Sound quality of DT...

[jammindude]

Look...I'm not going to go to the other extreme and say it's a sonic masterpiece...

...but I got my official FLAC files through the mail today from Roadrunner...and even after converting to WAV and burning them onto a disc, I still have to say that the album sounds *WORLDS* better than the Soundcloud stream, and much MUCH better than I was led to believe by some of the critics.

Anyone else have the same experience?   Maybe it was better to go in expecting to be as bad as Vapor Trails or the new QR album....because it's definitely better than those albums...by a long shot.

[rumborak]

I got my official FLAC files through the mail today from Roadrunner...and even after converting to WAV and burning them onto a disc, I still have to say...

Erm, just a quick note here, all those operations you mention are lossless conversions. So, by definition, the FLAC files should sound the same as the CD.

[Bolsters]

It's also redundant converting to WAV first because any half-decent piece of software released in the last 10-15 years will have no trouble making an audio disc from FLAC files.

EDIT: Wait, are these the "high quality" FLAC file that came with buying the vinyl? Are the 16/44.1 or 24/96?

[jammindude]

It's also redundant converting to WAV first because any half-decent piece of software released in the last 10 years will have no trouble making an audio disc from FLAC files.

1)  WAV is lossless?  Since when?

2) I only have WM....does not play or convert FLAC files.  (at least mine doesn't)

[rumborak]

1)  WAV is lossless?  Since when?

WAV is raw PCM. It is the definition of lossless, since there is no compression whatsoever. For that reason it's one of the oldest audio file formats in existence because all it is is raw PCM with a header upfront saying what the sampling rate is and the bit depth.

[jammindude]

Well...still doesn't stop the fact that WM doesn't recognize FLAC.

But we're off topic!   

[rumborak]

Sorry, to stay for a moment longer off-topic: Bolsters raises a good point; what's the stats on those FLAC files? If they're just 16/48, then you might as well just rip the CD because that's what's on there.
If they're 24/96, I guess that would justify their existence, even though IMO those high sampling rates have their justification in the signal processing chain during production, not because the human ear can discern the difference.

[theanalogkid7]

EDIT: Wait, are these the "high quality" FLAC file that came with buying the vinyl? Are the 16/44.1 or 24/96?

Yeah, they are 44.1/16. Was hoping for 96/24 or even 192/24.  But I suppose that's what HDTracks is for

[SystematicThought]

The CD does sound much better than the stream, but I never thought it was that bad. Worlds better than ADTOE

[theseoafs]

The CD does sound much better than the SoundCloud stream.  I was pleasantly surprised when I got it in the mail this afternoon. 

The sound still isn't great, though.  It's still realllllyyyy damn loud, which is a bummer because I want to listen to the whole album at once but I get fatigued.

[ariich]

As I posted in the main thread:

Ok so I'm still waiting for my amazon delivery later this week, but the autorip mp3s became available this morning so I downloaded them.

For anyone else who's done this - is it just me or does it sound a bit more compressed than the stream? I'm not sure what it is but it sounds a bit too OTT whereas the stream sounded fine to me.

Has anyone compared the amazon download with the stream, and noticed this problem, and how does this compare with the CD (mine apparently isn't arriving until Friday!).

Also, has anyone listened to the vinyl yet? How does it sound?

[RaiseTheKnife]

Box set with the records arrived today, but i do not have a record player, so I wish I could tell you the difference, but . . .

[IslandInTheMaking]

It's been really interesting to follow the sound quality discussion with this release. I mean I can definetly hear the points that the critics raise, but the extenct that some people go with it (not necessarily on this board, but elsewhere).. i don't know. I just doesn't bother me that much. I'm a new poster in here, so perhaps I should say that I'm a part time audio engineer/sound designer myself and I really like to listen to the production, critique it and pick it apart on every realease I get. To me the mix and the master are a big part of the "personality" of a given album. It's really more like an artistic statement than a technical detail, like some people seen to view it (especially mastering).

It would be really interesting (to me atleast  ) to see how everyone is listening to this album. What format, what system, even the kind of room you're in.  (It really does have a big effect) Plus I'm such gear nerd that I'd love to see your setups.

Now back to the topic...

I finally have the cd quality FLACs from roadrunner (still waiting for my boxset), and as expected the sound has gotten better and better starting from the stream, to spotify and now this. It's loud. That's the first thing that has to be said... But, I think it works really good for most of the songs on this album. It's a really fun, bad ass (like someone here discribed it  ) master. It has an almost physical impact, a puch in your chest. Works really well for metal IMHO. But ofcourse a master this loud has it's problems too. To me it's mostly TBP, STR and AFTR that suffer noticeably (and TLG to an extenct). I would really love to hear those songs on a FII like sound.  And I mean "sound" all the way down to JP's guitar sound. But that's a personal preference and not my choise to make. Overall I think it's an improvement on ADTOE on some areas and really a record that I can enjoy blasting at full volume. 

One final point about listening fatique. I have never had listening fatique caused by a too loud master. But i've had it with mixes that are too heavy on mid range. Somewhere around 800Hz-4kHz. And ofcourse I often have it when working on something for too long.. or with too much volume but that's obvious. I know that's a personal thing and I know a lot of people who are a lot more sensitive to it than me.

[Nefarius]

Got my downloads last night and after no desire to listen to the stream again I had my third full listen with the FLAC files. Of course it's better than the stream but as expected the vocals are still buried in one taxing (brick)wall of compressed sound that's in the way of details and subtleties. I'm getting somewhat used to a few of the songs now but still no clicking moments, most of them still don't feel like actual cohesive songs, still not much love for the album, and also not much hope of it getting better for me in time.

Greetings...
Nef

[soulburner]

I realize DR numbers are not the ultimate factor describing dynamics in music but when it gets as low as 5-6 it is not possible to sound good:
https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46312
I'm waiting for information about how the HDTracks and vinyl releases sound (not just numbers, opinions)!

The overcompressed sound has a huge impact on how people perceive the songs. Many people will say they don't like the album but not because the songs are bad... but because they couldn't focus on them and listen carefuly enough without drifting away or becoming fatigued... I am yet to see (hear) how I react but I'm holding off buying the CD until I find more info about other formats.

Any idea when exactly is the HDTracks release becoming available?

[IslandInTheMaking]

I realize DR numbers are not the ultimate factor describing dynamics in music but when it gets as low as 5-6 it is not possible to sound good:
https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46312
I'm waiting for information about how the HDTracks and vinyl releases sound (not just numbers, opinions)!

The overcompressed sound has a huge impact on how people perceive the songs. Many people will say they don't like the album but not because the songs are bad... but because they couldn't focus on them and listen carefuly enough without drifting away or becoming fatigued... I am yet to see (hear) how I react but I'm holding off buying the CD until I find more info about other formats.

Any idea when exactly is the HDTracks release becoming available?

That site has FII as DR6. I think it sounds good.

[soulburner]

That site has FII as DR6. I think it sounds good.

That's because FII is between DR6 - 7, not 5 - 6
But seriously, yes - FII sounds a lot better than what one might expect based solely on the DR number. It doesn't sound great, though and I do consider most DT albums as poorly sounding

[BlobVanDam]

I realize DR numbers are not the ultimate factor describing dynamics in music but when it gets as low as 5-6 it is not possible to sound good:
https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46312
I'm waiting for information about how the HDTracks and vinyl releases sound (not just numbers, opinions)!

The overcompressed sound has a huge impact on how people perceive the songs. Many people will say they don't like the album but not because the songs are bad... but because they couldn't focus on them and listen carefuly enough without drifting away or becoming fatigued... I am yet to see (hear) how I react but I'm holding off buying the CD until I find more info about other formats.

Any idea when exactly is the HDTracks release becoming available?

That site has FII as DR6. I think it sounds good.

Most of FII registers as a DR7 or 6 (and BMS registers a DR5 for me), which is why the DR value alone isn't a solid indicator. It doesn't tell you what is causing it to register that value.
If you look at the waveform for something from FII, it's visibly a dynamic album, but the bass drum clips out (as it does on SC too), which is probably what's causing the value, but it's definitely audibly more dynamic than the more recent albums.

The DR value is a fair rough measure of the compression on an album, but it's merely supporting evidence, not proof alone of an album sounding good or bad.

[IslandInTheMaking]

Yes, FII is 6-7, but DT is 6-8.. so to me the DR value is pretty meningless when we are talking about what sounds good. It really oversimplifies the matter to a number wich wery often does not reflect the sound quality at all. At least to my ears. Yet it is often used as definitive evidence on the matter.. To me DT12 sounds a lot more compressed than FII. And if that can't translate itself to the DR values.. then I find it to be of no value to me .

Propably the best article on Loudness I have ever read is this:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm it's a long read but worth it. But the bottom line at least to me is that mastering is a creative choise. It's very hard to find a way to measure it in such a way that it could be used to rate the percieved dynamics  for all kinds of music. And should all kinds of music even have high dynamic range? To me the answer is absolutely not. It's an artists choise for me. There can be good results with both ways.

As for DT12: as i said earlier I think the master works great for example in TEI.. not so good in TBP. Could there be a master that works great for both? Probably, but it would sound a lot different so it would be subjective opinion again

[The Stray Seed]

Yes, FII is 6-7, but DT is 6-8.. so to me the DR value is pretty meningless when we are talking about what sounds good. It really oversimplifies the matter to a number wich wery often does not reflect the sound quality at all. At least to my ears. Yet it is often used as definitive evidence on the matter.. To me DT12 sounds a lot more compressed than FII. And if that can't translate itself to the DR values.. then I find it to be of no value to me .

Propably the best article on Loudness I have ever read is this:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm it's a long read but worth it. But the bottom line at least to me is that mastering is a creative choise. It's very hard to find a way to measure it in such a way that it could be used to rate the percieved dynamics  for all kinds of music. And should all kinds of music even have high dynamic range? To me the answer is absolutely not. It's an artists choise for me. There can be good results with both ways.

As for DT12: as i said earlier I think the master works great for example in TEI.. not so good in TBP. Could there be a master that works great for both? Probably, but it would sound a lot different so it would be subjective opinion again

Nice post 

[Perpetual Change]

I'll just say that I'm very disappointed. For all DT do writing this crafted, intricate music, they almost NEVER put equal diligence in making sure the music sounds good.

I think the new album sounds OK. Below standard, though, like almost every DT album.

[wolfking]

The album is over compressed and mastered loudly, but really it doesn't take anything away from it and to me it's sounding great, especially in the car stereo.

[soulburner]

The album is over compressed and mastered loudly, but really it doesn't take anything away from it and to me it's sounding great, especially in the car stereo.

Because it's mastered for car stereo and ipod headphones while commuting or walking through the city

[Kotowboy]

The CD does sound much better than the stream, but I never thought it was that bad. Worlds better than ADTOE

Yes. After listening to the stream - the CD was way brighter and fuller. Plus it sounded a lot more balanced and the snare wasn't so thuddy.

[Kotowboy]

The DR value is a fair rough measure of the compression on an album, but it's merely supporting evidence, not proof alone of an album sounding good or bad.

Blob - i'd love to know the DR of Death Magnetic. It's probably like 1 or something

Now that I have the CD - I think that the sound of DT12 is much better than ADTOE.

There is just a lot more punch than ADTOE and you can actually hear every instrument clearly. Even Myung.

[BlobVanDam]

The DR value is a fair rough measure of the compression on an album, but it's merely supporting evidence, not proof alone of an album sounding good or bad.

Blob - i'd love to know the DR of Death Magnetic. It's probably like 1 or something

The sad part is that you're not far off. The Day That Never Comes reports a DR2, and the rest of the album reports DR4. The lead in the the solo of Unforgiven 3 is just pure white noise. Absolutely awful.

[Kotowboy]

I've spoken to some people that actually can't hear the distortion on DM - even if you show them the GH3 version alongside.

[faizoff]

Listening to the amazon autorip mp3s, while its definitely better than the stream its still kinda loud. I'll have to listen to the 5.1 versions and compare. I can hear obvious clipping at times as well. It sounds better than ADTOE on first listen production wise but hard to tell right now, will need more listens.

[Perpetual Change]

Unfortunately (and I hope I'm not out of line here), I think sometimes it just comes down to the actual hearing of the people sitting in the producer's chair. DT and IM are two bands that frequently underwhelm in the sound department, and it's not a stretch to believe that John Petrucci and Steven Harris might suffer from less-than-average hearing, thanks to years on the road. Often, rock musicians late into their careers complain about that very issue. Yet these same musicians are also responsible fo signing off recordings.  And in the case of bands like IM or DT, those same musicians take a very active role in the recording process.

[Zydar]

With the latest Maiden albums they have also had Kevin Shirley as producer, don't know about his hearing though.

But in the end it's still Steve Harris who gives thumbs up or not if the recording is ready for release, so you're right.
 

[BlobVanDam]

With the latest Maiden albums they have also had Kevin Shirley as producer, don't know about his hearing though.

I haven't heard the recent IM albums, but his work on the other recent albums I've heard is great to me. I'd really like DT to work with him on another album.

[ariich]

Listening to the amazon autorip mp3s, while its definitely better than the stream its still kinda loud. I'll have to listen to the 5.1 versions and compare. I can hear obvious clipping at times as well. It sounds better than ADTOE on first listen production wise but hard to tell right now, will need more listens.

As I said before, my Amazon autorip mp3s sound a bit worse than the stream did, though I've no idea why that should be the case! I'm hoping that when the CD arrives and I rip it myself it sounds better like the stream did.

[Perpetual Change]

With the latest Maiden albums they have also had Kevin Shirley as producer, don't know about his hearing though.

But in the end it's still Steve Harris who gives thumbs up or not if the recording is ready for release, so you're right.

OK, but listen to the albums where Steve Harris essentially took the reigns (the Blaze ones), or his solo album. I think you'll hear what I mean.

[Bear Report]

I find that this an album that sounds better the louder you play it... at "I'm working on the computer volumes" not great, but if you blast it through some real speakers and a sub it sounds gigantic and wonderful.

[soulburner]

I'm not a big fan of Kevin Shirley's recent work at all. Iron Maiden albums sound very poorly since Dance of Death and I don't know how much it's Shirley's fault or Harris's. I don't like how recent albums have too much focus on the three guitars and they're too loud and kind of cover each other. Also I hate the raw vocals, recorded usually in one take. I understand it's an artistic choice to make the records as much live as possible but I believe it could have been done better.
I like Steve's solo album, British Lion. It sounds much better than Iron Maiden and Steven Shirley was also involved with production and mixing on it.

When Steve was the main producer during the Blaze era - I love how The X Factor sounds. It's very dynamic, the bass and drums sound amazing and I like how the guitars are made a little softer. Virtual XI sounds tragically and is even worse than Dance of Death

Generally, when musicians are involved with production of their albums, mixing and mastering... it doesn't come out right. Steven Wilson is an exception