Poll

First thoughts?

Instant classic
184 (27.1%)
Very strong
314 (46.3%)
Decent
98 (14.5%)
Meh
41 (6%)
Disappointing
41 (6%)

Total Members Voted: 647

Author Topic: What are your thoughts on DT12?  (Read 154337 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline son_ov_hades

  • Posts: 396
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1190 on: June 17, 2014, 01:16:14 PM »
I'm listening to it now for the first time in a few months and I love it even more than I did. For me its the best they've done in a long time, at least since Six Degrees but I might even like it more than that album.
"Ok, these guys are only catering to the hardcore fanbase that already bought the $8000 meet and greet package complete with signed LaBrie eye patch"

Offline Tick

  • It's time to make a change
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9762
  • Gender: Male
  • Just another tricky day for you
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1191 on: June 18, 2014, 10:20:46 AM »
I'm listening to it now for the first time in a few months and I love it even more than I did. For me its the best they've done in a long time, at least since Six Degrees but I might even like it more than that album.
This, 100%
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


Offline AngelBack

  • I'm officially a lard......
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 1079
  • Gender: Male
  • Why you want beef with broccoli ?
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1192 on: June 18, 2014, 11:02:03 AM »
Little different take on the topic.  Curious to know what songs have improved and likewise declined for DTF'ers since release.  Most of my first loves have remained, but TEI has fallen a bit for me and EM and BTV have risen immensely over time.
But the arc of your life will still be profound

Offline Nearmyth

  • Posts: 518
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1193 on: June 18, 2014, 11:34:33 AM »
Enigma Machine, The Looking Glass, and maybe BTV have probably risen for me

IT, STR, and TBP remain my top 3

The rest are just there.
"Now I'm not one to soon forget
And I bet I never will...

WAAHH WAAHH DIGA DIGA WAAHH WAAHH"

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1194 on: June 18, 2014, 12:29:17 PM »
Little different take on the topic.  Curious to know what songs have improved and likewise declined for DTF'ers since release.  Most of my first loves have remained, but TEI has fallen a bit for me and EM and BTV have risen immensely over time.

There is not a single song that I like less.  But there are quite a few songs I like even more now.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline JayOctavarium

  • I used to be a whorejerk
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10055
  • Gender: Male
  • But then I took a Hef to the knee...
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1195 on: June 18, 2014, 12:38:30 PM »
I don't think I've listened to it for a few months now... since seeing them live.


It's slowly slipping away
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline Lolzeez

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4865
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1196 on: June 18, 2014, 01:19:44 PM »
Haven't listened to it since like last January. Maybe once before i see them live. I just think it's decent. Not as good as ADTOE.

Offline Dublagent66

  • Devouring consciousness...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9695
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Digesting power
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1197 on: June 18, 2014, 03:57:07 PM »
Here's my thoughts by track:

FAS - Not a bad intro but sounds like something Symphony X would do, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but not really DTish at all.
TEI - Cool song with classic JP solo, but lyrics sound too much like Panic Attack.  "I feel like I'm in danger".....AGAIN!

TLG - Another cool DT sounding classic resembling I&W type stuff.  Another Classic JP solo.  I like it.

EM - Hmmm, wasn't all that bad until I heard references to what sounds like something they picked up off the cutting room floor during the BC&SL sessions.  Bad idea.

TBP - Intro has cool riffs and song overall has some good moments.  Chorus is relatively catchy, but yet again I'm hearing references to material I've already heard before.

BTV - Probably my favorite on the album and one of the coolest intros I've ever heard.  Good riffs and chorus.  Excellent solo section.  Too bad the rest of album isn't nearly this good.

STR - Not bad.  Has a few moments.  1st JP solo not too original sounding.  JM has some good Geddy Lee type sounding bass lines and 2nd JP solo sounds like Alex Lifeson, coincidence?  Restless angels?  Where have I heard about angels before?  Too much repitition at the end of the song.  Just end it already.

AFTR - I was almost enjoying this song until the old familiar JR patch kicked in.  That ruined for me.  Just lazy on JR's part.  The rest is pretty generic.

IT - Well, this could possibly be the biggest epic failure in DT history.  As I've mentioned before, every part of the song sounds like cut & paste from previous material.  I call it the shattered fortess of DT epics.  A song resembling a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit.  The ambient sounds before the slow transition.  Heard it all before.  No originality at all and the worst part is, it's the closer.  WTF???  Sorry, this song does absolutely nothing for me and doesn't even come close to what a DT epics have been in the past.
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 15317
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1198 on: June 18, 2014, 05:39:00 PM »
Every once in awhile, I pull it out, and I'm always impressed with how good it is, and how well it's aged.    Just an incredible "out of the ball park" album.  :hefdaddy

That being said (like someone else mentioned) I guessed I have "moved on" a bit from DT myself.   They didn't get worse (well...for SC & BCSL they kinda did) but I have just gone on to other things.   The same thing happened to me with Rush...you love a band so much that they become a large majority of your listening habits for 15 years or so...and then you just kinda fizzle a bit.   You don't stop liking them.   Every time you hear their stuff, it's like a wonderful visit from old friend.   You don't stop loving them, you just don't hang out as often as you used to. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Skeever

  • Posts: 2915
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1199 on: June 18, 2014, 06:02:53 PM »
My thoughts are... "not very good"

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1200 on: June 18, 2014, 06:12:54 PM »
I think I'm about a third of the way between decent and meh but my vote is on decent.
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline PetFish

  • Posts: 1714
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1201 on: June 18, 2014, 06:49:49 PM »
AFTR - I was almost enjoying this song until the old familiar JR patch kicked in.  That ruined for me.  Just lazy on JR's part.  The rest is pretty generic.

I've never understood why people say this kind of thing.  Petrucci's lead tone is the same for almost every solo and nobody complains but when Rudess uses a similar-sounding lead tone he gets bitched at for it.  Why?

Pretty much every guitar player has "their signature sound" and use it almost exclusively except for some odd sections.  That's how we can identify so easily even if 20 different "famous" players played the same simple song (ie. Row Row Row Your Boat) we'd know which one is Satriani, which one is Vai, which one is Petrucci, and so on.

Keyboard players have their sound as well but I'm not as familiar with them.  I can identify Derek Sherinians' lead sound easily cuz it's so unique and that seems to be "ok" but Rudess can't use the same lead sound a few times for some reason.

I don't get it.

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

  • Posts: 2227
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1202 on: June 18, 2014, 07:04:59 PM »
I think it's odd how every time I distance myself from this particular album, I start to think that its interest has waned on me, but whenever I return to give it another spin, I'm still as impressed as ever (or even more so). I think it's pretty important to not overplay it, however, because I do get the impression that with DT12, its interest will fade on you given enough incessant plays. While a great record, it's not the kind of masterpiece that can be listened to constantly and constantly, which isn't really a bad thing at all considering how very few records ever come close to reaching that level of quality anyways. Maybe every time DT comes out with a new album these days, they've set the bar so high for some people that everyone's expecting another album on the level of I&W or SFAM--an idea which I'm not very keen on. All I ask in a DT album is one that holds my interest throughout, something that DT12 accomplishes ever so nicely.

Since Dublagent did it, why not? Just a quick track run-down with my own thoughts as they've changed:

FAS - Cool track and a great way of opening the album as a whole. The symphonic metal vibe they were going for here understandably alienates some of the fanbase, but I could really only call a few moments on here "bland". Overall, it's got the momentum and energy to pull you into the album and take you along for the ride (hardy har har har).

TEI - Initially, I felt this was just a typical DT metal-masher. I liked it but didn't think of it that highly. It's somehow aged quite well and picks the momentum up from the previous song and even fuels it further--this flow works astoundingly well. A lot of wonderful riffs and hooks--JP's guitar tone here is just so goddamn tasty.

TLG - Another great song that is amusingly reminiscent of I&W-era stuff. I do enjoy how it draws clear influence from their earlier work but remains something unique in tone (at least for DT). The solo is great and really shows how JP is capable of writing some emotional stuff without it resorting to the usual "wankery" that DT gets a lot of shit for. If there are negatives to this song, it's the somewhat abrupt ending and how they wear their influence on their sleeves perhaps a bit too ostensibly.

EM - I feel like this is this album's TDOE (though not exactly that wacky). A lot of elements on here remind me of BC&SL-DT sludginess, which I don't mind too terribly considering it's not a sound they dabble too much into even in this instrumental. Overall, I like it. It's heavy, fast, crushing, and MM delivers a great performance.

TBP - THAT CHORUS. I'm absolutely in love with it and it's definitely my favorite chorus on the album. This track showcases their beautifully melodic side in a wonderfully anthemic way. The outro sounds like it would work so well in a live setting too.

BTV - The ambient intro makes me long for the day that DT might step their toes into new territory, because they demonstrated the know-how in that first minute of this track. The way it segues into that heavy, dramatic riff--that's definitely a highlight of the album for me as a whole. The chorus is also terrific and a runner-up for "best chorus" on this album. JP delivers another fantastic guitar solo that just continues to build and build and just explodes back into the final chorus. That intensity is something else. Definitely my favorite non-epic song on the album, and a modern DT classic at that.

STR - I don't mind the obvious nods to their influences as much as you might think, but there are instances where it distracts from the music their putting together rather than complimenting it. That being said, this is still an enjoyable song. It's got a catchy chorus, a groovy instrumental passage, and Mr. Myung's bass is tastily audible here. I often clump together TBP, BTV, and STR as a trio in my mind when considering the flow of DT12, and while STR is probably my least favorite of the three, it's still one I enjoy.

AFTR - This track I can't necessarily pinpoint any overtly positive aspects, nor any really audible faults. JR's solo does still feel a bit like "Beneath the Surface keyboard solo part two" and I don't really dig it all that much. It doesn't totally ruin the song for me, but it brings it down a notch or two since it's not a particular style of his that I'm really in love with. This might be my least favorite song on the album. Not that it's bad by any means--I enjoy the lyrics quite a bit and the chorus is nice, but DT have done better in the ballads department.

IT - Now we get to the big dog. Trying to keep it relatively short: The beginning is riff factory and with MM just chugging it on, it's a really thrilling way to start it off. It's worth noting that JP delivers one of his best riffs period around the 3:40 mark. :hefdaddy A little bit farther in, there are some verses I'm don't dig a whole lot on the melodic side of things, but the following instrumental passage is definitely one of DT's best in general. Regarding the incredibly polarizing orchestral section, all I can say about it is that the preceding ambient approach sets the mood exceptionally and the piece is not only beautiful but emotionally riveting in ways that still confuse me. The section that follows feels very much like a plunge into the depths of agonizing strife and the drama it creates sends chills even still. JLB fucking wails it and the instrumental passage here is just as riveting as the one before the orchestral section. At this point DT have a momentum set up and they're not gonna let up, or at least it seems so until it eases into the final section. Truly, a worthy outro to another fantastic DT epic. Is it their best epic? Probably not. I feel ACOS and 8V still overtake it by a decent enough margin, but now I can comfortably put this as my #3 in terms of DT epics. I can understand the polarizing reaction this got from fans, but dammit it if it doesn't me teary-eyed.

The flow of this album is excellent. I feel this is the best way they could have arranged each of these songs track-by-track and the end result is akin to a journey. I can't help but just listen to nothing but silence once those final piano chords fade out, in the after-glow of something great that just came and went. There are lots of emotional highs, adrenaline-surging moments, and beautifully crafted sounds throughout this thing. Is it a perfect album? DT's best? No and no. There are surely flaws, but listening to this over half a year later since its release, I'm genuinely pleased with how it turned out. If time is good to it, it will surely go down as a DT classic.

So I know I said I'd keep this all short. But I tried. :lol Kudos to you if you actually read all of that.

tl;dr - It's pretty good.

Offline Rodni Demental

  • Posts: 1113
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1203 on: June 18, 2014, 07:42:09 PM »
AFTR - I was almost enjoying this song until the old familiar JR patch kicked in.  That ruined for me.  Just lazy on JR's part.  The rest is pretty generic.

I've never understood why people say this kind of thing.  Petrucci's lead tone is the same for almost every solo and nobody complains but when Rudess uses a similar-sounding lead tone he gets bitched at for it.  Why?

Pretty much every guitar player has "their signature sound" and use it almost exclusively except for some odd sections.  That's how we can identify so easily even if 20 different "famous" players played the same simple song (ie. Row Row Row Your Boat) we'd know which one is Satriani, which one is Vai, which one is Petrucci, and so on.

Keyboard players have their sound as well but I'm not as familiar with them.  I can identify Derek Sherinians' lead sound easily cuz it's so unique and that seems to be "ok" but Rudess can't use the same lead sound a few times for some reason.

I don't get it.

Thank you, you saved me having to rant about this and this is pretty much exactly how I feel.  :biggrin:

Besides, I like the keyboard tone in AFTR. Also JR has used the 'snarling pig' organs and his typical synth sound (the one that became quite prominent after ToT) multiple times in lots of songs and yet that newer patch gets singled out for some reason.

Offline Kotowboy

  • Yes THAT Kotowboy.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28561
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1204 on: June 19, 2014, 01:28:45 PM »
I think it's something to do with the fact that Petrucci has all round good tone that you wouldn't wanna mess with too much -

- but Rudess has probably hundreds of sounds at his disposal and has used the same lead sound on two songs.

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1205 on: June 19, 2014, 03:15:35 PM »
The difference between the the Pig and the Moog-ish BTS sound is that the pig is pretty much his signature. The issue is that he's used the exact same sound twice and only twice, both times in very similar musical feels.
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1206 on: June 19, 2014, 03:22:13 PM »
Weirdly, the single one time where I thought the snarly pig really fit was on LMR.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline tiagodon

  • Posts: 298
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1207 on: June 19, 2014, 03:51:54 PM »
How are the songs of DT12 doing on stage? Has anyone attended one of the shows of the current tour?

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1208 on: June 19, 2014, 04:52:51 PM »
How are the songs of DT12 doing on stage? Has anyone attended one of the shows of the current tour?
Can we discuss setlists now without spoiler warnings?

Whatever.

SPOILER ALERT

False Awakening Suite is pretty fuckin' cool (sans the electric instruments) with Blob's vid showing the various album covers animated.
The Enemy Inside is kind of like A Nightmare to Remember. Cool, loud, and energetic sudden opening. Is the only song you'll hear before your ears grow tired, so Petrucci's TOOOOOONE will sound weird at first as it's loud and bounces off the venue walls.
The Looking Glass is a cool one. Can't recall anything special about it but it's a crowd pleaser.
Enigma machine is cool, especially with the DT vs DT video and the drum solo
Along for the Ride is a good way to wrap up the first set before the first epic brings it to a grand finale.
And of course Illumination Theory is amazing live even if it's a fully prerecorded orchestra.
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline mikeyd23

  • Posts: 5479
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1209 on: June 19, 2014, 05:00:31 PM »
I generally agree, overall I felt the DT12 songs translated very well live. My appreciation for The Enemy Inside actually grew a ton having watched the band play it in person, and I'd say the same for the Looking Glass. A big reason for that was getting to watch MM play those songs, it really brought them to life!

IT was absolutely breathtaking to watch live, it truly was it's own little complete experience.


Offline PixelDream

  • Posts: 2917
  • Gender: Male
  • Maestro
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1210 on: June 19, 2014, 06:13:05 PM »
I wasn't crazy about TEI but it has cemented itself as the definitive post-MP song for me. It's a good song, even if one would take away the prog or the heavy (it'll work in an unplugged version). Still, I look at DT12 as a superficial version of the DT concept. They can do better and tread new ground but unfortunately they surely won't at this point in their career.

Illumination Theory has some supermegacool parts amd it's all great fun, but the last section is just tragic. They totally got it wrong there. The 'you must suffer through the pain' part. I can handle all the cheese in the world, but I'm not buying this.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 06:20:54 PM by PixelDream »
Not 'Down To F***', but 'Dream Theater Forums' .

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1211 on: June 19, 2014, 06:42:01 PM »
<Insert 12 page discussion over use of the word cheese>

Also Illumination Theory still feels to much like a medley to me. Even worse than the standalone Shattered Fortress IMO
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline rumborak

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 26664
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1212 on: June 19, 2014, 06:59:27 PM »
False Awakening Suite was fucking awesome. The video is super-awesome, and it sends shivers down your spine when you're there. Interestingly, I think on the DVD it won't translate nearly as well.
TEI, honestly, is kinda a wash. JP's opening riff is complete muddiness live (even on the CD is straggling dangerously close to that). After that it picks up again, but I gotta be perfectly honest, except IT, I was somewhat happy when the DT 12 chapter was over.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1213 on: June 20, 2014, 06:02:55 PM »
False Awakening Suite was fucking awesome. The video is super-awesome, and it sends shivers down your spine when you're there. Interestingly, I think on the DVD it won't translate nearly as well.
The key is getting the audience reactions to the albums in there.
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline dragonmaster715

  • Posts: 44
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1214 on: June 20, 2014, 08:47:40 PM »
I love DT12. In my opinion, it was a significant improvement over ADTOE, and it was more consistantly good than BCSL.

Offline Dublagent66

  • Devouring consciousness...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9695
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Digesting power
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1215 on: June 22, 2014, 01:14:29 PM »
I think it's something to do with the fact that Petrucci has all round good tone that you wouldn't wanna mess with too much -

- but Rudess has probably hundreds of sounds at his disposal and has used the same lead sound on two songs.

You nailed it right there.  JR should've done something different.  Instead of repeating the same one already heard in another song.  DT12 already has too much repetition as it is.
"Two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
"There's not a pill you can take.  There's not a class you can go to.  Stupid is foreva."  -Ron White

Offline nikatapi

  • Posts: 1641
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1216 on: June 22, 2014, 02:17:59 PM »
While i have my fair share of criticism for JR's sounds, the moog is not one of the ones i would criticize. It's classic, sounds cool and it's fine in the context of the songs.

Offline tiagodon

  • Posts: 298
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1217 on: June 22, 2014, 08:35:46 PM »
I don't understand why Rudess insists on making his keyboard playing sound like a guitar!

Offline Grizz

  • Posts: 1666
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1218 on: June 22, 2014, 10:36:31 PM »
We're talking about Moog sounds here, the polar opposite.
TBH I think Sherinian was worse in that regard
"I raised the baby, I changed the baby's diapers.  Whenever the baby had projectile diarrhea, I was there in the line of fire.  I even got a little in my mouth!  I sacrificed so much for my baby.  Now my baby hates me and thinks Mike Mangini is its real father!"

Offline Sycsa

  • Posts: 1898
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1219 on: June 23, 2014, 04:07:42 AM »
Both of them had guitar-like leads, but Sherinian had a filter effect on his, which made it sound very much like a synth (Trial of Tears solo, for instance). Rudess' Train of Thought lead (the one he uses in his Budokan solo), coupled with the wah-wah sounded so much like a guitar, there was almost no point to be played on a keyboard. His sound improved in that regard later on.


Sycsa is perhaps the most brilliant and insightful man I have ever encountered.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1220 on: June 23, 2014, 04:25:26 AM »
Both of them had guitar-like leads, but Sherinian had a filter effect on his, which made it sound very much like a synth (Trial of Tears solo, for instance). Rudess' Train of Thought lead (the one he uses in his Budokan solo), coupled with the wah-wah sounded so much like a guitar, there was almost no point to be played on a keyboard. His sound improved in that regard later on.

Rudess only used the wah during the Train of Thought era, when it fitted the intentionally very heavy sound well.
Sherinian always used the wah, including the Trial of Tears solo you mentioned. DS is admittedly heavily inspired by many guitarists, and the guitar approach is much more a signature of his sound than it ever was JR's.
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Sycsa

  • Posts: 1898
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1221 on: June 23, 2014, 05:34:25 AM »
Both of them had guitar-like leads, but Sherinian had a filter effect on his, which made it sound very much like a synth (Trial of Tears solo, for instance). Rudess' Train of Thought lead (the one he uses in his Budokan solo), coupled with the wah-wah sounded so much like a guitar, there was almost no point to be played on a keyboard. His sound improved in that regard later on.

Rudess only used the wah during the Train of Thought era, when it fitted the intentionally very heavy sound well.
Sherinian always used the wah, including the Trial of Tears solo you mentioned. DS is admittedly heavily inspired by many guitarists, and the guitar approach is much more a signature of his sound than it ever was JR's.
He also had it on 8vm (TROA). The wah isn't a problem in and of itself, it's just a tool, but sounding too much like a guitar is, even if it was fitting for Train of Thought. Derek's lead, despite all that you mentioned, always had a distinct, synth-like character.

Talking general approach and signature sound is in a different ballpark, in that regard I have a huge fondness for both. Overall, I still prefer Jordan, but Derek has a really tasteful approach when it comes to sound and his affection towards classic, analog, electromechanical keyboards (Hammond, Mellotron, Moog, Rhodes) shines through all his solo/Planet X records and even FII (how great is that Mellotron sound underneath the Peruvian Skies chorus, or that gritty organ glissando at the beginning of Just Let Me Breathe). Using a tonewheel Hammond B3 with Leslie speakers, as opposed to emulating it digitally as Jordan does, means a world of difference to me in sound quality. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d50hvZnLv4Q) There's plenty organ in DT as well, I wish Jordan would add a Leslie speaker to his arsenal, would be a huge improvement.


Sycsa is perhaps the most brilliant and insightful man I have ever encountered.

Offline BlobVanDam

  • Future Boy
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 38940
  • Gender: Male
  • Transform and rock out!
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1222 on: June 23, 2014, 07:23:07 AM »
Both of them had guitar-like leads, but Sherinian had a filter effect on his, which made it sound very much like a synth (Trial of Tears solo, for instance). Rudess' Train of Thought lead (the one he uses in his Budokan solo), coupled with the wah-wah sounded so much like a guitar, there was almost no point to be played on a keyboard. His sound improved in that regard later on.

Rudess only used the wah during the Train of Thought era, when it fitted the intentionally very heavy sound well.
Sherinian always used the wah, including the Trial of Tears solo you mentioned. DS is admittedly heavily inspired by many guitarists, and the guitar approach is much more a signature of his sound than it ever was JR's.
He also had it on 8vm (TROA). The wah isn't a problem in and of itself, it's just a tool, but sounding too much like a guitar is, even if it was fitting for Train of Thought. Derek's lead, despite all that you mentioned, always had a distinct, synth-like character.

I didn't think TROAE used a wah pedal, at least I've never heard it! If it does, it's certainly much more subtle than on the ToT leads, as there's only one run that to me sounds possibly wah-ish (is that a word?). I think most of the tonal variations there are just JR's Kurzweil lead tone having the feedback overtones. If it does, I think that would be the only studio moment outside of ToT where he uses one? I'm not sure if his rig has included a wah pedal since the ToT tour, and he wasn't using the Kurz on the 8V tour onwards either, so it sounded different live regardless. Wah is generally not an element of his sound, even if he used one heavily during that short period.

Derek's tone had no more of a synth-like character than JR's does, aside from the "cheapness" of it, but both are still very synth-y sounding at their core. I'd never mistake either of them for guitars! The expressiveness and wah are what push it, rather than the tone imo.
I personally much prefer JR's sound (The Kurz one, not as much the Oasys one), being a much warmer, thicker sound, and also being JR's own custom-made distinctive tone, as opposed to the harsh Casio through a wah pedal tone of DS. The Kurzweil in particular also had a lot of expressiveness that gave it that more organic sound that made it feel less keyboard-y, such as the aftertouch harmonics, and the pitch ribbon that he put to great effect (Fatal Tragedy!).

In general, I find Derek's style is much more guitary though, in terms of note choice and stylistic expression. The BMS solo has guitar-like trills, tapping, dive-bombs, tremolo "picking", sustain feedback etc. His style screams keyboardist who wishes he was a guitarist. :lol That's always been a core part of his background, and his musical interests.

In the case of JR, his background is more classical/prog rock, and that kind of musical role. The ToT solos in particular were very guitary (which I love!), but looking at DT's progression, I think that's also largely JR adapting to fit their heavier music, that isn't naturally his style. Some of the really heavy stuff doesn't seem to leave JR a lot of room to explore musically, so they often end up consisting of doubled riffs and the big shreddy leads. I think that says as much about DT's modern music as it does JR.
Even on ToT, he was just as comfortable doing a grand piano solo over a heavy section as he was busting out some wild wailing noise, when it allowed.

Obviously JR has had a lot of guitar-y leads over the years, but I feel like it's more of a fallback for him on heavier music that isn't his natural state, rather than the default as it is for DS. When JR has a chance, he just as often does the moog solo, or the piano break, or any other random instrument you can think of, or whatever new tech he's exploring. When it sounds "guitary", I think it comes more from his pursuit of expressiveness as a musician than the pursuit of guitaryness, which is the case with DS.

I didn't intend to make that so wordy. :lol
Only King could mis-spell a LETTER.
Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline tiagodon

  • Posts: 298
  • Gender: Male
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1223 on: June 23, 2014, 09:11:36 AM »
Well, I think Rudess once had a dream of being a guitar player!  :lol
People always ask me: is that a guitar or a keyboard in the intro of On the Back of Angels?
That's so out of place!

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: What are your thoughts on DT12?
« Reply #1224 on: June 23, 2014, 09:44:54 AM »
My appreciation for The Enemy Inside actually grew a ton having watched the band play it in person, and I'd say the same for the Looking Glass. A big reason for that was getting to watch MM play those songs, it really brought them to life!

I agree.  Both of these songs were in the lower half of the DT12 songs for me, and seeing them live gave me an entirely new appreciation.  During sound check for our show, they were only going to do OTBOA, sans vocals, but then Mike wanted to run through a bit of TEI.  Being right up front and not having crowd noise or other distractions, I was amazed at how huge the song sounded.  It got me completely pumped for hearing it in its entirety once the show started, and it did not disappoint in the least.

False Awakening Suite was fucking awesome. The video is super-awesome, and it sends shivers down your spine when you're there. Interestingly, I think on the DVD it won't translate nearly as well.

Agreed on all counts (although I hope it will translate well to DVD).

TEI, honestly, is kinda a wash. JP's opening riff is complete muddiness live...

I can see how that might be the case in some venues.  Thankfully, when I saw them in SF, the sound was GREAT, and TEI benefitted greatly from the clear, crisp sound.  It sounded very good there, and JP's monster tone really shown through (although I think he may have gotten a bit of help in that regard for that particular show).
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."