Author Topic: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.  (Read 1301 times)

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Offline El JoNNo

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Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« on: December 22, 2013, 10:47:37 AM »
https://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2013/12/20/255825383/uganda-passes-anti-gay-bill-that-includes-life-in-prison

Quote
Uganda's Parliament ignored Western criticism and passed a bill on Friday that punishes acts of homosexuality with prison terms that can include life in prison.

The bill has been a source of controversy for years. Western governments and leaders, including President Obama, have criticized the measure, which President Yoweri Museveni must sign for it to take effect.

The Anti-Homosexuality Bill, it's actual name, also makes it a crime to "promote" homosexuality, which could mean simply offering HIV counseling.

It also makes it a crime punishable by five years in prison for renting an apartment to an LGBT person and not informing on your tenant to authorities.

"It's trying to make it impossible for people to have private lives," says Jessica Stern, executive director of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, based in New York.

"If you're perceived to be LGBT, no one's going to rent to you, for fear of their own criminal responsibility," she adds. "So if this law is enacted in its current form, it's basically a homelessness sentence for LGBT Ugandans."

Giles Muhame, managing editor of the Ugandan publication Rolling Stone, holds up a November 2010 issue of the newspaper in Kampala, after it published the names and photos of 14 men it identified as gay.i
Giles Muhame, managing editor of the Ugandan publication Rolling Stone, holds up a November 2010 issue of the newspaper in Kampala, after it published the names and photos of 14 men it identified as gay.

AFP/AFP/Getty Images
The bill was composed with the help of American evangelical leaders who have close ties to the authors and promoters of the bill in Uganda.

"There are these factions of the evangelical community in the U.S. that believe they've more or less lost the fight against the homosexual agenda," says Malika Zouhali Worrall, who co-directed the documentary Call Me Kuchu. Kuchu is a word for "queer" in Uganda. "Therefore they're trying to pre-empt it in other countries."

A Controversy For Years

When the bill was first introduced in 2009, it was dubbed the "Kill the Gays Bill" because of its death penalty provision. That was later removed, but it galvanized the LGBT community in Uganda, which mobilized international support and took on a cautious public role in Uganda.

Members of the community launched lawsuits fighting discrimination. Despite persecution and homophobic attacks, people kept speaking out. They even celebrated Pride Day with discreet but joyous gatherings this summer. Now those well-known activists could be thrown in prison.

"We've been betrayed. This is not a place we can call home," says activist John Wambere. He says the Ugandan LGBT community is discussing how to best approach Museveni, who has yet to sign the bill into law.

They're also trying to figure out how to stay safe in a country where mob attacks are commonplace. Wambere says that just a few weeks ago he heard some people on his street talking about him.

"They were like, 'These are the people when the law passes, we shall deal with them,' " Wambere said.

The bill puts Museveni in a bind. Western countries have threatened to withhold financial aid if the bill goes through. But the bill has wide public support in the country.

Frederick Golooba Mutebi, a columnist for the newspaper The East African, says it will be easier for the president to reject a second bill passed in Parliament on Friday. That measure outlaws miniskirts and other "suggestive" clothing.

"So I think since he has two things, he may trade one for the other one. And I can see him blocking the law against miniskirts and not the one against homosexuality," says Mutebi.

Both laws were celebrated today in some Ugandan newspaper editorials as "Christmas gifts" to the country.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 11:12:26 AM »
Isn't this actually an improvement? I thought they were talking about hanging gay people a few years ago.

Still, as stupid as this is, it's their country. They're not the first people to pass hateful, bigoted laws and they won't be the last. Hell, we imprisoned gay people up until 2003.
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Offline millahh

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 11:30:17 AM »
It might technically be an improvement over the government hanging them, but the bill all but endorses mob action against homosexuals... many will likely die more rapid and brutal deaths at the hands of the mobs than as a result of any judicial action.

And as far as the US evangelicals supporting this, it makes me wish there were such a thing as hell, so they could have a nice warm surprise waiting for them...
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 12:12:23 PM »
Well, it remains to be seen if it'll actually work this way, but at least extrajudicial punishment might be actionable. Furthermore, I think Uganda has a long history of mob justice, so I'm not sure that any tacit endorsement of anti-homosexual action will change much. In fact, the government acting against them might actually deter the perceived need for vigilantism.

To be clear, I think this is a stupid and hateful move by a backwards-ass people. I'm just not sure it would work out to be as awful as it first seems.

And are there US evangelicals openly supporting this?
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Offline Lucien

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 01:07:49 PM »
Well, it remains to be seen if it'll actually work this way, but at least extrajudicial punishment might be actionable. Furthermore, I think Uganda has a long history of mob justice, so I'm not sure that any tacit endorsement of anti-homosexual action will change much. In fact, the government acting against them might actually deter the perceived need for vigilantism.

To be clear, I think this is a stupid and hateful move by a backwards-ass people. I'm just not sure it would work out to be as awful as it first seems.

And are there US evangelicals openly supporting this?

These evangelicals boil my blood. Talk about hypocritical. I'm not going to go into all of my beliefs regarding homosexuals, but they certainly don't put them in hell as these people would, even though the point of evangelism is to get people to heaven. Truly awful.

And their use of the term "homosexual agenda" is sickening. It's like they think homosexuals want to spread their sexuality, like a disease.

 :tdwn

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Offline millahh

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 02:30:46 PM »
The far-less drastic Russian anti-gay law has emboldened mobs in beating/killing gays, I would expect it would be a similar, but amplified, effect here.

EDIT:  Also, if they're homeless (as anyone even expected to be gay will become), they will become very, very easy targets, and the violence will be almost impossible to track.

Regarding US support, from Wikipedia (I've seen the same thing written up elsewhere, this is just more concise):
Quote
From 5 to 8 March 2009, a workshop took place in Kampala, the capital of Uganda, that featured three American evangelical Christians: Scott Lively, an author who has written several books opposing homosexuality; Caleb Lee Brundidge, a self-professed former gay man who conducts sessions to heal homosexuality; and Don Schmierer, a board member of Exodus International, an organisation devoted to promoting "freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ". The theme of the conference, according to The New York Times, was the "gay agenda": "how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how 'the gay movement is an evil institution' whose goal is 'to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity' ".An Anglican priest from Zambia named Kapya Kaoma was in attendance, and reported on the conference. Ugandan Stephen Langa organised it, and was supported by Lively, who asserted in his workshops that homosexuality was akin to child molestation and bestiality, and causes higher rates of divorce and HIV transmission. Lively's emphasis was on the cohesion of the African family, that he said was being threatened by "homosexuals looking to recruit youth into their ranks". According to Kaoma, during the conference, one of the thousands of Ugandans in attendance announced, "[The parliament] feels it is necessary to draft a new law that deals comprehensively with the issue of homosexuality and...takes into account the international gay agenda... Right now there is a proposal that a new law be drafted."

Note also that some of the (slightly) more mainstream evangelical groups, such as FRC, actively lobbied to tone down and arrow the language of congress's condemnation of the law.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 04:16:10 PM by millahh »
Quote from: parallax
WHEN WILL YOU ADRESS MY MONKEY ARGUMENT???? NEVER???? THAT\' WHAT I FIGURED.:lol

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 11:51:13 AM »
The Evangelical guys helped compose the bill? It says they lost the battle here in america, so they're pushing their agenda in other countries they know would abolish homosexuality. Its their country so they can pass laws it so pleases, but the law being composed with the help of American evangelicas is what irks me. But also as all gov'ts are corrupt,  they'd rather kill them off instead of talking about how they can deal with the situation if they feel it might deplete the family vaules of their culture.
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Offline Ruba

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 01:31:13 PM »
This is horrible. I believe that two adult people should have the right the love each other, regardless of their sexes.

And their use of the term "homosexual agenda" is sickening. It's like they think homosexuals want to spread their sexuality, like a disease.

 :tdwn

Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.
But if we use the bigger cart to put them in the corral, then that IS a cart being used as a cart, thus moving around the philosophical dilemma that TAC wasn't sure how to articulate. So the prime mover becomes us, and we become our own gods.

Offline Chino

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 03:30:36 PM »
This is disgusting and shameful.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 05:28:59 PM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 08:44:45 PM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.
Becoming aware that you're gay is not the same as being turned gay. If a person is "on the fence," then I'd consider them gay. Social tolerance will only make them come to grips with it better, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 08:48:39 PM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.
Becoming aware that you're gay is not the same as being turned gay. If a person is "on the fence," then I'd consider them gay. Social tolerance will only make them come to grips with it better, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

I agree, it's why put homosexual acts as opposed to creating homosexuals. I also don't think its a bad thing; just pointing it out.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2013, 09:26:20 AM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.


No, it's not.  The so-called "evidence" stemming from incarcerated individuals who take part in homosexual acts is NOT evidence of sexual orientation being a learned behavior.  It IS evidence that when you place a very large group of male human beings in a penal environment for extended lengths of time, there will be homosexual encounters with both willing and unwilling participants.  Basically, about 95% of homosexual encounters in a prison setting are rape, not consensual.


Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2013, 10:07:25 AM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.


No, it's not.  The so-called "evidence" stemming from incarcerated individuals who take part in homosexual acts is NOT evidence of sexual orientation being a learned behavior.  It IS evidence that when you place a very large group of male human beings in a penal environment for extended lengths of time, there will be homosexual encounters with both willing and unwilling participants.  Basically, about 95% of homosexual encounters in a prison setting are rape, not consensual.

So you're saying that the rapist isn't taking part in a homosexual act? It also happens plenty in women's prisons as well. I'm certainly not saying that the majority of prisoners that take part in sex are doing so because they've been turned. I'm saying that its not abnormal like it is outside.

The more it's the norm and the less taboo it is, you'll find more and more people taking part in homosexual acts, regardless of sexual orientation. There will be those that may not have been attracted to the same sex in the slightest that will have those eye opening experiences that lead them to enjoying it. Its happened before and it will start happening a lot more. That is a learned behavior.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2013, 11:06:35 AM »
Rape is not a sexual act of any sort.

No, it's not.  The so-called "evidence" stemming from incarcerated individuals who take part in homosexual acts is NOT evidence of sexual orientation being a learned behavior.  It IS evidence that when you place a very large group of male human beings in a penal environment for extended lengths of time, there will be homosexual encounters with both willing and unwilling participants.  Basically, about 95% of homosexual encounters in a prison setting are rape, not consensual.
Now that's interesting. I wonder if it's relative to the type of prison and the location, because I've heard exactly the opposite, as well. In a recent interview with a CCA PoS, he was of the opinion that there were more than enough people willing to be a bitch that consensual was about the only variety they ever came across. I suppose that might also just mean that in the state he worked they did a much better job of controlling power struggles and keeping aggression in check.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Ruba

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2013, 11:08:33 AM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.
Becoming aware that you're gay is not the same as being turned gay. If a person is "on the fence," then I'd consider them gay. Social tolerance will only make them come to grips with it better, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

I agree with EB. No straight men/women go gay suddenly when homosexuality is accepted in society. Probably there is some older interest towards the same sex in the background. But I agree that some closet cases certainly will step out when they know they are not being harassed.
But if we use the bigger cart to put them in the corral, then that IS a cart being used as a cart, thus moving around the philosophical dilemma that TAC wasn't sure how to articulate. So the prime mover becomes us, and we become our own gods.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2013, 12:32:40 PM »
Exactly. Sexual identity isn't contagious.

I agree with what you mean by this, however, it kind of is. The biggest evidence to this is the prison populous. I would imagine that the more homosexuals becoming public the more people who are on the fence of sexuality will perform homosexual acts.


No, it's not.  The so-called "evidence" stemming from incarcerated individuals who take part in homosexual acts is NOT evidence of sexual orientation being a learned behavior.  It IS evidence that when you place a very large group of male human beings in a penal environment for extended lengths of time, there will be homosexual encounters with both willing and unwilling participants.  Basically, about 95% of homosexual encounters in a prison setting are rape, not consensual.

So you're saying that the rapist isn't taking part in a homosexual act? It also happens plenty in women's prisons as well. I'm certainly not saying that the majority of prisoners that take part in sex are doing so because they've been turned. I'm saying that its not abnormal like it is outside.

The more it's the norm and the less taboo it is, you'll find more and more people taking part in homosexual acts, regardless of sexual orientation. There will be those that may not have been attracted to the same sex in the slightest that will have those eye opening experiences that lead them to enjoying it. Its happened before and it will start happening a lot more. That is a learned behavior.


I'll make one final point on this facet of the topic, and then I'll move on. 


Quote from: wikipedia

There is no consensus among scientists about why a person develops a particular sexual orientation;[1] however, biologically-based theories for the cause of sexual orientation are favored by experts,[3] which point to genetic factors, the early uterine environment, or both in combination.[4] There is no substantive evidence which suggests parenting or early childhood experiences play a role when it comes to sexual orientation;[4] when it comes to same-sex sexual behavior, shared or familial environment plays no role for men and minor role for women.[5] While some hold the view that homosexual activity is unnatural,[6][7] research has shown that homosexuality is an example of a normal and natural variation in human sexuality and is not in and of itself a source of negative psychological effects.[1][8] Most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.[1] There is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation.[9]


Pretty much the entire psychological and medical communities classify homosexuality as an orientation.  Guys don't wake up one day and make a decision that they would like to try being gay.  They either ARE born with homosexual tendencies, or they ARE NOT born with homosexual tendencies.  Homosexual tendencies are not learned.  Nobody "teaches" any guys to become sexually aroused by other guys.  You either ARE sexually aroused by other guys, or you ARE NOT sexually aroused by other guys. It's not something that is "learned" anymore than being born with blue eyes is something you learn. 


Look, no offense intended, but it's pretty clear to me based on your comments about homosexuality and prison that you are substantially misinformed on this topic.  I'd suggest try reading some actual peer-reviewed scientific materials on it.   Your comments about how homosexuality is manifested among prison populations is particularly skewed by common misconceptions and just plain old being wrong.









Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2013, 12:43:14 PM »
Rape is not a sexual act of any sort.

No, it's not.  The so-called "evidence" stemming from incarcerated individuals who take part in homosexual acts is NOT evidence of sexual orientation being a learned behavior.  It IS evidence that when you place a very large group of male human beings in a penal environment for extended lengths of time, there will be homosexual encounters with both willing and unwilling participants.  Basically, about 95% of homosexual encounters in a prison setting are rape, not consensual.
Now that's interesting. I wonder if it's relative to the type of prison and the location, because I've heard exactly the opposite, as well. In a recent interview with a CCA PoS, he was of the opinion that there were more than enough people willing to be a bitch that consensual was about the only variety they ever came across. I suppose that might also just mean that in the state he worked they did a much better job of controlling power struggles and keeping aggression in check.


But this is where I think a lot of people make a whole bunch of assumptions based on their totally twisted understanding of what prison life is really like.  It's not like you see in the movies.   The vast majority of those people who are "willing to be a bitch" are either already homosexual in orientation, or in mortal fear for their lives and just doing what needs to be done in order to survive.  Humans are extremely adaptable in stressful/dangerous situations.   The survival instinct can lead to all kinds of behavior that would otherwise be off the table for most.  For example, I've never, ever, in my entire (almost) 50 years on this planet felt any kind of desire or urge to stab someone with a sharpened piece of a license plate fashioned into a weapon.  I'd never even consider such a thing.  But I did it in prison.  Three times in 16 years.  Got charged with mayhem in one case because I put the blade through a dude's face and disfigured him for life.  I fucking hate that I had to resort to such a thing, but it was either him or me.  Faced with that inevitability I did what was necessary to survive another day.  A very, very high percentage of homosexual encounters in prison occur under very similar circumstances (e.g. the threat of serious bodily harm or even death).


 

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Anti-gay bill passed in Uganda.
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2013, 12:48:38 PM »
Honestly, yes I voiced an opinion on a subject that I haven't thoroughly studied. Due to this conversation I'll likely not bring up that opinion again. I simply just don't care enough about the subject to dig deeper. Thanks for the insight.  :tup