Author Topic: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate  (Read 21302 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2010, 02:11:33 PM »
While that is all true, they're also completely not mentioning the negative effects their publications have, especially the lack of own censorship for information that serves no "truth-uncovering" purposes, but instead only causes diplomatic damage.
Is the world really a better place after exposing embarrassing details about tenuous allies of ours?

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Offline TheVoxyn

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2010, 05:02:24 PM »
I don't believe a word of these sexual harrasment cases. It's all just a bit too convenient to come out now.

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2010, 07:52:33 PM »
So if I understand all this correctly, he hooks up with two girls over a couple of days in Sweden.  This was by all accounts consensual, and one of the girls was essentially a groupy.  Because he: A. wouldn't get checked for STDs after a condom broke, and B. is a creepy little fuck, the young ladies in question went to the cops.  The cops charged him with rape for all of a few hours before figuring out that there was no rape involved and dropping the charges.  Then something called sex by surprise gets thrown into the mix, whateverthefuck that is.  Now, 3 months later they're charging him with rape again for the same encounter.   WTF, Sweden?

I gotta say, this whole thing sounds pretty suspect to me. 
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Online Adami

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2010, 07:54:53 PM »
So if I understand all this correctly, he hooks up with two girls over a couple of days in Sweden.  This was by all accounts consensual, and one of the girls was essentially a groupy.  Because he: A. wouldn't get checked for STDs after a condom broke, and B. is a creepy little fuck, the young ladies in question went to the cops.  The cops charged him with rape for all of a few hours before figuring out that there was no rape involved and dropping the charges.  Then something called sex by surprise gets thrown into the mix, whateverthefuck that is.  Now, 3 months later they're charging him with rape again for the same encounter.   WTF, Sweden?

I gotta say, this whole thing sounds pretty suspect to me. 

That's what happens when you become a celebrity.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2010, 07:55:29 PM »
WIKILEAKS deserves protection, not threats and attacks.
Why does Wikileaks deserve protection?
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Online El Barto

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2010, 08:08:14 PM »
WIKILEAKS deserves protection, not threats and attacks.
Why does Wikileaks deserve protection?

Would you ask the same of a whistle-blower?  What about if the New York Times or [now that Bush is gone] FOX had reported a story about a possible crime and various misconducts?  The crime is with whoever supplied the information.  All he's done is disseminate it.

To actually answer your question, because if you indict him on whatever charges you can throw at him, you might prevent others from disclosing more important but potentially damning information.  A great deal of good has been done in this country by people dropping a dime.
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Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2010, 08:35:39 PM »
So if I understand all this correctly, he hooks up with two girls over a couple of days in Sweden.  This was by all accounts consensual, and one of the girls was essentially a groupy.  Because he: A. wouldn't get checked for STDs after a condom broke, and B. is a creepy little fuck, the young ladies in question went to the cops.  The cops charged him with rape for all of a few hours before figuring out that there was no rape involved and dropping the charges.  Then something called sex by surprise gets thrown into the mix, whateverthefuck that is.  Now, 3 months later they're charging him with rape again for the same encounter.   WTF, Sweden?

I gotta say, this whole thing sounds pretty suspect to me. 

That's what happens when you become a celebrity.

Yup, just like Michael Phelps was fined a huge amount and thrown in prison for smoking pot. Fucking celebrities, how do they work?

wtf is the internet?

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2010, 11:37:19 PM »
WIKILEAKS deserves protection, not threats and attacks.
Why does Wikileaks deserve protection?

Would you ask the same of a whistle-blower?  What about if the New York Times or [now that Bush is gone] FOX had reported a story about a possible crime and various misconducts?  The crime is with whoever supplied the information.  All he's done is disseminate it.

To actually answer your question, because if you indict him on whatever charges you can throw at him, you might prevent others from disclosing more important but potentially damning information.  A great deal of good has been done in this country by people dropping a dime.
He's not a whistle-blower.  He's an asshole.  Why is everyone acting like he has done something noble and good?  He hasn't!
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Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #148 on: December 08, 2010, 12:24:58 AM »
Most anything that encourages free flow of information is good in my book. Especially things of political nature.

Also, am I the only one who finds the name calling in this thread towards Wikileaks and friends a little childish?

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #149 on: December 08, 2010, 12:28:34 AM »
Most anything that encourages free flow of information is good in my book. Especially things of political nature.
Why?  What good did it accomplish?
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #150 on: December 08, 2010, 05:57:47 AM »
Most anything that encourages free flow of information is good in my book. Especially things of political nature.
Why?  What good did it accomplish?

it's about to topple a sinister regime in turkey, so it worked great for us.
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Offline emindead

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #151 on: December 08, 2010, 07:37:58 AM »
Most anything that encourages free flow of information is good in my book. Especially things of political nature.
Why?  What good did it accomplish?
Are you asking solely in the case of the Cables or in their entire history since 2006?

Online El Barto

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #152 on: December 08, 2010, 08:27:20 AM »
WIKILEAKS deserves protection, not threats and attacks.
Why does Wikileaks deserve protection?

Would you ask the same of a whistle-blower?  What about if the New York Times or [now that Bush is gone] FOX had reported a story about a possible crime and various misconducts?  The crime is with whoever supplied the information.  All he's done is disseminate it.

To actually answer your question, because if you indict him on whatever charges you can throw at him, you might prevent others from disclosing more important but potentially damning information.  A great deal of good has been done in this country by people dropping a dime.
He's not a whistle-blower.  He's an asshole.  Why is everyone acting like he has done something noble and good?  He hasn't!
If our State Department has instructed diplomats to become spies, then that's something that should be exposed. 

However, I think I see your concern.  Assange hasn't set out to expose instances of wrong-doing, insomuch as he's just publishing everything he can get his hands on somewhat indiscriminately.  However, his method shouldn't undo the potential good of exposing wrongs.  If he had his staff vet every one of those and only published the most damning ones, then people would be just as upset about his anti-American agenda. 

Out of curiosity, are you as upset with the NYT for publishing the leaks that he's released?  And for that matter, would you have been as annoyed by the release of the Pentagon Papers 50 years ago?  There's actually a pretty strong similarity between the two. 
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Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #153 on: December 08, 2010, 08:30:44 AM »
Quote
He's not a whistle-blower.  He's an asshole.  Why is everyone acting like he has done something noble and good?  He hasn't!

I have to agree that it does seem like he is being idolized by some people. But that doesn't change that he was in a leadership position and that he was likely involved in the publication of leaks whether they were good or bad. Claiming he is just some outraged reckless asshole who hasn't done anything is not a very truthful description.

On another note, unless they can prove he was involved with the acquisition's of the leaked documents directly, wikileaks and Julian Assange are not at fault whatsoever.

https://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/07/26/pentagon-papers-ii-on-wikileaks-and-the-first-amendment/

Quote
The question, as posed by Fred Schauer, a law professor at the University of Virginia, goes like this: “What can be done — and to whom — when information that was originally obtained illegally is then published?”

The most obvious Supreme Court case to spring to mind is the New York Times v. U.S., the famous “Pentagon Papers” case from 1971. In the case, the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment barred the Nixon administration from keeping the New York Times and Washington Post from publishing classified information related to the Vietnam War.

Schauer said the opinion isn’t necessarily “conclusive,” partly because it was issued as a brief “per curiam” decision, and didn’t adopt a categorical rule on when the government might prevent publication of such information. Still, Schauer said that the case, along with two others, Landmark Communications v. Virginia and Bartnicki v. Vopper, “all go in the direction” of dictating that the person at WikiLeaks who got the information would likely elude criminal prosecution or liability unless that person was, said Schauer, “involved in getting the material in the first place.”

Another interesting thing is the position of wikileaks with all of this information. How are they to decide what information is technically good or bad? Sure you can do what we are doing and try and fathom the positive and negative effects the best we can, but I think a far more efficient route is to just release whatever you get on the principle of being a whistleblower and let the rest of the news media and world governments come to their own conclusions about what needs to be done. Not to mention that issues are usually extremely complicated and you often cannot reveal serious violations of human rights and civil liberties in operations without also revealing something that could be considered a security risk.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #154 on: December 08, 2010, 08:58:18 AM »
Thanks to WikiLeaks and Facebook, I have now discovered that one of my friends is a conspiracy theorist.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2010, 09:46:12 AM »
If our State Department has instructed diplomats to become spies, then that's something that should be exposed. 
Why?

However, I think I see your concern.  Assange hasn't set out to expose instances of wrong-doing, insomuch as he's just publishing everything he can get his hands on somewhat indiscriminately.  However, his method shouldn't undo the potential good of exposing wrongs.  If he had his staff vet every one of those and only published the most damning ones, then people would be just as upset about his anti-American agenda. 
Potential good isn't the same thing as actual good.  And he didn't expose wrongs as much as he exposed things that aren't part of official policy, but are mostly just embarassing, not to mention some actual sensitive material that the public has no right to know. 

Out of curiosity, are you as upset with the NYT for publishing the leaks that he's released?  And for that matter, would you have been as annoyed by the release of the Pentagon Papers 50 years ago?  There's actually a pretty strong similarity between the two. 
Yeah, I'm a little upset with the NYT as well.  But I don't see a comparison between this stuff and the Pentagon Papers.
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Online El Barto

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2010, 10:12:29 AM »
If our State Department has instructed diplomats to become spies, then that's something that should be exposed. 
Why?
Because it's a violation of the law that fucks up diplomacy for everybody, everywhere.  Diplomats are afforded rights and protections specifically because of the understanding that they won't be spies.  Are you of the opinion that allowing a violation of trust to continue is better than exposing it? 

As for the comparison to the Pentagon Papers, they also provided nothing concrete but demonstrated remarkable insight into the inner workings of the war.  This insight bolstered the anti-war people, whose obnoxiousness was key to the decision to withdraw.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #157 on: December 09, 2010, 04:21:02 AM »
If our State Department has instructed diplomats to become spies, then that's something that should be exposed. 
Why?
Because it's a violation of the law that fucks up diplomacy for everybody, everywhere.  Diplomats are afforded rights and protections specifically because of the understanding that they won't be spies.  Are you of the opinion that allowing a violation of trust to continue is better than exposing it? 
No, I'm of the opinion that statecraft isn't that black and white.

As for the comparison to the Pentagon Papers, they also provided nothing concrete but demonstrated remarkable insight into the inner workings of the war.  This insight bolstered the anti-war people, whose obnoxiousness was key to the decision to withdraw.
Yes, it was policy-related.  The vast majority of the wikileak stuff wasn't directily related to actual official policy, but just personal observations of different operatives.  It is just emabarassing, that's all.  No great good was done by this leak of information, just embarassment.

Look, this Julian Assange was a computer hacker, meaning he likes to screw shit up.  That's all this is, as well.  He doesn't have any noble or altruistic motivations, he just likes to start trouble and has found a good way to do it.  He isn't a journalist, he just waits for leaked info to come to him.  I think the rape cases against him are most likely trumped-up, but my opinion of him is quite low.
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Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #158 on: December 10, 2010, 08:51:35 AM »
Cripes

https://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-cables-shell-nigeria-spying

Quote
The oil giant Shell claimed it had inserted staff into all the main ministries of the Nigerian government, giving it access to politicians' every move in the oil-rich Niger Delta, according to a leaked US diplomatic cable.

wtf is the internet?

Offline emindead

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #159 on: December 10, 2010, 05:22:40 PM »
Why do you hate America, ack44?

Like John Hay said in 1880: "We're not anymore a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. This is a government of corporations, for corporations, and by corporations".

But let's kill Assange, please: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d36xEvVnF2I

Offline TheVoxyn

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #160 on: December 10, 2010, 05:30:11 PM »
Why do you hate America, ack44?

Like John Hay said in 1880: "We're not anymore a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. This is a government of corporations, for corporations, and by corporations".

But let's kill Assange, please: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d36xEvVnF2I
Great video.

A very fat dude calling Kim-Jong Il a fat guy and some other guy talking about 'The leader of the free world'. Finally American comedy that is funny.

Offline emindead

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #161 on: December 10, 2010, 05:38:04 PM »
Bob Beckel: "Illegally shoot the son of a bitch." I guess that's the American way!

Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #162 on: December 10, 2010, 08:57:59 PM »
Part of the reason that this WW3 and other BS talk doesn't make me reconsider neoconism is that I'm not seeing much of the negative effects of the releases. There obviously are going to be some negative effects and the people at Wikileaks understand that but they are lacking so far.

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Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #163 on: December 14, 2010, 05:13:04 PM »
Air Force Blocks Access to News Sites That Posted Wikileaks Documents

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/14/air-force-blocks-access-news-sites-posted-wikileaks-documents/

Quote
The U.S. Air Force has blocked access on its network to more than 25 media websites, including the New York Times, that have posted the secret U.S. diplomatic cables published by WikiLeaks...

Other sites that have been blocked include Germany's Der Spiegel, France's Le Monde, Britain's Guardian and Spain's El Pais, Tones said.

FoxNews.com is not one of the blocked sites, she said


Every major news agency ought to be on this list.

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Offline emindead

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #164 on: December 15, 2010, 06:03:22 AM »


:rollin

Offline antigoon

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #165 on: December 15, 2010, 08:20:39 AM »
:lol

Offline XJDenton

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2010, 08:38:44 AM »
:lol Makes a good point.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #167 on: December 15, 2010, 08:54:00 AM »
https://dougsaunders.net/2010/12/wikileaks-cablegate-assange-conspiracy/

Quote
One Assange colleague, echoing views of other WikiLeaks staff who this week broke away to form the more transparent and politically neutral OpenLeaks organization, called him a “naive libertarian,” adding: “He makes the connection between government and conspiracy. He really does think that WikiLeaks is going to change the world.”

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Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #168 on: December 15, 2010, 04:14:04 PM »
I'm pretty excited about this OpenLeaks thing. As some people have pointed out before, its dangerous to have just one major "whistle blower" organization. I see this as being an inevitable consequence of the internet though.

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #169 on: December 15, 2010, 06:52:28 PM »
I prefer OpenLeaks policy on data handling certainly. Far more responsible.
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Offline emindead

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #170 on: December 15, 2010, 09:51:21 PM »
https://dougsaunders.net/2010/12/wikileaks-cablegate-assange-conspiracy/

Quote
One Assange colleague, echoing views of other WikiLeaks staff who this week broke away to form the more transparent and politically neutral OpenLeaks organization, called him a “naive libertarian,” adding: “He makes the connection between government and conspiracy. He really does think that WikiLeaks is going to change the world.”

rumborak
Assange has made clear that he believes that the government acts in a conspiracy. But his definition of conspiracy is not the same as you and I understand it or the term we use it. I'll try to find the article explaining it;the author of what you posted is twisting his words -not surprising.

Yet again, I welcome more whistle-blowing websites. That's the idea.

Edit, found it:
Julian Assange and the Computer Conspiracy; “To destroy this invisible government”

Posted by zunguzungu on November 29, 2010
https://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/julian-assange-and-the-computer-conspiracy-%E2%80%9Cto-destroy-this-invisible-government%E2%80%9D/

Quote from: Assange
To radically shift regime behavior we must think clearly and boldly for if we have learned anything, it is that regimes do not want to be changed. We must think beyond those who have gone before us, and discover technological changes that embolden us with ways to act in which our forebears could not. Firstly we must understand what aspect of government or neocorporatist behavior we wish to change or remove. Secondly we must develop a way of thinking about this behavior that is strong enough carry us through the mire of politically distorted language, and into a position of clarity. Finally must use these insights to inspire within us and others a course of ennobling, and effective action.

    Julian Assange, “State and Terrorist Conspiracies”

The piece of writing (via) which that quote introduces is intellectually substantial, but not all that difficult to read, so you might as well take a look at it yourself. Most of the news media seems to be losing their minds over Wikileaks without actually reading these essays, even though he describes the function and aims of an organization like Wikileaks in pretty straightforward terms. But, to summarize, he begins by describing a state like the US as essentially an authoritarian conspiracy, and then reasons that the practical strategy for combating that conspiracy is to degrade its ability to conspire, to hinder its ability to “think” as a conspiratorial mind. The metaphor of a computing network is mostly implicit, but utterly crucial: he seeks to oppose the power of the state by treating it like a computer and tossing sand in its diodes.

He begins by positing that conspiracy and authoritarianism go hand in hand, arguing that since authoritarianism produces resistance to itself — to the extent that its authoritarianism becomes generally known — it can only continue to exist and function by preventing its intentions (the authorship of its authority?) from being generally known. It inevitably becomes, he argues, a conspiracy:

Quote from: Assange
    Authoritarian regimes give rise to forces which oppose them by pushing against the individual and collective will to freedom, truth and self realization. Plans which assist authoritarian rule, once discovered, induce resistance. Hence these plans are concealed by successful authoritarian powers. This is enough to define their behavior as conspiratorial.

The problem this creates for the government conspiracy then becomes the organizational problem it must solve: if the conspiracy must operate in secrecy, how is it to communicate, plan, make decisions, discipline itself, and transform itself to meet new challenges? The answer is: by controlling information flows. After all, if the organization has goals that can be articulated, articulating them openly exposes them to resistance. But at the same time, failing to articulate those goals to itself deprives the organization of its ability to process and advance them. Somewhere in the middle, for the authoritarian conspiracy, is the right balance of authority and conspiracy.

His model for imagining the conspiracy, then, is not at all the cliché that people mean when they sneer at someone for being a “conspiracy theorist.” After all, most the “conspiracies” we’re familiar with are pure fantasies, and because the “Elders of Zion” or James Bond’s SPECTRE have never existed, their nonexistence becomes a cudgel for beating on people that would ever use the term or the concept. For Assange, by contrast, a conspiracy is something fairly banal, simply any network of associates who act in concert by hiding their concerted association from outsiders, an authority that proceeds by preventing its activities from being visible enough to provoke counter-reaction. It might be something as dramatic as a loose coalition of conspirators working to start a war with Iraq/n, or it might simply be the banal, everyday deceptions and conspiracies of normal diplomatic procedure.

He illustrates this theoretical model by the analogy of a board with nails hammered into it and then tied together with twine:

Quote from: Assange
    First take some nails (“conspirators”) and hammer them into a board at random. Then take twine (“communication”) and loop it from nail to nail without breaking. Call the twine connecting two nails a link. Unbroken twine means it is possible to travel from any nail to any other nail via twine and intermediary nails…Information flows from conspirator to conspirator. Not every conspirator trusts or knows every other conspirator even though all are connected. Some are on the fringe of the conspiracy, others are central and communicate with many conspirators and others still may know only two conspirators but be a bridge between important sections or groupings of the conspiracy…

    Conspirators are often discerning, for some trust and depend each other, while others say little. Important information flows frequently through some links, trivial information through others. So we expand our simple connected graph model to include not only links, but their “importance.”

    Return to our board-and-nails analogy. Imagine a thick heavy cord between some nails and fine light thread between others. Call the importance, thickness or heaviness of a link its weight. Between conspirators that never communicate the weight is zero. The “importance” of communication passing through a link is difficult to evaluate apriori, since its true value depends on the outcome of the conspiracy. We simply say that the “importance” of communication contributes to the weight of a link in the most obvious way; the weight of a link is proportional to the amount of important communication flowing across it. Questions about conspiracies in general won’t require us to know the weight of any link, since that changes from conspiracy to conspiracy.

Such a network will not be organized by a flow chart, nor would it ever produce a single coherent map of itself (without thereby hastening its own collapse). It is probably fairly acephalous, as a matter of course: if it had a single head (or a singular organizing mind which could survey and map the entirety), then every conspirator would be one step from the boss and a short two steps away from every other member of the conspiracy. A certain amount of centralization is necessary, in other words (otherwise there is no conspiracy), but too much centralization makes the system vulnerable.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 06:23:46 AM by emindead »

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #171 on: December 15, 2010, 11:46:24 PM »
Interesting.

Assange probably believed the cable leaks would be the moment WikiLeaks really broke into the mainstream and he would become a powerful force in world politics.  Now he's arrested and large amounts of his staff of leaving to form competing websites.  This wouldn't be bad in-and-of itself, except that more and more people think WikiLeaks has gone too far and will be more likely to support competitors such as Openleaks.

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Offline ack44

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #172 on: December 16, 2010, 06:59:11 AM »
But he could be TIME's person of the year  :azn:

wtf is the internet?

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #173 on: December 16, 2010, 08:22:23 AM »
Except he can't... since it's Facebook. DAMMIT!

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Re: WikiLeaks: Julian Assange Arrested - Cablegate
« Reply #174 on: December 16, 2010, 05:15:43 PM »
WikiLeaks cables: Mervyn King plotted banks bailout by four cash-rich nations
https://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/13/wikileaks-mervyn-king-bank-bailout?DCMP=EMC-thewrap08

Bank of England governor suggested new group of UK, US, Swiss and Japan could facilitate global bailout, cable shows

The Bank of England governor, Mervyn King, was so concerned about the health of the world's banks in March 2008 that he plotted a secret bailout of the system using funds from cash-rich nations, according to a US embassy cable released by WikiLeaks.

Six months before the world financial crisis reached its peak, forcing taxpayers to rescue collapsing financial institutions, King told US officials in London that the UK, US, Switzerland and Japan could jointly enable a multibillion-pound cash injection into global banks, overriding the "dysfunctional" G7 nations.

The leak may allow King to claim that he – rather than Gordon Brown – was one of the brains behind the bailout of the banks, which took place in October 2008.

According to the cable, King told Robert Tuttle, the US ambassador to Britain, and the treasury deputy secretary Robert Kimitt, who was visiting London, that there needed to be a "coordinated effort to possibly recapitalise the global banking system" as well as a way to rid the banks of the toxic loans on their balance sheets.

The ambassador said in the cable, dated March 2008, that King's proposals "were not casual ideas developed in the course of a luncheon conversation. It was clear that his principal objective in the meeting was to outline his outside-the-box thinking for Kimmitt. King suggested that the US, UK, Switzerland and perhaps Japan might form a temporary new group to jointly develop an effort to bring together sources of capital to recapitalise all major banks."

The grouping of the four nations would have been in addition to the 35-year-old G7, which comprises the finance directors of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US. King appeared concerned that the G7 did not include cash-rich China, Singapore and countries in the Middle East that might have been tapped for a global bank bailout.

King said the G7 was "almost dysfunctional on an economic level" as key economies were not included. "It could be a temporary group and he suggested that perhaps the central banks and finance ministers of the US, the UK and Switzerland could coordinate discussions with other countries that have large pools of capital, including sovereign wealth funds, about recycling dollars to recapitalise banks," the cable went on. "King said Japan might not be included because it has little to offer. King noted though that including the Japanese might force their hand in finally marking to market impaired assets."

King had spelt out to the US officials that he was certain the UK's banks would need fresh cash. "He [King] said is it hard to look at the big four UK banks (Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays, HSBC and Lloyds TSB) and not think they need more capital. A coordinated effort among central banks and finance ministers may be needed to develop a plan to recapitalise the banking system."

It seems likely that the banks identified in the cable were provided as examples for Washington rather than named by the governor.

Shortly after the meeting between King and the US officials, leading UK banks began trying to shore up their balance sheets by launching cash calls on their shareholders. RBS stunned the markets in April 2008 by preparing the ground for a £12bn rights issue. HBOS, later rescued by Lloyds, tried – and failed – to raise £4bn from its shareholders, while Bradford & Bingley, later part-nationalised, also tried to raise fresh funds.

By October, RBS, Lloyds and HBOS had all been bailed out by the taxpayer, while Barclays raised funds from Middle Eastern investors and managed to avoid taking a direct injection of funds from taxpayers. HSBC launched a £12.5bn cash call in March 2009 and also avoided any government bailout.

King appeared before the Treasury select committee later in March 2008 and warned MPs that the financial crisis had "moved into a new different phase".

At the 28 March committee session, the governor raised his concerns about the need for fresh capital. He told the committee that the right response to the crisis was to "think very, very deeply about the causes of this crisis and whether levels of bank capital and the sort of financial system that generated this crisis does not require some action".

"I would not be opposed to a process in which the banks would find more capital, I think most central banks would regard that as a very desirable development," King told the MPs.


Well, just colour me shocked that the urgent, have to push this though, now, now, now, now the whole economy depends on it - line was just a lie; banks bailout planned six months in advance!!!