Illumination Theory vs The Count of Tuscany

[nightmare_cinema]

The Count of Tuscany by a very, very significant margin indeed! I absolutely love everything about that track... the instrumental intro, the ridiculous lyrics, the fact the whole thing evolved out of an innocent encounter and was overblown into this dramatic epic, the atmospheric guitar mid section, the acoustic/piano 'Could this be the end?' section, the guitar solo, and most of all that note at 17:35 in the solo... and the woahs, oh man the woahs. Truly wonderful, one of their best songs, one of my favourite epics, it's up there with ACOS and 8VM for me. Just around when it was released I was writing my undergrad thesis on progressive metal and used this track as an example, wrote a detailed track analysis and everything, it was bliss to sink hours and hours into it!

Illumination Theory on the other hand is good, but leaves me pretty cold overall. It just seems bloated, a bit copy and pasted, like none of the sections really relate that well to one another. Even the instrumental bit after the orchestral section sounds like it quits before it really goes anywhere. And the orchestral section is pretty nice but I can't get away from the fact that it's SO similar to Elgar's s'Alut d'Amour, it's the same notes and everything if I remember rightly, just in a slightly different order I will listen to it and I enjoyed it live but if TCOT is a 9 or 10/10, Illumination Theory so far is only around a 4/10. This may change as songs by DT do grow on me but as the much anticipated epic of the album, it leaves me cold. There is little desire to listen to it on repeat for days like I do with other DT tracks.

As YOWspotter said, TCOT feels like a coherent whole. It takes you on a journey and for me it's a very emotional track (not bad emotions, just those kinda awesome emotions you get when you love a piece of music so much it takes your breath away every time you hear it). IT for me is just... separate chunks strung together that don't really feed into one another all that clearly.

[Anguyen92]

Been listening to both, in recent times, and I'll vote on what I think which is better when there is a karaoke track of Illumination Theory. I already sang The Count of Tuscany, karaoke-style, and I was way off on the timing part.

As for the songs itself, they are both good with both super strong endings.  Tough call to make.

[robwebster]

TCOT, no contest. To me that song is DT's last successful epic.

Funnily, I'm exactly the opposite - I'd say Illumination Theory is DT's first successful epic since Octavarium. ItPoE and TCoT are just (cool!) long songs; IT nails the sense of narrative that ACoS and Octavarium managed before it.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

It's interesting that you think that. To me, while I enjoy IT, it sounds much more disjointed that either ITPOE and TCOT.

[Perpetual Change]

The Count of Tuscany by a very, very significant margin indeed! I absolutely love everything about that track... the instrumental intro, the ridiculous lyrics, the fact the whole thing evolved out of an innocent encounter and was overblown into this dramatic epic, the atmospheric guitar mid section, the acoustic/piano 'Could this be the end?' section, the guitar solo, and most of all that note at 17:35 in the solo... and the woahs, oh man the woahs. Truly wonderful, one of their best songs, one of my favourite epics, it's up there with ACOS and 8VM for me. Just around when it was released I was writing my undergrad thesis on progressive metal and used this track as an example, wrote a detailed track analysis and everything, it was bliss to sink hours and hours into it!

Illumination Theory on the other hand is good, but leaves me pretty cold overall. It just seems bloated, a bit copy and pasted, like none of the sections really relate that well to one another. Even the instrumental bit after the orchestral section sounds like it quits before it really goes anywhere. And the orchestral section is pretty nice but I can't get away from the fact that it's SO similar to Elgar's s'Alut d'Amour, it's the same notes and everything if I remember rightly, just in a slightly different order I will listen to it and I enjoyed it live but if TCOT is a 9 or 10/10, Illumination Theory so far is only around a 4/10. This may change as songs by DT do grow on me but as the much anticipated epic of the album, it leaves me cold. There is little desire to listen to it on repeat for days like I do with other DT tracks.

As YOWspotter said, TCOT feels like a coherent whole. It takes you on a journey and for me it's a very emotional track (not bad emotions, just those kinda awesome emotions you get when you love a piece of music so much it takes your breath away every time you hear it). IT for me is just... separate chunks strung together that don't really feed into one another all that clearly.

Can't really add anything to this, aside from this: The Count of Tuscany does not feel like a long song at all, even though it is. To me, that's one way of really telling how interesting a long song is. If it feels too long, it probably is.

[robwebster]

It's interesting that you think that. To me, while I enjoy IT, it sounds much more disjointed that either ITPOE and TCOT.

Oh, it is!

TCoT flows, but I feel it's a bit like a short song in the body of a long song. The verses and chorus in particular are straight out of something like The Enemy Inside, the ambient section's cool but it's nothing Octavarium didn't do better. I'm not saying it's not good, it's a cracking rock song, it deserves heaps of praise for the intro alone, but it's that intangible difference between a long song and an epic. Illumination Theory is a bit more disjointed - and so's ACoS, for that matter - but like ACoS, Illumination Theory has more ideas in than The Count of Tuscany, and I think they justify its length. It takes the same approximate structure as The Count of Tuscany and does something quite new and interesting with it, it does things that I can't imagine crammed into a shorter track.

ItPoE, again, I think it's a bunch of great short songs in the body of a long song. ItPoE-1, for instance, is an utterly amazing nine-minuter. It's top ten material. ItPoE-1 is hands down the best song on Systematic Chaos, I never listen to it with its sister, always alone, usually into Forsaken. Heretic would be a great single, too - I think another week in the studio could have carved a unique and creepy six minutes out of Heretic.

Illumination Theory, meanwhile, never dwells. It rarely sits still long enough for a phase to grow its own personality separate from the greater whole - and when it finally does pause for breath, the ambience and the beautiful orchestral bit are so vital to the drive and story of the song that it'd take a butcher to split them.

I'm not saying that necessarily transfers to enjoyment, by the way! I think of Six Degrees as more of a long song than an epic, and I prefer it to A Change of Seasons. I prefer In the Name of God to A Change of Seasons, too. And ItPoE part 1. I'm just riffing on rumby's idea that The Count of Tuscany was the band's last successful epic - I'm still not 100% sure what a "true epic" is (except that A Change of Seasons invented the term WRT Dream Theater songs and I think Octavarium probably codified it), but I've never considered The Count of Tuscany to be one. More at home with A Nightmare to Remember than with A Change of Seasons. TCoT achieves many things, but I don't think kinship with ACoS and Octavarium is one of them.

[genome]

Umm... am I the only one who finds the Pink Floyd section in TCOT as out of place in the song as the orchestral section in IT?

[Perpetual Change]

Umm... am I the only one who finds the Pink Floyd section in TCOT as out of place in the song as the orchestral section in IT?

Not me. I actually like The Illumination Theory part better (the ambient section is nicer, and the way the Tchaikovsky thing plays on the main theme of the song later is a nice touch), but the transition to the Cygnus X-1 sounding drum/bass part is a lot more jarring than Tuscany's nice acoustic fade-in. So, TIT has the better ambient section, but it also sounds more out of place. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Best abbreviation ever?

[robwebster]

Umm... am I the only one who finds the Pink Floyd section in TCOT as out of place in the song as the orchestral section in IT?

Pink Floyd section is way more out of place. Even when it's heavy, all piss and vinegar, Illumination Theory is innately symphonic, almost formless, so the orchestra doesn't jar. The ambient bit in TCoT is on the heels of verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo. The transition is golden, it segues into the ambience beautifully, but the section it follows has about the same anatomy as These Walls, so the laid back bit feels like its own story.

The transition to the Cygnus X-1 sounding drum/bass part is a lot more jarring than Tuscany's nice acoustic fade-in.

I knew it reminded me of something. Cygnus X-1! Thank you! Agreed, it is more abrupt.

[Implode]

Same! The light bulb is now on in my head. Thank you.

ps - Nice to see you again, rob.

[Podaar]

Hmmmmm. I always associate that part with The Necromancer not Cygnus X-1...

Brooding in his tower
Watching o'er his lands
Holding every creature
Helplessly they stand


Oh, and the jarring change is what I like the most about it! 

[SeRoX]

I would say IT but I think it's really disjointed as a whole. Can't really get into it much where TCOT does it well for that matter. But again lyrics of TCOT are kind of bad and funny which I don't like about it. So can't decide, both songs have their negative and positive side equally.

But maybe just because of the vocal performance of IT I can prefer it over TCOT.

[theseoafs]

So, TIT has the better ambient section, but it also sounds more out of place.

It's just "Illumination Theory", no "the", which means you shouldn't have to use the word "tit" on this board ever again.

[King Postwhore]

So, TIT has the better ambient section, but it also sounds more out of place.

It's just "Illumination Theory", no "the", which means you shouldn't have to use the word "tit" on this board ever again.

Don't tell Cosmo that.

[theseoafs]

It's interesting that you think that. To me, while I enjoy IT, it sounds much more disjointed that either ITPOE and TCOT.

People throw around this word "disjointed" with regard to IT all the time, and I'm not sure where it comes from.  IMO it has exactly as much cohesion as any of the late-period DT epics, what with all the various melodic reprises, and the lyrical content which is pretty homogenous throughout. 

[bosk1]

But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?"  IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.

[ReaPsTA]

But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?"  IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.

Some are more disjointed than others though.  Scarred moves between a lot of styles, but the emotional throughlines make it all hang together.  The keyboard bonanza in Endless Sacrifice is the same genre as the rest of the song, but it feels too whimsical for a song about how relationship pain.

[bosk1]

I'm not saying there aren't degress of disjointedness.  But just that an element of disjointedness in DT songs is a fairly common element in general.  And that's okay.

[theseoafs]

But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?"  IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.

Well, sure.  DT songs aren't incredibly cohesive in the general case -- which makes complaints about IT's "disjointedness" all the more confusing.  I mean, ACOS might be one of the most disjointed pieces of music ever written -- it pretty much just blasts through a bunch of different soundscapes one by one, rarely backtracking or revisiting a musical idea.  The instrumental break in Metropolis is pretty much the definition of "disjointed".  And these are DT classics. 

[ReaPsTA]

I'm not saying there aren't degress of disjointedness.  But just that an element of disjointedness in DT songs is a fairly common element in general.  And that's okay.

I agree.

[Perpetual Change]

But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?"  IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.

I think it's a toss up. One of the best things about A Dramatic Turn of Events for me is how fluid all the part transitions are, despite all the songs on that album being relatively long and dynamic. There are a few other Dream Theater albums where I think the band accomplish something similar, but for me, on ADTOE in particular, it sounds like they spent a lot on making sure all the different parts and arrangements worked as cohesively as possible. Everything just seems to work perfectly on that one.

EDIT: Another thing about cohesion vs. disjointedness.

When you think about the song, does the whole strike you as greater than the various parts, or are the parts greater than the whole?

If we're talking more recent DT epics, when I think of Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany, I definitely feel like I just enjoy them as whole songs, and that despite some disjointedness, everything feels like it's part of the cohesive whole and belongs together. When I think about In the Presence of Enemies and Illumination Theory, I think of a lot of really cool parts, but they just don't seem as well-glued together.

[ReaPsTA]

To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing.  There are even recurring themes to bind it together.

Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light

The music and lyrics both tell a story.

[robwebster]

I think there's a distinction to be made between abrupt and disjointed. Just cos a change is sudden doesn't mean it's bad - Frost* are a case in point, a Frost* song can flash from Jekyll to Hyde with barely a warning snarl, but those tracks are plotted tight as a drum. It's clearly the same narrative, they just don't waste time on a transition for the sake of a transition if that transition is going to slow the song down. It's a pace thing.

Back to DT - the Full Circle instrumental section, for instance, is erratic, with lots of sudden changes, but I think it's pretty well jointed. It's not some jumble sale of leftover melodies, it's not a hot pot, Full Circle's all direction and drive.

[Perpetual Change]

To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing.  There are even recurring themes to bind it together.

Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light

The music and lyrics both tell a story.

Yeah, I get that. I actually think the songs works well, in "theory" (nugget), but I dunno. I've had trouble with it regardless.

[ReaPsTA]

Back to DT - the Full Circle instrumental section, for instance, is erratic, with lots of sudden changes, but I think it's pretty well jointed. It's not some jumble sale of leftover melodies, it's not a hot pot, Full Circle's all direction and drive.

It knows what it's trying to do.  The song is about the narrator character growing more and more insane.  So you have to get from Full Circle (crazy, disjointed thoughts) to Intervals (the song's culminating moment, with trapped inside this Octavarium sorta being the ultimate horror).  So the instrumental just needs to get more and more twisted and more and more weird and darker and darker and darker.  Even the jingle bells section, while being a little comedic, is so fucking weird sounding that it keeps you in the right headspace.

[Implode]

But in all seriousness, don't you think it is fair to say that a LOT of DT's songs are "disjointed?"  IMO, that's just part of their style, and you either accept/like it, or move on.

I agree. Isn't that a major part of progressive music in general? It doesn't follow the most common song form conventions. It's going to be disjointed a bit of the time. Of course you can disagree with that artistic choice personally, but it's not a bad choice by any means.

[SeRoX]

You know you can name DT's songs as disjointed, especially their epics, maybe like ITPoE or ACOS, TKH and even TCOT. There are some sections can be named disjointed but when you see the bigger picture it gives you the feeling of a "one song" where, IMO, IT does not. I'm not saying it's completely a bad thing.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

To put one example under the lens, the transition between The Embracing Circle and The Pursuit of Truth in IT is, IMO, brilliant, and it's the prime example most will point to when it comes to "disjointedness" in DT.

Yes, it doesn't exactly transition smoothly from one point to the other, but obviously that's not what they were going for. The sudden drop in heaviness increases the drama and the juxtaposition here is fantastic. It comes and punches you with that bass riff and makes you alert. I feel a lot of "disjointedness" in DT is for this purpose.

[Perpetual Change]

Gotta say, I blasted IT on the way home from work, and liked it a lot more than I remember (I probably haven't listened to it since DT12 came out).

Though, I've gotta put this out there, the way "Noble embrace/Lay down our lives for the cause/Death over shame/Grace before glory" goes nowhere and has the momentum pulled right out from under it really is a travesty.

[erwinrafael]

To me Illumination Theory works as a whole thing.  There are even recurring themes to bind it together.

Set up themes
Life is painful
Life can be okay
The truth is painful
But if you embrace that pain, you will see the light

The music and lyrics both tell a story.

I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.

Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.

Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.

Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.

BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.

Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill.  What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.

Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL

Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"

Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"

Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"

Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"

Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"

And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.

----------
This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.

[Rodni Demental]

Well done., Haha. 

[ReaPsTA]

[Illumination Theory Theory]

I like a lot of what you wrote.

For some reason, I missed the Surrender Trust and Passion connection (first four lines about Surrender, next four about Trust, last four about Passion).

Your theory about the song mirroring itself in reverse is pretty compelling.  I also like how, essentially, you present the first half of the song as posing a question, and the second half as presenting an answer.  That's great stuff.  I really like that interpretation.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that Paradoxe is actually important to the structure of the song.  If you don't set up the rock riff under the guitar/keyboard solos, the listener just thinks "Oh, JR and JP need to solo now."  By setting the riff up, you know when the solos kick in that the song's starting to tie everything together.  You know the end is coming.

[erwinrafael]

Thanks. The AHA moment for me was when I finally made sense of the lyrics of The Pursuit of Truth. How do you make "mothers for their children" comparable to "a junkie for the high" and to "money, love and fame?" The word FOR was the clue, because it is what brought me to What are you willing to live FOR? What are you willing to die FOR? What are you willing to kill FOR? And then the lyrics finally made sense. Rebels are willing to live, die and kill FOR their freedom. Victims are willing to live, die and kill to seek vengeance FOR a crime. And the subjectless line seems to suggest that many people are willing to live, die and kill FOR money, love and fame. With that interpretation, all the lines became comparable.

When I realized the question and answer nature of the two sections, that's when I looked for a similar relation in the structures. The repeating riffs finally made sense but I was at first uncertain why one goes before the question and the other goes after the answer. So I looked at the lyrics of Surrender, Trust and Passion and realized that it is a paradox, which refers to the first section which is titled  Paradox of the Black Light. The last section mirrored the first section! So I looked for mirroring patterns. And I found an interpretation that fits a mirror.

As to the un-illuminated side vs. the illuminated side interpretation, the question vs. answer relation was the clue. Then the heavy overture melody vs the orchestral melody.

The last was the more prominent cymbal and hi-hat work in the right speaker in Surrender, Trust and Passion vs. the more prominent cymbal and hi-hat work in the left speaker in the slow section of the Paradox of the Black Light. MM has brighter sounding cymbals on the right side of his kit while the darker sounding metals are on the left. This may already be a bit of stretch but hey, I found a musical reason for MM's use of cymbals. Hahaha.

[GentlemanofDread]

And just like that, Erwinrafael made me love IT that much more. Kudos to you, Sir.