »
Will also mention my all time favourites in no order:

- Royal Rumble 92
- Savage vs Steamboat WM3
- Flair vs Steamboat trilogy 89
- Warrior vs Savage WM7
- Warrior vs Hogan WM6
- War Games 92
- Flair vs Sting Clash 1
- Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard Strarrcade 85

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2547 on: April 23, 2020, 07:44:58 PM »
My top five is as follows from what I can recall.

Royal Rumble 2004 (not just because of the result and the action, and that Benoit went the distance for an hour and was strong throughout, but the fact that that match helped set the stage for a lot of matches that would occur at that Wrestlemania)

HHH vs HBK vs Chris Benoit at WM 20 (yeah, what happened three years after that will be forever tainted, but what a closing moment after that match seeing Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit hold their world championships high after being in the industry for about 20 years, wrestling all over the world, in Mexico, in Japan, in ECW, in WCW, and made it to WWE and got that big moment at Wrestlemania 20.  Those are moments that feels natural in the industry. Moments that Vince would probably love to replicate, but it always looks forced when he tries to script it)

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Minrou Suzuki (NJPW King of Pro Wrestling 2012).  Nothing like seeing a match that goes for 30 minutes and have only one pinfall attempt in it and it was the finisher, but the action and the limb work was pretty compelling.

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs AJ Styles.  Day 17 of the G1 Climax in 2015.  I never understand when people complain about certain matches and certain wrestlers when they do not "sell" any body part done to them until I saw that match.  Those guys went 28 minutes and those guys were limping in agony throughout the match.

Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle.  Royal Rumble 2003.  (Yeah, I was a Benoit fan. It hurts what he did to his family, to himself, and to the industry on that day in 2007, but damn dude, that guy had some tremendous matches).
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 07:53:26 PM by Anguyen92 »

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2548 on: April 23, 2020, 08:04:39 PM »
I am not one to watch entire matches from the past. There are a couple YT channels I watch where they will review old PPVs, I enjoy watching those. There are also some promos/clips that I will watch if I need a nostalgia kick.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2549 on: April 23, 2020, 08:14:13 PM »
I just rewatched one of my favourite matches of all time. Warrior vs Savage from WM7. Why does someone always cut onions at the end of this match

Even though I think Savage and Elizabeth were separated or divorced by that point, that was the perfect ending to that storyline.  He went into retirement (briefly) reunited with Elizabeth and loved by the fans again. 

Will also mention my all time favourites in no order:

- Royal Rumble 92
- Savage vs Steamboat WM3
- Flair vs Steamboat trilogy 89
- Warrior vs Savage WM7
- Warrior vs Hogan WM6
- War Games 92
- Flair vs Sting Clash 1
- Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard Strarrcade 85

For as limited as the Warrior was, he had three legitimately great PPV matches, the two you mentioned and the one vs Rick Rude at SummerSlam '89.

That Flair/Steamboat trilogy was something else.  Many thought the last one at WrestleWar was the best of the three, but I thought the first at Chi-Town Rumble was the best and most exciting.  A truly great match, IMO, has to have a great finish, and Steamboat winning the title was so unexpected and so exciting.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2550 on: April 23, 2020, 08:56:59 PM »
At the time of WM VII and for their Kayfabe wedding, Macho and Elizabeth were still married but the relationship was pretty much on its last legs. They didn't formally separate until after WM VIII.

Kudos to Randy for being cool with Elizabeth being brought into WCW despite being an ex lover/wife. I wouldn't be able to function if my ex fiancee was walking around me each day at work  :P    And if I had to think about her fucking Luger...  :puke:

As far as favorite matches go:

Love Warrior/Hogan WM VI (Warrior is limited, but its such a larger than life match)
Bulldog vs Bret at Summerslam Wembley stadium (Its like watching a Prog Metal song in Wrestling match form. Its technicality is incredible)

Offline jjrock88

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2551 on: April 23, 2020, 10:16:56 PM »
Warrior vs Hogan clearly had lower expectations. But it exceeded every expectation and then some. Pretty much a perfect wrestling match, five stars no question. This is a match that had every one by the palm of their hands and is the definition of a main event. Hogan vs Andre might be the biggest match of all time, but this gets my attention every time. It’s cool that Edge, Christian and Renee Young were all ringside and young fans for this classic and was the catalyst for their love of wrestling.  Who would win between Hogan vs Warrior had everyone guessing and had the Skydome packed to the rafters.

In regards to Flair vs Steamboat 89 trilogy, show me a better example of professional wrestling....I’m waiting.

Royal Rumble 92 and Wargames 92 are just outstanding.......if you haven’t watched either, don’t call yourself a wrestling fan.....watch them ASAP!!!!

Offline jjrock88

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2552 on: April 23, 2020, 10:26:59 PM »
Also just watched Hogan vs Savage from WM5. Mega Powers explode! The Mega Powers storyline might be the best storyline in the history of pro wrestling! Awesome pay off to the feud

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2553 on: April 23, 2020, 11:10:27 PM »
That Flair/Steamboat trilogy was something else.  Many thought the last one at WrestleWar was the best of the three, but I thought the first at Chi-Town Rumble was the best and most exciting.  A truly great match, IMO, has to have a great finish, and Steamboat winning the title was so unexpected and so exciting.

I did enjoy the first match of the trilogy the most, mainly because of Steamboat winning it and I honestly felt that match had very little downtime in action.  Of course, a Chicago crowd for a big match is always a great crowd (even though they were mostly rooting for Flair in that one, if I recall correctly).

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Pro Wrestling Thread
« Reply #2554 on: April 24, 2020, 04:24:29 AM »
I’ve been rewarding some old matches lately- DailyMotion has a lot of full matches posted. Benoit-HHH-HBK was great. Undertaker-HBK Wrestlemania (the first one) was unreal. Rock-Hogan.  Angle-Lesnar (how he survived that failed moonsault - the first time I watched that match, I remember thinking he must’ve broke his neck!)

Still have a few saved on YT, and DM. Particularly looking forward to the trio of Rock-Stone Cold Wrestlemania matches.

Also, I had a VHS of the very first War Games. Man that was good. I’m pretty sure I digitized it, and have it on my computer.
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