What are your thoughts on DT12?

[Podaar]

I'm not surprised there are so many people who don't like the virtuoso sections of songs but still are DT fans. DT is about so much more than just virtuosity that there are bound to be fans that love other aspects but not that. I will say what does still confuse me is that some folks seem so surprised when those moments are included!    Seriously, every album has them in abundance.

Back to this album: I've tried to burn myself out on it, I can't. I've tried to nitpick it, I can't. I've tried to despise it, I can't. It's official, I really love this record! Top tier album for me and is exactly what I would have liked to create if I had any talent whatsoever.

I love this post, but one question....Why did you try to despise it?

I enjoy questioning my biases. I've read enough posts from listeners who don't like the album to compel me to put myself in their shoes and try to see where they're coming from. After all, many of us who do like it would like others to give it an honest chance. It only seems fair to give their views the same weight.

[Polarbear]

"Wankery" is one of their trademarks, sure, but they do sometimes seem to indulge it at the expense of some of their other trademarks.

Honestly i cannot name a single song where that has bothered me. Songs like Blind Faith sound perfect to me as they are, with
great melodies and a "wankery" section.

[Outcrier]

There are songs sprinkled throughout the band's catalog where they are firing on all cylinders with a great riff, or great vocals, or great melodies, and then they turn their focus to soloing and it kills the mood.

Specially since Systematic Chaos (for me at least).

[Outcrier]

"Wankery" is one of their trademarks, sure, but they do sometimes seem to indulge it at the expense of some of their other trademarks.

Honestly i cannot name a single song where that has bothered me. Songs like Blind Faith sound perfect to me as they are, with
great melodies and a "wankery" section.

Yeah, but that unison have a nice "kind of melody", it's not just fast notes for nothing.

[ariich]

"Wankery" is one of their trademarks, sure, but they do sometimes seem to indulge it at the expense of some of their other trademarks.

Honestly i cannot name a single song where that has bothered me. Songs like Blind Faith sound perfect to me as they are, with
great melodies and a "wankery" section.

Yeah, but that unison have a nice "kind of melody", it's not just fast notes for nothing.

Just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean they just wrote fast notes "for nothing".

[Outcrier]

Nothing to do with me liking it or not, just throwing the songwriting to space 
For example, that part (2:00 i think) into Lost Not Forgotten that there's is that crazy section that i think it is forced and cringeworthy but just forget it, you will say i just dislike it... opinions, subjectivity, blah blah blah, like there's no reason to think it is plain bad and they could have made something better instead of showing of.

[ariich]

You are welcome to think that it's bad, and that they could have made something better. But "bad" and "better" is still as defined by you, and not as an objective standard. That section was still written because they liked it that way, and not just for the sake of it, as you implied with your earlier post. It's an important distinction.

[hefdaddy42]

Nothing to do with me liking it or not, just throwing the songwriting to space 
For example, that part (2:00 i think) into Lost Not Forgotten that there's is that crazy section that i think it is forced and cringeworthy but just forget it, you will say i just dislike it... opinions, subjectivity, blah blah blah, like there's no reason to think it is plain bad and they could have made something better instead of showing of.

They could have done something different, to be sure.  But "better" or "worse" are in the eye of the beholder.  This section you mention is exactly what they wanted to put there, and it works great for most fans.  It just doesn't for you, that's all.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Nothing to do with me liking it or not, just throwing the songwriting to space 
For example, that part (2:00 i think) into Lost Not Forgotten that there's is that crazy section that i think it is forced and cringeworthy but just forget it, you will say i just dislike it... opinions, subjectivity, blah blah blah, like there's no reason to think it is plain bad and they could have made something better instead of showing of.

"showing off" is a critical part of the DT experience. LNF is an amazing song in every way. And the tickle section-- which I think you are talking about-- is one of the best technical sections DT has ever done.

[aprilethereal]

It's really impressive from a technical standpoint, but I'm not a big fan of that section either. It's a bit too ridiculous and doesn't really fit. IMO.

[Tick]

It makes me laugh when I read some say that Enigma Machine was just the obligatory instrumental they added to the album just to have one. That makes no sense to me since they don't have a token instrumental on every album. Silly.

[hefdaddy42]

It makes me laugh when I read some say that Enigma Machine was just the obligatory instrumental they added to the album just to have one. That makes no sense to me since they don't have a token instrumental on every album. Silly.

Not to mention that it isn't a technical wankfest like, say, TDOT, or a more bloated piece like SOC, but is rather more melodic and a real concisely constructed piece of music, more akin to Erotomania.

[wasteland]

I'm trying to listen to this album as little as I can, and with two-three days long gaps between listenings. A success, so far. Every time I get back to it I keep being completely blown away, over and over again! 

[Outcrier]

It's really impressive from a technical standpoint, but I'm not a big fan of that section either. It's a bit too ridiculous and doesn't really fit. IMO.

Yeah, i know that's it's impressive from a technical standpoint but who cares if it doesn't fit anyway (like you said).

[olddtfan51@gmail.com]

Does anyone feel like we spend so much time analyzing this album that it becomes hard to just sit back and listen to it. 

[hefdaddy42]

Does anyone feel like we spend so much time analyzing this album that it becomes hard to just sit back and listen to it. 

No.  But congrats on your username.   

[Sycsa]

It's really impressive from a technical standpoint, but I'm not a big fan of that section either. It's a bit too ridiculous and doesn't really fit. IMO.

It's quite the contrary from where I'm standing. The tickle section is one of my favorites precisely because of the context and juxtaposition. Having one of most technical DT sections followed by such a simple groove is a brilliant contrast and makes that part exciting as hell. Moments like this is why I enjoy prog.

[hefdaddy42]

It's really impressive from a technical standpoint, but I'm not a big fan of that section either. It's a bit too ridiculous and doesn't really fit. IMO.

It's quite the contrary from where I'm standing. The tickle section is one of my favorites precisely because of the context and juxtaposition. Having one of most technical DT sections followed by such a simple groove is a brilliant contrast and makes that part exciting as hell. Moments like this is why I enjoy prog.

I agree completely.

[Polarbear]

It's really impressive from a technical standpoint, but I'm not a big fan of that section either. It's a bit too ridiculous and doesn't really fit. IMO.

It's quite the contrary from where I'm standing. The tickle section is one of my favorites precisely because of the context and juxtaposition. Having one of most technical DT sections followed by such a simple groove is a brilliant contrast and makes that part exciting as hell. Moments like this is why I enjoy prog.

You said it just about perfectly. Stuff like the "tickle section" is what makes prog-music interesting to me!

[Outcrier]

Now i get why you like SC and BC but dont like DT12 very much.

[Bertielee]

Now i get why you like SC and BC but dont like DT12 very much.

Your remark doesn't stand. At all. I like the tickle section in LNF a lot but don't like SC or BC&SL. And i absolutely love DT 12.

B.Lee

[Outcrier]

Oh i see. I think that section and most SC and BC&SL is bad but that not what i meant with what i've said.
What i've meant is this: as Polarbear like the "tickle section", maybe that one of the various reasons that he likes that two albums more than DT12 (as they have more crazy technical sections like that).

[hefdaddy42]

Now i get why you like SC and BC but dont like DT12 very much.

Your remark doesn't stand. At all. I like the tickle section in LNF a lot but don't like SC or BC&SL. And i absolutely love DT 12.

B.Lee

Same here.  I don't think this example is a reason whatsoever.

[fadetoblackdude7]

I seriously cannot get enough of this record....it is an absolute masterpiece, and a top 3 album for me!

[N4Player]

A couple of weeks in and I have upgraded my personal ranking from meh to decent. This will be a mid pack album for me in ranking. TLG and TBP have really grown on me and are excellent songs. TEI & BTV stand head and shoulders above all, while IT has tremendous parts, but the symphony drains all the energy and momentum. FAS and EM are disappointing and I just cannot stand listening to STR and AFTR. The stuff I like has me listing to it over and over again and I won't be burning out on it any time soon. That's a good thing in my book.

[Rhayader]

This review describes perfectly how I feel about the record:

https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1054543

[manticore999]

This review describes perfectly how I feel about the record:

https://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1054543

Couldn't agree more. It's better than BC&SL, TOT, SC and 8VM, but that's not saying much.  Those albums were awful, IMO.  This one is OK, at best, but I probably won't be listening to it much.  3 or 4 times was enough.

[j]

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to be leveled at this album, quite a few of which I have myself.  But positive or negative, that review is a complete joke.  Saying something is "uninspired" or "unimaginative" as he does repeatedly is about the most vacuous, meaningless description of music I can think of.  "Amateurish" also pops up multiple times (ironically).  It makes me wonder why someone would go to the trouble of writing a review with so few coherent things to say about the content of the thing being reviewed.

-J

[sylvinception]

It's been a little while now that DT12 is out, so I give my definitive ranking of the songs.

1 - The Bigger Picture and Surrender to Reason == >> I love them so much that I can not decide the order 
2 - Illumination Theory
3 - FAS + The Enemy Inside
4 - The Looking Glass
5 - Behind The Veil
================================
6 - Along For The Ride (one of their weakest ballads in my opinion)
================================
7 - Enigma Machine ("Enigma", no doubt, that's the perfect word for describe this "thing"... )

If DT 12 is not a masterpiece, it definitely gives high hopes for the future of the band.

...Exept for the production of course!!

[Kotowboy]

It would be cool if - when you bought the HD Tracks - you got sent a printed CD in the post - which has the artwork printed on but you could burn it yourself.

So you download the uncompressed WAVs and burn it to your blank CD and then you don't just have a brand new Dream Theater album  on a

CD-R in a spindle with " New Dream Theater album " written on it in permanent marker.

Ranking : Still too early for me. I'm not binge-ing on the album so as to not get tired of it but all the songs are too good.

Surrender To Reason or Along For The Ride are my two least favourites though. That's not because I don't like ballads.

I'm always going on about how much I love The Answer Lies Within, I Walk Beside You etc.

I just think those two ballads are a bit weaker than their best. If those two songs were both as good as Lines In The Sand - this album

would be *extraordinary*.

I wasn't bothered by the CD audio - I like big drums. But yeah the HD Tracks sounds beautiful.

[JediKnight1969]

I am one of the “dissapointed” listeners, and one of the reasons is, IMHO, the record begins with two unrepresentative songs: FAS is more a live show intro and doesn’t really fit in this album. Also, TEI is a very heavy beginning for a not so heavy CD. What I did was a new playlist:

1-   Behind the veil
2-   The looking glass
3-   Along for the ride
4-   Surrender to reason
5-   Enigma machine
6-   The bigger picture
7-   Illumination theory
8-   The enemy inside

I feel this song progression more natural. I think of the easter egg as an “epilogue” to IT, and TEI as the “real” easter egg, which is more enjoyable, for me at least. 

 

[BlobVanDam]

I am one of the “dissapointed” listeners, and one of the reasons is, IMHO, the record begins with two unrepresentative songs: FAS is more a live show intro and doesn’t really fit in this album. Also, TEI is a very heavy beginning for a not so heavy CD.

I think the album is heavy enough overall that TEI doesn't at all seem out of place. It's a much heavier album overall than ADTOE. It's all part of variety. Some songs will be heavier, some will be lighter, but no two songs will be the same. But they all fit together with a common sound.

And I think FAS is the perfect opener to the album. I think of it almost as a self titled track, an instrumental opener to the self titled album that pumps you up for what is about to come (in this case, an equally high energy metal track), making for an excellent 1-2 punch. It's one of my favourite tracks on the album, and I have no idea why some people are of the opinion that it doesn't fit the album. Are people's mindsets being too influenced by DT's comments about it being intended as a live opening track?

And I really don't think you could follow up a big epic with a track like TEI. As an opener, it's a great high energy lead-in, but as a closer, it would be anti-climatic and yet too much imo. It's too high energy.

[Tick]

I am one of the “dissapointed” listeners, and one of the reasons is, IMHO, the record begins with two unrepresentative songs: FAS is more a live show intro and doesn’t really fit in this album. Also, TEI is a very heavy beginning for a not so heavy CD. What I did was a new playlist:

1-   Behind the veil
2-   The looking glass
3-   Along for the ride
4-   Surrender to reason
5-   Enigma machine
6-   The bigger picture
7-   Illumination theory
8-   The enemy inside

I feel this song progression more natural. I think of the easter egg as an “epilogue” to IT, and TEI as the “real” easter egg, which is more enjoyable, for me at least. 

 

FAS is a cool opening as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't fit? I like it and I think it starts the record nicely.

[Kotowboy]

I love False Awakening and I think it sets up The Enemy Inside which is the first "proper" song.

I can't imagine ever complaining about "too much" good music on an album.


Furthermore - I hope DT keep up this recent trend of more medium length tracks VS less tracks of 12+ minutes.

Say if they ever do an album which is 5x15minute songs. They would have to be 5 outstanding songs for that album to not get boring really quickly.

[Ruba]

Second listen. Yeah I know, but I was kinda underwhelmed and had lots of other albums.

I'm almost ready to give it a "decent". But again, I need still more time to see the bigg... no puns this time.

False Awakening Suite is one of my favourites on the album. Great opener and something different. Wish it was more orchestra-heavy though.

The Enemy Inside is a kickass song. The verses are damn great. Don't care about the keyboard solo however.

The Looking Glass sounded a lot better than on the first time. It is a slight Limelight-ripoff (heck, the both even tell about fame, although from different points of view), but pretty enjoyable and unique enough.

Enigma Machine is a cool instrumental, not as good as Stream of Consciousness or The Ytsé Jam, but one of their best still. Lovely main riff. I think one of Jordan's lead sounds is similar to the one on The Great Debate and the slow guitar melody reminds me of TMOLS.

Everyone's hyping about The Bigger Picture. My CD must have some different song. All I hear is a fucking mess of a song with a great chorus, but nothing much else. Or, "What if caught in a moment..." is cool too. But hey, i.e. Voices took about two years to open, so I haven't given up hope with this one yet.

Behind the Veil is alright. Excellent intro, but the Metallica riff at 2:16 almost kills the song for me. One of the worst JP riffs ever, and I don't like the chords Jordan is playing over it in the verses. The chorus is nice.

Surrender to Reason... ehh. I want to like this song, but I can't. It's all over the place and lacks direction. In one and half minutes or so it has gone through three different sections which all feel like a different song to me. Again great chorus, but it doesn't help. The acoustic verse is one of my favourite parts on the whole album though.

Along for the Ride is very good, but I think it might have been even better if it was completely acoustic. And that would have given more variety to the album. Another thing I thought was, why the hell they didn't use the orchestra in the last chorus? Now that had been awesome. Anyway, one of the standouts on the album.

Illumination Theory is still the best song on the album, and the only song that has potential to become a classic to my mind. This time I wasn't that wild about the two first sections, but The Embracing Circle and The Pursuit of Truth (love the Cygnus X-1 kickstart) are now officially the best seven (?) minutes of the album. The wah-wah guitar solo in the latter is the best solo on the album.

If you don't care about my blabbering, here's my current song ranking in nutshell:

 
Illumination Theory

 
False Awakening Suite
Along for the Ride
Enigma Machine
The Enemy Inside

 
The Looking Glass

 
Behind the Veil

 
The Bigger Picture

 
Surrender to Reason