Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)

[hefdaddy42]

Guys, was the middle section ripped off? I've heard a YT link to some classical song that sounded just like the intro to IT, but is all of the middle orchestral section ripped off as well? Near the end of the orchestral section, it reprises the intro melody, but there are some really pretty parts of the orchestral section that don't sound ripped off.

This has been discussed over and over, including just a few posts before yours.

It isn't a ripoff, but it may certainly be a nod.

[XB0BX]

This has been discussed over and over, including just a few posts before yours.

It isn't a ripoff, but it may certainly be a nod.

I'm aware it's been discussed over and over again, but I just wanted to clarify if the entire orchestral section was a "nod" to that classical piece. I can definitely hear some of it from that Tchaikovsky (sp?) piece, but to my ears there are at least 2 different melodies in the orchestral piece, and some of it sounds 100% original

[FrostbiteZ]

Well the song inspired me to go out and buy Charlie Chaplins Limelight on blu-ray. Its properly 15-20 years since I last saw the movie, but Limelight was the first thing that came to mind when I heard the orchestral section for the first time. So I had to check out if it just was my imagination or if there was a resembles.

I did not really find any resembles, but they both trigger the same emotions of sadness and loss in me and that is properly why I thought it sounded like Limelight. Which btw is an exellent movie and it looks amazing on blu-ray. I can highly recommend it

[GasparXR]

I don't know if it's just me, but the very beginning of IT makes me think of Lost Not Forgotten, when the band enters. I'm not accusing them of being unoriginal of course, that would just be silly. But it does give the same vibe, at least for me.

[bosk1]

whaling vocals

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.  But it if is just silly trolling like the rest of your post appears to be, please knock it off.

The first part of the orchestra is completely unfitting to the song. Sounds like a classical piece from the baroque era of music. Not a big fan.

Baroque era? I'm not sure that's quite accurate. Sounds pretty romantic to me. Many have called the Tchaikovsky influences too.

Bang on, it sounds absolutely nothing like baroque music.

Okay, so now that we've established that it ain't baroque, I think we can safely assume that it don't need fixin'.

[ariich]

[Marion Crane]

I'm not trolling at all.   I'm stating my honest opinion of the song.  What I meant by "whaling" vocals is the "never no" part at the end.  Just seems like he's improvising that whole section.  Seems like a part that should have been cut, or had another take. 

[BRGM]

I don't know if it's just me, but the very beginning of IT makes me think of Lost Not Forgotten, when the band enters. I'm not accusing them of being unoriginal of course, that would just be silly. But it does give the same vibe, at least for me.

Yes, this occured to me too. They're in the same key after all.

[Implode]

Okay, so now that we've established that it ain't baroque, I think we can safely assume that it don't need fixin'.

I was counting down the posts until we saw that joke posted.

[hefdaddy42]

I knew it would be you, bosky.

I knew it would be you.

[Implode]

This just hit me. The first part of the song is posing the questions, then the ambient and orchestral sections are the reflection and examination of the questions, finally the next section is the answers to those question.

Seems really obvious, and I don't know why I didn't really think about that before.

[TAC]

I knew it would be you, bosky.

I knew it would be you.

Yup, Classical Bosk,

[Lucien]

This just hit me. The first part of the song is posing the questions, then the ambient and orchestral sections are the reflection and examination of the questions, finally the next section is the answers to those question.

Seems really obvious, and I don't know why I didn't really think about that before.

Interesting.

[mabowe]

The "Dimebag" sounding riff from 4:57-5:50 is amazing!

[BlobVanDam]

The "Dimebag" sounding riff from 4:57-5:50 is amazing!

When you mentioned Dimebag, I thought you were going to mention the riff at 1:21, which sounds a bit Pantera-ish to me. Reminds me of Revolution Is My Name.
Which is a good thing. IT is full of awesome riffs.

[Zook]

This song is amazing. Although I made an edit without the Disneycore, I'd rather listen to the full song. The orchestral part is beautiful.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

It's just silly to think they would even "rip off" something.

What, is Rudess like "Eh, I'm feeling lazy, let me extract a classical piece from this song, and put it in our song."

[BlobVanDam]

It's just silly to think they would even "rip off" something.

What, is Rudess like "Eh, I'm feeling lazy, let me extract a classical piece from this song, and put it in our song."

Given his musical background, it's possible he subconsciously recalled a bit of it unintentionally. It's also possible it's just coincidence, since it's only a few notes, and the feel is completely different anyway.
It's no big deal to me either way.

[GasparXR]

It's just silly to think they would even "rip off" something.

What, is Rudess like "Eh, I'm feeling lazy, let me extract a classical piece from this song, and put it in our song."

Given his musical background, it's possible he subconsciously recalled a bit of it unintentionally. It's also possible it's just coincidence, since it's only a few notes, and the feel is completely different anyway.
It's no big deal to me either way.

I also recall JP saying he came up with that part on guitar during the ADTOE tour, not JR.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Oh I didn't realize that!

It just tickles me that some people just try to find the comparisons between different music, and don't just accept it for what it is.

[BlobVanDam]

It's just silly to think they would even "rip off" something.

What, is Rudess like "Eh, I'm feeling lazy, let me extract a classical piece from this song, and put it in our song."

Given his musical background, it's possible he subconsciously recalled a bit of it unintentionally. It's also possible it's just coincidence, since it's only a few notes, and the feel is completely different anyway.
It's no big deal to me either way.

I also recall JP saying he came up with that part on guitar during the ADTOE tour, not JR.

Damn, I was going to suggest that might be possible, since it's a typical JP style theme melody, although I thought it was less likely given that in this instance he didn't reprise the melody himself (unless I'm forgetting a bit).

[AngelBack]

I just don't get those that seem to want to prove that DT are taking short cuts, stealing ideas or just on cruise control.  Each member is arguably at the top of their respective ranks on their instruments.  You don't get there by being lazy or taking short cuts.  They work tirelessly to craft new, inspiring and innovative tunes for US, their fans.  Have you ever counted the number of patches and styles JR puts into just ONE song just to get it to that just right feel and compliment to the rest of the song?  And JP can solo with the best, but do you ever listen to the intricate parts  he puts into his rhythm parts?  He could get by with less, but these guys are perfectionists and professionals unlike most musicians you will encounter.  Stop playing the "gotcha" game and appreciate what these guys do.  I do not believe ANY of them will settle for less than their absolute best on each record.

If you don't realize this by the quality of this album, I wonder if you really get how special these guys are.

*hops down off soapbox*

[The Stray Seed]

I just don't get those that seem to want to prove that DT are taking short cuts, stealing ideas or just on cruise control.  Each member is arguably at the top of their respective ranks on their instruments.  You don't get there by being lazy or taking short cuts.  They work tirelessly to craft new, inspiring and innovative tunes for US, their fans.  Have you ever counted the number of patches and styles JR puts into just ONE song just to get it to that just right feel and compliment to the rest of the song?  And JP can solo with the best, but do you ever listen to the intricate parts  he puts into his rhythm parts?  He could get by with less, but these guys are perfectionists and professionals unlike most musicians you will encounter.  Stop playing the "gotcha" game and appreciate what these guys do.  I do not believe ANY of them will settle for less than their absolute best on each record.

If you don't realize this by the quality of this album, I wonder if you really get how special these guys are.

*hops down off soapbox*

This. And thank you.

[mikeyd23]

I just don't get those that seem to want to prove that DT are taking short cuts, stealing ideas or just on cruise control.  Each member is arguably at the top of their respective ranks on their instruments.  You don't get there by being lazy or taking short cuts.  They work tirelessly to craft new, inspiring and innovative tunes for US, their fans.  Have you ever counted the number of patches and styles JR puts into just ONE song just to get it to that just right feel and compliment to the rest of the song?  And JP can solo with the best, but do you ever listen to the intricate parts  he puts into his rhythm parts?  He could get by with less, but these guys are perfectionists and professionals unlike most musicians you will encounter.  Stop playing the "gotcha" game and appreciate what these guys do.  I do not believe ANY of them will settle for less than their absolute best on each record.

If you don't realize this by the quality of this album, I wonder if you really get how special these guys are.

*hops down off soapbox*

Nice post! 

[Podaar]

*hops down off soapbox*

More like, *crushes soapbox and kicks the splinters to the curb*.

 

[Lowdz]

I just don't get those that seem to want to prove that DT are taking short cuts, stealing ideas or just on cruise control.  Each member is arguably at the top of their respective ranks on their instruments.  You don't get there by being lazy or taking short cuts.  They work tirelessly to craft new, inspiring and innovative tunes for US, their fans.  Have you ever counted the number of patches and styles JR puts into just ONE song just to get it to that just right feel and compliment to the rest of the song?  And JP can solo with the best, but do you ever listen to the intricate parts  he puts into his rhythm parts?  He could get by with less, but these guys are perfectionists and professionals unlike most musicians you will encounter.  Stop playing the "gotcha" game and appreciate what these guys do.  I do not believe ANY of them will settle for less than their absolute best on each record.

If you don't realize this by the quality of this album, I wonder if you really get how special these guys are.

*hops down off soapbox*

 
Nicely summed up.

[ishak540m]

It's just silly to think they would even "rip off" something.

What, is Rudess like "Eh, I'm feeling lazy, let me extract a classical piece from this song, and put it in our song."

I think this song flows like a Muse epic so I'd attribute that to Petrucci wanting to do something similar.

[wolfking]

I just don't get those that seem to want to prove that DT are taking short cuts, stealing ideas or just on cruise control.  Each member is arguably at the top of their respective ranks on their instruments.  You don't get there by being lazy or taking short cuts.  They work tirelessly to craft new, inspiring and innovative tunes for US, their fans.  Have you ever counted the number of patches and styles JR puts into just ONE song just to get it to that just right feel and compliment to the rest of the song?  And JP can solo with the best, but do you ever listen to the intricate parts  he puts into his rhythm parts?  He could get by with less, but these guys are perfectionists and professionals unlike most musicians you will encounter.  Stop playing the "gotcha" game and appreciate what these guys do.  I do not believe ANY of them will settle for less than their absolute best on each record.

If you don't realize this by the quality of this album, I wonder if you really get how special these guys are.

*hops down off soapbox*

This post is fucking legit.

[Zook]

What is the piece that the string section of IT sounds similar to?

[volwrath]

I just listened to IT yet again on 5.1 and it is a thing of beauty.  I give it a 4.75 / 5 .  I probably enjoy it more than octavarium or ITPOE, and right there with TCoT (albeit different) This song has grown, and made me OPEN UP MY EYYYYEEEEESSSSS

[JiM-Xtreme]

I'm very pleased to say that after four listens with a bit of time to reflect in between, I'm starting to get this song now. The ambient section in the middle followed by the string section is really beautiful and I can see why it has brought some people to tears, even if doesn't quite have that effect on me (yet). Several other moments, such as the ending chords, also give me chills.

One thing I don't get, though, is what the lyrics of the final section have to do with the lyrics of the rest of the song. What does this section have to do with "the question"?

[The Stray Seed]

What is the piece that the string section of IT sounds similar to?

Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto Number One.

[AngelBack]

Don't know if anyone has called this out yet but I love the nod to Razor's Edge final solo at 18:09.  Chills all over again.  Loving this song more and more.

[Zook]

What is the piece that the string section of IT sounds similar to?

Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto Number One.

Thanks.

[BlobVanDam]

Don't know if anyone has called this out yet but I love the nod to Razor's Edge final solo at 18:09.  Chills all over again.  Loving this song more and more.

I don't hear any "nod" to Razor's Edge, but if there is, I'd say it's just JP using a similar fast pattern, rather than anything intentional.
I wouldn't rate the end solo of IT highly compared to JP's big epic outro solos such as 8V, TCOT, TBOT etc, but it is a cool solo though. JP is always on fire in that regard.