Has Petrucci's guitar playing become simpler over the years?

[Outcrier]

I'd say less stylistically diverse, but not simpler. I too would love to hear more of the funky/bluesy stuff that we heard on tracks like TTT, LITS and so on.

Yeah, less metal and more rock, funk, etc.. would be good.

[Polis]

IMO the DT12 album was one giant homogenous blob stylistically, coming from all the members of DT. JP does his metal thing/look guys I can play fast!, I still can't hear myung, rudess is really, really annoying and out of place now (though I like his personality), the multiple james voice is nauseating, and mangini's drum sound is absolutely retarded. DT wants to be so traditional, so "DT sounding" that they end up sounding really meh and not memorable. The last good DT album was Octavarium, and even then it was getting kind of overdone and tedious. I really tried to like this album, but my disdain for it somehow outgrew and beat my obsession with DT. 

You can't hear Myung? Are you listening to this through your smartphone speaker?

LOL! Even I can hear Myung from a smartphone speaker.

I didnt literally mean myung was inaudible, I meant he's still way too back in the mix, which is 50% guitar. The only parts that I could remember was during guitar solo in TLG, and a few random parts in EM.

[Mosh]

IMO the DT12 album was one giant homogenous blob stylistically, coming from all the members of DT. JP does his metal thing/look guys I can play fast!, I still can't hear myung, rudess is really, really annoying and out of place now (though I like his personality), the multiple james voice is nauseating, and mangini's drum sound is absolutely retarded. DT wants to be so traditional, so "DT sounding" that they end up sounding really meh and not memorable. The last good DT album was Octavarium, and even then it was getting kind of overdone and tedious. I really tried to like this album, but my disdain for it somehow outgrew and beat my obsession with DT. 

You can't hear Myung? Are you listening to this through your smartphone speaker?

LOL! Even I can hear Myung from a smartphone speaker.

I didnt literally mean myung was inaudible, I meant he's still way too back in the mix, which is 50% guitar. The only parts that I could remember was during guitar solo in TLG, and a few random parts in EM.

Then you didn't listen hard enough. There's a part in Illumination Theory that's literally just bass and drums. And that's just one example.

[1neeto]

IMO the DT12 album was one giant homogenous blob stylistically, coming from all the members of DT. JP does his metal thing/look guys I can play fast!, I still can't hear myung, rudess is really, really annoying and out of place now (though I like his personality), the multiple james voice is nauseating, and mangini's drum sound is absolutely retarded. DT wants to be so traditional, so "DT sounding" that they end up sounding really meh and not memorable. The last good DT album was Octavarium, and even then it was getting kind of overdone and tedious. I really tried to like this album, but my disdain for it somehow outgrew and beat my obsession with DT. 

You can't hear Myung? Are you listening to this through your smartphone speaker?

LOL! Even I can hear Myung from a smartphone speaker.

I didnt literally mean myung was inaudible, I meant he's still way too back in the mix, which is 50% guitar. The only parts that I could remember was during guitar solo in TLG, and a few random parts in EM.

Then you didn't listen hard enough. There's a part in Illumination Theory that's literally just bass and drums. And that's just one example.

Yeah I respect his opinion about not liking the album, but saying that he can't hear Myung is quite pushing it. There's no DT album where Myung cuts like that through the mix.

And JP is not doing his "look at me I play fast" all the time. He's pretty restrained in this album.

[gabeh1018]

I wouldn't say simpler
I just don't think he's written a memorable solo since a Rite of Passage/the Best of Times

it's hard to explain, it's like his phrasing in combination with his new lead tone, doesn't do it for me nowadays
Does anyone else know where I am coming from?

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I don't think ADToE was relatively more simple.

[Kotowboy]

The tickle section on Lost, Not Forgotten is probably more complex than anything on the entirety of Octavarium.

But Long/fast/technical does not mean better.

Octavarium is probably their "simplest" album but it's by far my favourite.

[wasteland]

I don't care if it's become simpler, I still enjoy it. He's been superb in The Looking Glass, TBP, Along For The Ride, the whole album! I understand some of the critiques many people have with his playing on DT, but it's really been an highlight of this record for me, so I would say his playing is just fine

[?]

To echo what others have said, I don't think JP's playing has necessarily become more simple, but stylistically it's less diverse nowadays.

[RaiseTheKnife]

No, his riffs and solos are more challenging.  Have you tried playing Lost Not Forgotten?  It is a beast.

[orcus116]

I personally don't care about technicality. Now, does it sound good?

[Tis BOOLsheet]

If the new album's guitar playing sounds relatively "simpler" it's likely because of the overall direction the band wanted to go in.

[Nearmyth]

I think SDOIT is where his guitar solos just turned into "shred-those-arpeggios-like-there's-no-tomorrow" and became, imo, less memorable. There are exceptions though, suchas BAI. The guitar solos are DT12 are interesting, I can't really tell if they're good or bad. They're different, that's for sure, but for example I just can't tell if the Rush-esque Surrender To Reason guitar solo is musical mastery or just mindless wankery. The BTV and IT guitar solos are great though.

[jakepriest]

I think there are plenty of memorable solos after SDOIT. Octavarium has the least amount of memorable solos for me.

Also I can't stand the Surrender to Reason guitar solo. To me it just sounds like pointless scratching with no tones or musical value behind it, but that's just me.

[BlobVanDam]

I think SDOIT is where his guitar solos just turned into "shred-those-arpeggios-like-there's-no-tomorrow" and became, imo, less memorable. There are exceptions though, suchas BAI.

His solos from SDOIT forward have at least as memorable, if not more so. Shred solos are definitely not the rule, and there are a ton of exceptions to shredding arpeggios. Even when he does, JP is able to do it in a very memorable way. Take the TGP arp solo for example. It's literally nothing but shredding arpeggios, and it's amazing!
Just off the top of my head, there's Blind Faith, Goodnight Kiss, Solitary Shell, TROAE, These Walls, Sacrificed Sons, Octavarium, Repentance, Wither, TBOT, TCOT, TITL. A lot of his relatively recent solos have been among his most melodic and well thought out.
Soloing has always been one of JP's greatest strengths, even when the rest of the music isn't as strong.

[?]

Soloing has always been one of JP's greatest strengths, even when the rest of the music isn't as strong.

QFT

[rude boy]

I get a feeling that most people equal complicated with good and creative, and simple with bad and uncreative.

[nikatapi]

I get a feeling that most people equal complicated with good and creative, and simple with bad and uncreative.

Probably it's because JP's playing has become mostly metal oriented, instead of the more diverse style he used to have, mixing jazz, rock, metal. Now it's mostly riffing, and some acoustic playing on the softer songs.

[kirksnosehair]

Wankery has such negative connotations as a description of play style. 

Honestly, being able play some of the stuff that gets a reputation for being 'musical wankery' is actually not easily accomplished. And to be able to improvise and have knowledge of the scale structures and chord progressions that you're working around at those speeds is nothing short of incredible. I know it's probably not exactly news to anyone, but it truly is impressive to actually play and I know it's not what some people are used to, and depending on your mood, certain music like this can be a bit too intense, but I can be blown away by some of these 'fast' section, it tears by brain open and I'm just shocked at what I've heard.

And I'm not just talking like: play really fast to show ur m@d skillz. I'm talking about fast stuff that is actually well formed and well composed. It just blows my mind when I hear certain passages like: Tickle section of Lost Not Forgotten, guitar/keyboard solo in Constant Motion/A Rite of Passage and just really focus in on that stuff, it's so hard to keep up with the notes that your brain almost explodes and I get a huge adrenalin rush.  I guess my point was, the term 'wankery' almost feels like it detours the potential of ones perception from what something can truly be. Not to mention limiting to have as a framework for appreciating music.

Most of the time when I read or hear the terms "mindless shredding" or "needless wankery" in reference to a John Petrucci solo I generally do this:     The majority of the solos he plays are pretty well planned in advance.


He's got more than a few solos that are over the top and contain a bit more of that blazing fast shredding than some people may like, but most of his solos are quite thoroughly orchestrated, as you noted, Rodni

[LTE3]

Just wanted to raise a question on this subject.
I'm not asking if "Petrucci has become worse playing guitar".
I'm asking if you think that "Petrucci guitar playing in Dream Theater albums has gotten more simpler and not as complicated/creative as before".

IMHO,  Petrucci's guitar playing on the early 90's was way more creative and cooler than nowadays.  Nowadays his playing is more straightforward than before. For example , "Take The Time"  has a lot happening guitar wise;  Funky playing, Cool solos etc.

But yeah, I still think that Petrucci does lots of cool stuff on the latest albums. I don't want you guys to think that IMO everything he does nowadays is "simpler".

You make some valid points, I think in years past he used to solo with a more bluesy feel and took his time, at time since ToT I feel he has lost a little feel and emotion in his soloing which I really miss. I think he has gotten technically better and faster but for me that has not equated to better and has had the opposite effect. It's a similar feel I get when I listen to Mike Mangini, he is technically better than Mike Portnoy but for me that groove, and emotion is missing from his playing.

So, What is Your opinion?  

Peace!

[LTE3]

 I think in years past he used to solo with a more bluesy feel and took his time, at time since ToT I feel he has lost a little feel and emotion in his soloing which I really miss. I think he has gotten technically better and faster but for me that has not equated to better and has had the opposite effect. It's a similar feel I get when I listen to Mike Mangini, he is technically better than Mike Portnoy but for me that groove, and emotion is missing from his playing.

So bottom line for me is more simple? maybe not, but less feel and emotion yes but it's not bad just not as interesting or as fun to watch live. Years ago live you would always see him with a nice long finger stretch solo, now he seems to do more wailing with just three fingers within 3-4 frets.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I think in years past he used to solo with a more bluesy feel and took his time, at time since ToT I feel he has lost a little feel and emotion in his soloing which I really miss. I think he has gotten technically better and faster but for me that has not equated to better and has had the opposite effect. It's a similar feel I get when I listen to Mike Mangini, he is technically better than Mike Portnoy but for me that groove, and emotion is missing from his playing.

So bottom line for me is more simple? maybe not, but less feel and emotion yes but it's not bad just not as interesting or as fun to watch live. Years ago live you would always see him with a nice long finger stretch solo, now he seems to do more wailing with just three fingers within 3-4 frets.

The solos on ToT reflected the style of that particular album which, front start to finish, is unlike any other DT album; so I don't think they reflect an overall direction of the past decade. There's been quite a bit of diversity in JP's guitar solos since Train of Thought and I don't think your generalization that since that point he doesn't "take his time" or play "bluesy" is anything more than that: a generalization.

The solo on BAI is about as bluesy as JP gets and it certain sounds like he took his sweet time before building into a climax and showing off his alternate picking technique. That solo contrasted with the one on LNF, which was a hat tip to the UAGM solo (from the alleged bluesy leisurely days). BCSL contained one of his best most well thought-out guitar solos on the Best of Times-- not to mention the shorter intro solo. How those solos did not convey "emotion" and capture the "feel" of that song is a mystery I'm curious to hear explained. I could go on and on about the great solos JP has had over the past 10 years and their diversity. The point is that the past 10 years since ToT have shown all different types of solos (as did the first 10 years) with different feels and degrees of technical difficulty and speed. I'm not even touching the drumming comment.

That JP has gotten better technically is about the only thing I can substantiate from your post.

[Mosh]

I think there are plenty of memorable solos after SDOIT. Octavarium has the least amount of memorable solos for me.

Well that's kinda unfair, Octavarium doesn't have very many solos in the first place.

The only album I can think of where JP's solos are not so good is Black Clouds. The first half, at least. ANTR and AROP might just have my least favorite solos, by JP and JR. The soloing on TBOT and The Count is great though, you can tell he gave a fuck about those songs.

[erwinrafael]

I think in years past he used to solo with a more bluesy feel and took his time, at time since ToT I feel he has lost a little feel and emotion in his soloing which I really miss. I think he has gotten technically better and faster but for me that has not equated to better and has had the opposite effect. It's a similar feel I get when I listen to Mike Mangini, he is technically better than Mike Portnoy but for me that groove, and emotion is missing from his playing.

So bottom line for me is more simple? maybe not, but less feel and emotion yes but it's not bad just not as interesting or as fun to watch live. Years ago live you would always see him with a nice long finger stretch solo, now he seems to do more wailing with just three fingers within 3-4 frets.

The solos on ToT reflected the style of that particular album which, front start to finish, is unlike any other DT album; so I don't think they reflect an overall direction of the past decade. There's been quite a bit of diversity in JP's guitar solos since Train of Thought and I don't think your generalization that since that point he doesn't "take his time" or play "bluesy" is anything more than that: a generalization.

The solo on BAI is about as bluesy as JP gets and it certain sounds like he took his sweet time before building into a climax and showing off his alternate picking technique. That solo contrasted with the one on LNF, which was a hat tip to the UAGM solo (from the alleged bluesy leisurely days). BCSL contained one of his best most well thought-out guitar solos on the Best of Times-- not to mention the shorter intro solo. How those solos did not convey "emotion" and capture the "feel" of that song is a mystery I'm curious to hear explained. I could go on and on about the great solos JP has had over the past 10 years and their diversity. The point is that the past 10 years since ToT have shown all different types of solos (as did the first 10 years) with different feels and degrees of technical difficulty and speed. I'm not even touching the drumming comment.

That JP has gotten better technically is about the only thing I can substantiate from your post.

This. What a fake mystery. BAI solo not having any emotion or bluesy feel? The outro to Illumination Theory not having any emotion? The riffing in the ending third of The BIgger PIcture not having any emotion?

It's like people not feeling the groove from MIke Mangini's drums. Really? When people are predispositioned to always hold the earlier days of DT as ALWAYS the better sound, then maybe they really go deaf and not hear emotions and grooves or other mystical mumbo jumbo that they can not explain.

[mikeyd23]

Count me in on the side that thinks JP's solos over the last 10 years have been great! Sure, I see a stylistic change, but the creativity, emotion, melody, technicality, shred, etc... are all still present in his more recent work.

Sure most of the solos on ToT were pretty technical shred solos, but that's what the music called for.  As others have already started to do, just to name a few standout, Post-ToT, emotional and/or interesting and varied JP solos:

These Walls
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Repentance
The Ministry of Lost Souls
The Best of Times
The Count of Tuscany
This is the Life
Breaking All Illusions
The Bigger Picture
Surrender to Reason
Illumination Theory

And those are just off the top of my head... Some amazing solos in that list and none of them are straight up, all shred, all technical solos.

[jakepriest]

Surrender to Reason solo is a straight up BAD solo.

[mikeyd23]

Surrender to Reason solo is a straight up BAD solo.

I'm talking about the nice little melodic solo (the first guitar solo, not the second) at the 2:32 mark.  Real nice little melodic guitar lead.

[Cable]

I think there are plenty of memorable solos after SDOIT. Octavarium has the least amount of memorable solos for me.

Well that's kinda unfair, Octavarium doesn't have very many solos in the first place.

The only album I can think of where JP's solos are not so good is Black Clouds. The first half, at least. ANTR and AROP might just have my least favorite solos, by JP and JR. The soloing on TBOT and The Count is great though, you can tell he gave a fuck about those songs.

I love AROP's solo. The second part of his solo with the sweeps where the riff changes gives me this jazz fusion type feel. And although I consider it a riff, the chorus lead line is wonderful IMO.

[Vipmetal]

He used to have less distortion in his lead sound in the good old days? I don't know if that's true but back in the Ibanez days he had more clean and spanky sound and little more funky style leads... ?

[Mosh]

I think there are plenty of memorable solos after SDOIT. Octavarium has the least amount of memorable solos for me.

Well that's kinda unfair, Octavarium doesn't have very many solos in the first place.

The only album I can think of where JP's solos are not so good is Black Clouds. The first half, at least. ANTR and AROP might just have my least favorite solos, by JP and JR. The soloing on TBOT and The Count is great though, you can tell he gave a fuck about those songs.

I love AROP's solo. The second part of his solo with the sweeps where the riff changes gives me this jazz fusion type feel. And although I consider it a riff, the chorus lead line is wonderful IMO.

The second part is good, I'll give you that. Can't stand the first part and that whole solo section just seems forced and uninspired.

[LCArenas]

I wouldn't say that it's simpler. In fact, it's anything but simpler. It's still pretty amazing.

As it has been said before, I think is less diverse, more Metal-Oriented, specially since ToT. You don't see things like the TTT solo or the or UAGM solo. There has definitely been a glimpse of diversity, take the amazing BAI solo, the Misunderstood solo, or the Octavarium intro; but it has definitely gone to the metal direction lately.

[LTE3]

Two of John's most famous and memorable solo's are on Images and Words  in Under a Glass Moon, and Learning to Live. What creates a memorable solo one that is fast and technical or one with feeling, emotion, and varying cool parts? Joh'n playing is certainly not simpler and from ToT on I can sight many many solo's I love, but still like many of the songs on I & W, his solo's on those songs are the most recognizable period.

[OsMosis2259]

Count me in on the side that thinks JP's solos over the last 10 years have been great! Sure, I see a stylistic change, but the creativity, emotion, melody, technicality, shred, etc... are all still present in his more recent work.

Sure most of the solos on ToT were pretty technical shred solos, but that's what the music called for.  As others have already started to do, just to name a few standout, Post-ToT, emotional and/or interesting and varied JP solos:

These Walls
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Repentance
The Ministry of Lost Souls
The Best of Times
The Count of Tuscany
This is the Life
Breaking All Illusions
The Bigger Picture
Surrender to Reason
Illumination Theory

And those are just off the top of my head... Some amazing solos in that list and none of them are straight up, all shred, all technical solos.

Pretty much how I feel as well. I personally would switch Surrender to Reason with Behind the Veil... I think that's his best solo on DT12 IMO

[mikeyd23]

Count me in on the side that thinks JP's solos over the last 10 years have been great! Sure, I see a stylistic change, but the creativity, emotion, melody, technicality, shred, etc... are all still present in his more recent work.

Sure most of the solos on ToT were pretty technical shred solos, but that's what the music called for.  As others have already started to do, just to name a few standout, Post-ToT, emotional and/or interesting and varied JP solos:

These Walls
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Repentance
The Ministry of Lost Souls
The Best of Times
The Count of Tuscany
This is the Life
Breaking All Illusions
The Bigger Picture
Surrender to Reason
Illumination Theory

And those are just off the top of my head... Some amazing solos in that list and none of them are straight up, all shred, all technical solos.

Pretty much how I feel as well. I personally would switch Surrender to Reason with Behind the Veil... I think that's his best solo on DT12 IMO

Yep! I think Behind the Veil's solo is great as well, but I was trying to list examples of JP solos on recent albums that were more melodic or emotional and less technical and shred-based.  I was on the fence about including BtV on that list I posted, but since its primarily a faster style solo, I didn't. 

Regardless, it is a killer solo!  IMO, one of his best in a long time! 

[antigoon]

Not really, but his tone has gotten way worse. So processed-sounding these days.