Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)

[DeanTheater]

Holy crap, this song gets better every time I hear it.  It is rivaling my favorites in the DT catalogue.  It's got everything.

Came here today to bascially post this.  It's amazing, and Surrender, Trust and Passion is one of DT's greatest moments, James is perfect here.

THIS!

I am crying with a raging hardon during the last 4-5 minutes of IT.  God DT has kicked my ass once again.

[j]

Almost all of this song is still slowly growing on me after several listens, with three exceptions:

1) I find the first few minutes to be fairly uninteresting.
2) The orchestral section is beautiful, but does not sound remotely original to me.
3) The "never know"s at the end are way over the top IMO.

Other than that and a bit of disjointedness as others have noted, the song contains some of the most awesome moments on the album.  One of my favorite parts is Petrucci's LTE-esque solo in the first half.

-J

[Knguro]

2) The orchestral section is beautiful, but does not sound remotely original to me.

Can you explain, what do you mean by original?

[ariich]

If it's "absolutely beautiful", why does it matter whether it's original?

For the record, I agree with the statement, but don't see it as a problem at all. It's probably my favourite part of the entire album.

[BlobVanDam]

It's a straight up orchestral section, that sounds intentionally arranged in a very traditional way, as opposed to being unorthodox (there's the rest of the song for that). I feel like the whole point was to sound like a classic cinematic movie score, but the context of how it's used in the song is what makes it different.

Yes, I've heard orchestral scores arranged similarly before. And I've heard the Tchaikovsky piece that has a very similar melody to it. But they don't give me the same feeling as this does.
It's so beautiful, and makes me feel like I'm watching the finale of a classic 40s/50s movie. It evokes so much feeling, and that's what matters to me in music, not whether or not I've heard something sort of similar before.

[Knguro]

Totally agree.

[wolven74]

If it's "absolutely beautiful", why does it matter whether it's original?

This..... and

It's probably my favourite part of the entire album.

SO MUCH THIS!!!!! 

The orchestral part of IT is the most epic part of any epic ever penned by Dream Theater. Sure, it bares some resemblance to a certain 19th century romantic, but there's nothing wrong with giving a nod to influences.

[hefdaddy42]

It's a straight up orchestral section, that sounds intentionally arranged in a very traditional way, as opposed to being unorthodox (there's the rest of the song for that). I feel like the whole point was to sound like a classic cinematic movie score, but the context of how it's used in the song is what makes it different.

Yes, I've heard orchestral scores arranged similarly before. And I've heard the Tchaikovsky piece that has a very similar melody to it. But they don't give me the same feeling as this does.
It's so beautiful, and makes me feel like I'm watching the finale of a classic 40s/50s movie. It evokes so much feeling, and that's what matters to me in music, not whether or not I've heard something sort of similar before.

Yep.

Although I must say that it is not my favorite part of the song.  And furthermore, my daughter actually prefers the ambient sound effect section immediately preceding the strings.  She calls it "the beautiful part."

[Bertielee]

It's a straight up orchestral section, that sounds intentionally arranged in a very traditional way, as opposed to being unorthodox (there's the rest of the song for that). I feel like the whole point was to sound like a classic cinematic movie score, but the context of how it's used in the song is what makes it different.

Yes, I've heard orchestral scores arranged similarly before. And I've heard the Tchaikovsky piece that has a very similar melody to it. But they don't give me the same feeling as this does.
It's so beautiful, and makes me feel like I'm watching the finale of a classic 40s/50s movie. It evokes so much feeling, and that's what matters to me in music, not whether or not I've heard something sort of similar before.

Yep.

Although I must say that it is not my favorite part of the song.  And furthermore, my daughter actually prefers the ambient sound effect section immediately preceding the strings.  She calls it "the beautiful part."

Yeah, I'd rather go with the ambient part than the orchestral one. I mean, the orchestral part is beautiful and all, but it doesn't move me.

B.Lee

[BlobVanDam]

It's a straight up orchestral section, that sounds intentionally arranged in a very traditional way, as opposed to being unorthodox (there's the rest of the song for that). I feel like the whole point was to sound like a classic cinematic movie score, but the context of how it's used in the song is what makes it different.

Yes, I've heard orchestral scores arranged similarly before. And I've heard the Tchaikovsky piece that has a very similar melody to it. But they don't give me the same feeling as this does.
It's so beautiful, and makes me feel like I'm watching the finale of a classic 40s/50s movie. It evokes so much feeling, and that's what matters to me in music, not whether or not I've heard something sort of similar before.

Yep.

Although I must say that it is not my favorite part of the song.  And furthermore, my daughter actually prefers the ambient sound effect section immediately preceding the strings.  She calls it "the beautiful part."

I don't get that at all. It's basically just wind chime samples. It's pleasant and all, but it's not even music.

[wolfking]

Okay, Surrender, Trust and Passion could be DT's crowning achievement, I can't believe how good this is.

Also, on another point regarding the lyrics, are any of the band members religious or anything?  Does anyone have a clue where the subject matter evolved from?  It's the lyrics in S,T&P that hit me.  It has obvious religious influneces, but also are simply terrific lyrics for anyone living their life the best they can.  Fabulous lyrics and overall delivery.

[Tick]

It's a straight up orchestral section, that sounds intentionally arranged in a very traditional way, as opposed to being unorthodox (there's the rest of the song for that). I feel like the whole point was to sound like a classic cinematic movie score, but the context of how it's used in the song is what makes it different.

Yes, I've heard orchestral scores arranged similarly before. And I've heard the Tchaikovsky piece that has a very similar melody to it. But they don't give me the same feeling as this does.
It's so beautiful, and makes me feel like I'm watching the finale of a classic 40s/50s movie. It evokes so much feeling, and that's what matters to me in music, not whether or not I've heard something sort of similar before.

Yep.

Although I must say that it is not my favorite part of the song.  And furthermore, my daughter actually prefers the ambient sound effect section immediately preceding the strings.  She calls it "the beautiful part."

I don't get that at all. It's basically just wind chime samples. It's pleasant and all, but it's not even music.

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

[BlobVanDam]

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

I mean, there is some vague resemblance of notes in there, but it's barely what I'd call music. To me it's just the dead air I have to skip between the awesome bits. I don't understand how anyone could like it more than the music music, especially something so thoroughly gorgeous as that orchestral section. Every time I listen to it, it's like I have to tell myself not to cry. DON'T CRY, BLOB. BE STRONG!

[Fiery Winds]

So I'm sitting at work this morning, listening to IT on my headphones.  Anyone familiar with the screen utility F.lux will understand how much my mind was blown when my work screen transitioned from late night (pink-ish) to early morning (more white-ish) in PERFECT synchronization with the transition from II. "Live, Die, Kill" to III. "The Embracing Circle". 

[Tick]

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

I mean, there is some vague resemblance of notes in there, but it's barely what I'd call music. To me it's just the dead air I have to skip between the awesome bits. I don't understand how anyone could like it more than the music music, especially something so thoroughly gorgeous as that orchestral section. Every time I listen to it, it's like I have to tell myself not to cry. DON'T CRY, BLOB. BE STRONG!

I thought you were talking about the orchestrated section not birds chirping. Sorry, I need to pay better attention! Oh dopey me.

[Implode]

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

I mean, there is some vague resemblance of notes in there, but it's barely what I'd call music. To me it's just the dead air I have to skip between the awesome bits. I don't understand how anyone could like it more than the music music, especially something so thoroughly gorgeous as that orchestral section. Every time I listen to it, it's like I have to tell myself not to cry. DON'T CRY, BLOB. BE STRONG!
[/quote
I actually really enjoy the ambient bit. I think it works really well.

[BlobVanDam]

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

I mean, there is some vague resemblance of notes in there, but it's barely what I'd call music. To me it's just the dead air I have to skip between the awesome bits. I don't understand how anyone could like it more than the music music, especially something so thoroughly gorgeous as that orchestral section. Every time I listen to it, it's like I have to tell myself not to cry. DON'T CRY, BLOB. BE STRONG!

I thought you were talking about the orchestrated section not birds chirping. Sorry, I need to pay better attention! Oh dopey me.

Oh hell no! If I said such a thing about the orchestral section, I'd deserve a swift kick to the face. It's my favourite part of the album.

[hefdaddy42]

It's a straight up orchestral section, that sounds intentionally arranged in a very traditional way, as opposed to being unorthodox (there's the rest of the song for that). I feel like the whole point was to sound like a classic cinematic movie score, but the context of how it's used in the song is what makes it different.

Yes, I've heard orchestral scores arranged similarly before. And I've heard the Tchaikovsky piece that has a very similar melody to it. But they don't give me the same feeling as this does.
It's so beautiful, and makes me feel like I'm watching the finale of a classic 40s/50s movie. It evokes so much feeling, and that's what matters to me in music, not whether or not I've heard something sort of similar before.

Yep.

Although I must say that it is not my favorite part of the song.  And furthermore, my daughter actually prefers the ambient sound effect section immediately preceding the strings.  She calls it "the beautiful part."

I don't get that at all. It's basically just wind chime samples. It's pleasant and all, but it's not even music.

Well, she's ten years old and she thinks it's beautiful.

She likes the rest of the song too.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, she's ten years old and she thinks it's beautiful.

She likes the rest of the song too.

I'M NOT JUDGING YOUR DAUGHTER. PLEASE DON'T KILL ME.


Nothing wrong with liking the ambient part! I'm just so in love with that string section that I demand it be everybody's favourite part too.

[The Stray Seed]

Okay, Surrender, Trust and Passion could be DT's crowning achievement, I can't believe how good this is.

Also, on another point regarding the lyrics, are any of the band members religious or anything?  Does anyone have a clue where the subject matter evolved from?  It's the lyrics in S,T&P that hit me.  It has obvious religious influneces, but also are simply terrific lyrics for anyone living their life the best they can.  Fabulous lyrics and overall delivery.

I agree with you, wolf! Petrucci has always written many lyrics inspired by religious themes, so this makes me think he must be quite interested in the matter =)

[hefdaddy42]

Well, she's ten years old and she thinks it's beautiful.

She likes the rest of the song too.

I'M NOT JUDGING YOUR DAUGHTER. PLEASE DON'T KILL ME.

OK, just this once. 

Nothing wrong with liking the ambient part! I'm just so in love with that string section that I demand it be everybody's favourite part too.

I understand.  But I think my favorite part is when the drums & bass come in right after that. 

[The Stray Seed]

Well, looks like I'm on seventh heaven, cause I simply love the whole transition instrumental > ambient > strings > bass and drum.

[BlobVanDam]

Nothing wrong with liking the ambient part! I'm just so in love with that string section that I demand it be everybody's favourite part too.

I understand.  But I think my favorite part is when the drums & bass come in right after that. 

That is also a very acceptable answer!

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, I love the strings, but the whole time I'm thinking, "This is gorgeous, but the bass & drums are coming up soon"

[Fiery Winds]

Yeah, I love the strings, but the whole time I'm thinking, "This is gorgeous, but the bass & drums are coming up soon"

This.  Not only that, I love when JP adds the *chugga chugga* at 11:52.  Really amps up that section for me. 

[JPX]

Here's how you put an orchestral section in the middle of a song and make it work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HotjzABI0w

[Polarbear]

The song is really just..... ok in my opinion. Some nice parts are scattered here and there, but there is really nothing to keep me interested and invested for much more than few spins. And i just hate how they waste such a nice orchestral piece to such a lackluster song, they should have ditched the FAS and used this as an intro to the album.

Also i see that the problems in this song applies to the whole album. Parts of the album are much better than entire songs. And to me this is easily the most inconsistent album they have ever made.

[FourthHorseman]

The melody in JP's solo before the ambient/symphonic part is one of the most beautiful things DT have come up with, and I think it transitions horribly into the ambient section. They should have just built off of "Live, Die, Kill" IMO.

[Lucien]

I feel it could have had better transitions if  this had been the order:

Illumination Theory
I The Embracing Circle
II Paradoxe de le Lumiere Noire
III Live, Die, Kill
IV The Pursuit of Truth
V Surrender, Trust, and Passion

[j]

2) The orchestral section is beautiful, but does not sound remotely original to me.

Can you explain, what do you mean by original?

If it's "absolutely beautiful", why does it matter whether it's original?

For the record, I agree with the statement, but don't see it as a problem at all. It's probably my favourite part of the entire album.

If it's "absolutely beautiful", why does it matter whether it's original?

This.....

I don't know, I feel like I've heard it countless times before, and it's just a little too cliched for me to get too excited about it.  That doesn't mean it's unpleasant to my ears.

-J

[wolfking]

I posted this above but;

Also, on another point regarding the lyrics, are any of the band members religious or anything?  Does anyone have a clue where the subject matter evolved from?  It's the lyrics in S,T&P that hit me.  It has obvious religious influneces, but also are simply terrific lyrics for anyone living their life the best they can.

[ariich]

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

I mean, there is some vague resemblance of notes in there, but it's barely what I'd call music. To me it's just the dead air I have to skip between the awesome bits. I don't understand how anyone could like it more than the music music, especially something so thoroughly gorgeous as that orchestral section. Every time I listen to it, it's like I have to tell myself not to cry. DON'T CRY, BLOB. BE STRONG!

I don't agree at all, it's definitely music. It's just ambient/atmospheric, rather than melodic. On the whole I prefer the latter, but I still love the former as well and can totally understand why someone would like that section so much.

[Knguro]

Yeah, I love the strings, but the whole time I'm thinking, "This is gorgeous, but the bass & drums are coming up soon"

And that's why we love so much Dream Theater.

[Knguro]

Of coarse its music! Inuit Eskimos making clicking sounds out there mouths is music. (Inuit throat music) It may not make sense to you but its music.
The classical section of the song is an amazing melody. Somewhere in heaven, Mozart  just faped to it!

I mean, there is some vague resemblance of notes in there, but it's barely what I'd call music. To me it's just the dead air I have to skip between the awesome bits. I don't understand how anyone could like it more than the music music, especially something so thoroughly gorgeous as that orchestral section. Every time I listen to it, it's like I have to tell myself not to cry. DON'T CRY, BLOB. BE STRONG!

I don't agree at all, it's definitely music. It's just ambient/atmospheric, rather than melodic. On the whole I prefer the latter, but I still love the former as well and can totally understand why someone would like that section so much.

Totally agree as well.

[Lucien]

I posted this above but;

Also, on another point regarding the lyrics, are any of the band members religious or anything?  Does anyone have a clue where the subject matter evolved from?  It's the lyrics in S,T&P that hit me.  It has obvious religious influneces, but also are simply terrific lyrics for anyone living their life the best they can.

John Petrucci is a devout Catholic. Proof? Listen to that entire DTF Q&A with the band. He says it once, specifically on the subject of the lyrics. He does not intend for them to be preachy, or to be specifically of Christianity. He intends for them to be of interpretable definition.