Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)

[Sourcegamer101]

The jet engines at the end of the orchestra made me jump awake from my sleep.

[erwinrafael]

With Illumination Theory now played live for quite a number of times, I could definitely say now that this is a real masterpiece. Such an awesome song in a live setting. No "incoherence' whatsoever.

Best recording I found so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTEREgVgxAU

[wolfking]

James gets better and better at this song every night.  It's pretty amazing what he has been capable of so far.

[black_biff_stadler]

It's probably my favorite song of theirs since Train of Thought and allows me to hold on to some very small glimmer of hope that they can still write shit on par with their SDOIT-and-earlier material. Although I get virtually zero enjoyment from the mellow last five minutes or so, I'll gladly take it that way since it'd suck if the part I didn't like involved having to fast forward through it due to it being in the midst of parts I like (as in the tedious middle part of TCOT) or at the beginning (8VM as well as numerous other parts of that song that don't quite paint my toenails pink.)

Best of all, it's the closest I've come to liking JLB's vocals since Awake. He has some nice grit here and there.

[bl5150]

I had my first listen to it in a while today too ....................loved it even more after a break from DT 12 overload.   There's been a discussion lately on whether DT "grooves" or not and , although I'm no rhythm/groove expert , to me it grooves like a mutha.

Great track.

[erwinrafael]

Yep. I don't know if somebody can still say with a straight face that TCOT is better than this.

[Tom Bombadil]

TCOT is more than 30 times better than IT. That's probably an understatement.

[OsMosis2259]

I like IT a lot. I probably like it better than TCOT but TCOT just flows very nicely musically. I remember the first time I listened to TCOT, it didn't even feel like a 19 minute song.

I like all the music on IT but the flow just isn't as smooth as the TCOT IMO

[erwinrafael]

I like IT a lot. I probably like it better than TCOT but TCOT just flows very nicely musically. I remember the first time I listened to TCOT, it didn't even feel like a 19 minute song.

I like all the music on IT but the flow just isn't as smooth as the TCOT IMO

I really can not get this "usual" comment. I mean, if we are not listening to DT, I can get why people would expect really smooth transitions but the musical breaks seem normal to me in the context of DT. It is not any different from the transitions in songs like Scarred, Breaking All Illusions, etc. There are actually musical continuities within the song, like the melody of the slow intro reappearing in the orchestral section, and the groovy riff in Paradoxe de la Lumière Noire reappearing in the end part of The Pursuit of Truth.

[ori.elias5]

No intention to make it another "Battle of the songs thread" but i find both songs on the same level.

While IT is more consistent, TCOT has more magical moments but also worse parts. 2 totally different songs, with the stracture that is similar.

gotta say that for me it took more time for IT to grow on me wheres TCOT needed only 1 listen to know its wow.

Everytime i hear the orchestral part in the middle ( IT) i kind of picture myself the last scene that ends "Lost". i dont wanna spoil it for those who haven't seen it yet but the "Lost" fan will know what i mean. I think this section could matched perfectly for the finale episode soundtrack 

[Blazinarps]

They were dead the whole time.

[OsMosis2259]

I like IT a lot. I probably like it better than TCOT but TCOT just flows very nicely musically. I remember the first time I listened to TCOT, it didn't even feel like a 19 minute song.

I like all the music on IT but the flow just isn't as smooth as the TCOT IMO

I really can not get this "usual" comment. I mean, if we are not listening to DT, I can get why people would expect really smooth transitions but the musical breaks seem normal to me in the context of DT. It is not any different from the transitions in songs like Scarred, Breaking All Illusions, etc. There are actually musical continuities within the song, like the melody of the slow intro reappearing in the orchestral section, and the groovy riff in Paradoxe de la Lumière Noire reappearing in the end part of The Pursuit of Truth.

Yeah don't get me wrong... IT is still awesome and I understand all the musical themes that are going on in the song. I think the orchestral section is beautiful too.
I always thought it would have been awesome starting the song off with the orchestra section and then kicking into the intro/main riff... However, then I understand that it would just feel like Octavarium Part II.

There are a lot of transitions in DT songs but I think they worked better in songs like Breaking All Illusions, Octavarium, Outcry, A Change of Seasons and even in The Ministry of Lost Souls(I know I might be in the minority on that one).

I don't want this turning into a song battle either but overall there are parts that I like a lot in both TCOT and IT.
TCOT intro and outro is just amazing.
IT works better lyrically and "The Pursuit of Truth" is awesome.

Having said all that, IT is still a 9/10   

[The Stray Seed]

Disliking a progressive song for being largely incohesive is like dumping a girl cause her boobs were too big.

[OsMosis2259]

Disliking a progressive song for being largely incohesive is like dumping a girl cause her boobs were too big.

I think I made it clear that I liked the song when I said 9/10 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Disliking a progressive song for being largely incohesive is like dumping a girl cause her boobs were too big.

No, it's more like disliking a song because it's incohesive. "Progressive" doesn't mean "just throw everything in and it's a song", the ideas still have to flow naturally.

[The Stray Seed]

@Mosis: Yeah, it wasn't directed to you. It was just some sort of sudden manifestation that I had.

@Ninja: Uhm... so... no humor allowed outside the green zone I guess?

There is some sort of truth in IT, although. At least a pursuit.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

@Mosis: Yeah, it wasn't directed to you. It was just some sort of sudden manifestation that I had.

@Ninja: Uhm... so... no humor allowed outside the green zone I guess?

There is some sort of truth in IT, although. At least a pursuit.

Not unless you consult me first.

[The Holy Tune]

I was stunned by the song when i first downloaded the album. But at my 2nd listen, i felt something "lost". Fortunately, i soon found out that the song gets better with every listening. You hear a new note, a new word or some melody that makes you feel the "thing" in the song. Now, it's closing up to the best song for me, 8VM. Maybe one day IT will make me feel better? Until then, i can only embrace the beauty of the song and thank to every single person who worked on making this song...

With Illumination Theory now played live for quite a number of times, I could definitely say now that this is a real masterpiece. Such an awesome song in a live setting. No "incoherence' whatsoever.

Best recording I found so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTEREgVgxAU

Hey, i posted the vid of Roma in it's thread, go see that too. I think that was kinda better than this, the scream was way more controlled.

[erwinrafael]

I was stunned by the song when i first downloaded the album. But at my 2nd listen, i felt something "lost". Fortunately, i soon found out that the song gets better with every listening. You hear a new note, a new word or some melody that makes you feel the "thing" in the song. Now, it's closing up to the best song for me, 8VM. Maybe one day IT will make me feel better? Until then, i can only embrace the beauty of the song and thank to every single person who worked on making this song...

With Illumination Theory now played live for quite a number of times, I could definitely say now that this is a real masterpiece. Such an awesome song in a live setting. No "incoherence' whatsoever.

Best recording I found so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTEREgVgxAU

Hey, i posted the vid of Roma in it's thread, go see that too. I think that was kinda better than this, the scream was way more controlled.

Saw that one also. I think the one at Geox is better only because the vid captured the lower registers better. I can hear the bass drum and the bass guitar! Hehehe

[Hadi]

hey guys, whats your idea about  the piano+guitar part of  04:40 to 04:56?
it's the favourite part  of the song for me. so great.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Great little section of the song. I love how the instruments just compliment each other.

But for me there's tons of other more outstanding moments. For example, that entire section from about 6:01 to 6:55 is just godly.

[MarkFitDT]

Great little section of the song. I love how the instruments just compliment each other.

But for me there's tons of other more outstanding moments. For example, that entire section from about 6:01 to 6:55 is just godly.

agreed, that section is amazing! one more for me is 15:17 to 15:52 - the keys in this section are amazing.

I grown to truely love this song now. One of my fav ever DT songs. 

[Hadi]

Great little section of the song. I love how the instruments just compliment each other.

But for me there's tons of other more outstanding moments. For example, that entire section from about 6:01 to 6:55 is just godly.

oh yea! amazing melody.

agreed, that section is amazing! one more for me is 15:17 to 15:52 - the keys in this section are amazing.

I grown to truely love this song now. One of my fav ever DT songs. 

and just before that the melodic shredding that JP does right there.....

[wolfking]

This ones pretty damn good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz3Z767BDOQ

[kirksnosehair]

I've tried and tried to appreciate what they were trying to do with the orchestral section of "Illumination Theory" but I just can't do it.  That whole section, from about 7:10 to 11:10 (four minutes) does absolutely nothing to carry the song forward.   There's nothing wrong with it in and of itself.  It would be fine if they wanted to put something like that at on the album, between songs or something, but just shoehorning it into the middle of an epic serves no purpose.  I might feel differently about it if the orchestral section felt musically (melodically, to be more precise) connected to the entire song as a whole, but it shares no common themes nor melodies with the song, at least not by design.  The part is just kind of there...then it's....not there and using a reverse swell effect on each side of it doesn't necessarily integrate it into the song in a meaningful way or in a musically interesting way.  Reverse swells.  Welcome to basic audio engineering and mixing, class 2, maybe 3.  It's a ham-fisted approach to production, sorry.  It just feels lazy to me.  Like they said "oh, we need an orchestral part to this, where do we put it?"


I actually think "Illumination Theory" was created from a couple of song ideas that were melded into one long piece, which is a pretty common and natural evolution.     I just think they went off the rails a little bit with this part of the song.


That's really my only big gripe with the album.  I "get" the album.  I know what they were going for and I think they largely achieved it. 

[emtee]

I enjoy it much in the same light as Dogs, Awaken, Time Flies, Gates of Delerium, etc...long songs with drastically different sections.

And I love that section very much. One of the coolest things DT has ever done IMO.

[Lowdz]

This ones pretty damn good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz3Z767BDOQ

Exactly 2 weeks from now I will be seeing this very thing. Can't wait.
Mangini- makes being awesome look pretty effortless.

That last "You'll never know" always feels like it should go higher and bigger. I anticipate it every time and it just... doesn't.

[wolfking]

This ones pretty damn good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz3Z767BDOQ

Exactly 2 weeks from now I will be seeing this very thing. Can't wait.
Mangini- makes being awesome look pretty effortless.

That last "You'll never know" always feels like it should go higher and bigger. I anticipate it every time and it just... doesn't.

Do you mean the highest one after the climax has been reached?

[puppyonacid]

I've tried and tried to appreciate what they were trying to do with the orchestral section of "Illumination Theory" but I just can't do it.  That whole section, from about 7:10 to 11:10 (four minutes) does absolutely nothing to carry the song forward.   There's nothing wrong with it in and of itself.  It would be fine if they wanted to put something like that at on the album, between songs or something, but just shoehorning it into the middle of an epic serves no purpose.  I might feel differently about it if the orchestral section felt musically (melodically, to be more precise) connected to the entire song as a whole, but it shares no common themes nor melodies with the song, at least not by design.  The part is just kind of there...then it's....not there and using a reverse swell effect on each side of it doesn't necessarily integrate it into the song in a meaningful way or in a musically interesting way.  Reverse swells.  Welcome to basic audio engineering and mixing, class 2, maybe 3.  It's a ham-fisted approach to production, sorry.  It just feels lazy to me.  Like they said "oh, we need an orchestral part to this, where do we put it?"


I actually think "Illumination Theory" was created from a couple of song ideas that were melded into one long piece, which is a pretty common and natural evolution.     I just think they went off the rails a little bit with this part of the song.


That's really my only big gripe with the album.  I "get" the album.  I know what they were going for and I think they largely achieved it.

+1

[erwinrafael]

I've tried and tried to appreciate what they were trying to do with the orchestral section of "Illumination Theory" but I just can't do it.  That whole section, from about 7:10 to 11:10 (four minutes) does absolutely nothing to carry the song forward.   There's nothing wrong with it in and of itself.  It would be fine if they wanted to put something like that at on the album, between songs or something, but just shoehorning it into the middle of an epic serves no purpose.  I might feel differently about it if the orchestral section felt musically (melodically, to be more precise) connected to the entire song as a whole, but it shares no common themes nor melodies with the song, at least not by design.  The part is just kind of there...then it's....not there and using a reverse swell effect on each side of it doesn't necessarily integrate it into the song in a meaningful way or in a musically interesting way.  Reverse swells.  Welcome to basic audio engineering and mixing, class 2, maybe 3.  It's a ham-fisted approach to production, sorry.  It just feels lazy to me.  Like they said "oh, we need an orchestral part to this, where do we put it?"


I actually think "Illumination Theory" was created from a couple of song ideas that were melded into one long piece, which is a pretty common and natural evolution.     I just think they went off the rails a little bit with this part of the song.


That's really my only big gripe with the album.  I "get" the album.  I know what they were going for and I think they largely achieved it.

+1

No common melodies? How anybody can not hear that the climax of the orchestral part, the alleged Tchaikovskyesque melody, is basically the same as the majestic introduction is really BEYOND me.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I guess we're just not as smart as you.

[erwinrafael]

I guess we're just not as smart as you.

Or maybe some people are just not really listening to the melodies before complaining?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

You're right. I should have consulted you first.

[puppyonacid]

I'm not complaining.

I just don't see the point in the orchestral section.

Music works when the added piece would always have been missing.

The orchestral part doesn't sound like it would be missed if it weren't there.

[erwinrafael]

I'm not complaining.

I just don't see the point in the orchestral section.

Music works when the added piece would always have been missing.

The orchestral part doesn't sound like it would be missed if it weren't there.

I am reacting to this section of the post you quoted "I might feel differently about it if the orchestral section felt musically (melodically, to be more precise) connected to the entire song as a whole, but it shares no common themes nor melodies with the song, at least not by design."

I can see how others would find the orchestral section unnecessary or not adding anything substantial to the song. However, as I said earlier, I can not see how anybody can say that there are no common melodies between the orchestral section and the other parts because the main orchestral melody is the intro melody.