Self Titled Album Discussion thread [Expect Spoilers]

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

One of my fave moments :

That Metallica style riff in Behind The Veil which has that pushed note at the end of each phrase - and the drums come back in on beat 3 of the next phrase.

 

Ahh yea, love that part! 

[ReaperKK]

Man I need to find more music that's like the DT12 easter egg.

[Viking of the Sagas]

Levin / Minnemann / Rudess trumps DT12 easily.

[BlobVanDam]

One of my fave moments :

That Metallica style riff in Behind The Veil which has that pushed note at the end of each phrase - and the drums come back in on beat 3 of the next phrase.

 

Ahh yea, love that part! 

Yeah, that's a cool riff.

[RuRoRul]

Only had time for 2 or 3 full listens, only enough for Illusion Theory to stand out to me. I think I need more time to come to conclusions about the songs, except I don't think any bar IL have potential to be real top tier DT songs.

Illusion Theory however had some impact right away; DT really always bring their best stuff to the epics. The first section, the section after the strings (haven't had a chance to go back and look at the movement names yet) are great, and I didn't mind the ambient section much at all despite having some worries about how it would affect the song. Unfortunately its strange structure means the song is a bit disjointed to listen to, and while all the epics will always be a little disjointed I don't think the way IL is put together works as well as, say, the logical build up of Octavarium. The "easter egg" doesn't help matters - it's a nice enough piece of music, but either just include it properly in the album or make it an epilogue track. If I want 35 seconds of silence, I can switch off the music myself. In its current form the epilogue only leaves me wondering what to do with it so I can best listen to Illusion Theory without disrupting the flow of things.

As mentioned I don't have verdicts on the other songs yet, but right now when thinking of the album I'm mostly comparing it in quality to Octavarium and finding it coming up short, which puts it at most 8th in the DT album rankings, around SC and FII.

[maximumrocker]

I think in terms of flow, a big part of that is lack of familiarity with the song. ACOS feels like it flows great because we've heard it so many times. I think the same will be the case with IT.

I've had the song for months, so I definitely disagree there. I personally don't think flow is something that requires many listens to understand and judge either, unlike other parts of the musicality.

The reason IT doesn't flow well for me is that the break is not musical, ie. there is nothing to maintain continuity but noise. Then after the orchestral section, the only thing leading back to the band coming in is again just a long noise. No continuity or flow at all.
The middle section is completely isolated to me from the rest of the song, so I don't consider the second half of the song to be at all related to the first half. There's nothing to tie it together. I'm not sure the second half of the song even has a musical tie-in to the first half (if it does, it wasn't noticeable to me), something which all of their other recent epics do well.

I love pretty much every section of the song on its own, but I don't feel it at all as one piece of music. It's a bunch of amazing ideas not put together too well imo.

At first listen I agree with you. But as I got to hear it more and more there is a re-occurring melody, I dont have the times memorize are where they appear. I know someone else said this too, but im to lazy to go back and find their post.

Anyways, Usually for me after I get the musical book I enjoy the album more. I can visually see everything thats going progression wise, melody wise, time signature, re-occurring themes, variations of themes etc etc. Yes a piece might be "choppy" but also seeing whats happening underneath is a whole new level of understanding.

[ariich]

I think in terms of flow, a big part of that is lack of familiarity with the song. ACOS feels like it flows great because we've heard it so many times. I think the same will be the case with IT.

I've had the song for months, so I definitely disagree there. I personally don't think flow is something that requires many listens to understand and judge either, unlike other parts of the musicality.

The reason IT doesn't flow well for me is that the break is not musical, ie. there is nothing to maintain continuity but noise. Then after the orchestral section, the only thing leading back to the band coming in is again just a long noise. No continuity or flow at all.
The middle section is completely isolated to me from the rest of the song, so I don't consider the second half of the song to be at all related to the first half. There's nothing to tie it together. I'm not sure the second half of the song even has a musical tie-in to the first half (if it does, it wasn't noticeable to me), something which all of their other recent epics do well.

I love pretty much every section of the song on its own, but I don't feel it at all as one piece of music. It's a bunch of amazing ideas not put together too well imo.

I feel that a variation of the main intro theme also recurs in Surrender, Trust & Passion at 15:35. Much slower, but it's the same chord progression. First heavy riff is also at 15:00 or so.

Great spots, that awesome bluesy riff from the start is used underneath the whole instrumental/solo section from 14:00 onwards, and as you say the section that follows is the same chords (and generally similar) to the orchestral theme from the start.

EDIT: In fact, I'd need to dedicate some more time to it but it seems to me that most of Surrender, Trust & Passion is based on the same theme.

[Tomislav95]

After few listens I can say it might be one of my favorites. Everything I like about DT is there and some things I dislike in SC, BC&SL and some other songs are not here (JR's wankery on keys, pointless long instrumentals etc.). For me it's almost like I&W and Awake. I may write more about each song later when they get into my head.

[Nefarius]

Big round of replies after listening to the album for a second time while reading through this topic:

First listen reactions: More like a random copy and paste collection of various interludes.

This can be a copy paste comment for every single DT album review since the first one. I always laugh because when every new DT album gets released, there will always be a faction that says this exact same thing on every single album release.

The thing is it never felt like this much copy and paste to me before, even on BCASL and TOT. I definitely prefer songs that are written to songs that are constructed and I think most of this album sounds very constructed.

I was just wondering if you could be more specific as regards what you mean when you say 'filler' (a word you use a lot). I don't see it as a word of much substance.

You're right, filler can be a filler kind of word without much substance. And it's substance I miss on this album, a lot of it feels superficial, hollow, and empty. It's supposed and said to be more song focussed yet it feels like a mish mash of individual parts and ideas glued together without cohesion. It's like those overly technical interludes trying to connect two sections of a song that end up more like a wedge separating them. And for me DT12 is a collection of these wedges.

Illumination Theory tries so hard it hurts.  Really, just give up on the epic thing.  It's sounded forced every time going back to Octavarium and this is certainly no different.

It feels extremely forced, like "okay, and now let's do the epic, anyone got a few seconds worth of epic, let's connect the stuff until we're at twenty minutes" with crampy faces.

Ideas are thrown away randomly and they are not properly developed. Choruses are really weak, and that could be said for all vocal melodies, except for Illumination Theory. Even Petrucci's solos are uninspired and pretty forgettable.

There are no memorable vocal melodies, the riffs are all over the place and nothing stands out except for a few moments here and there. I really liked ADTOE and thought it was there best work since SDOIT but the music on this album is just putting me to sleep. The enemy within is the only song that I really like. I'll buy the album when it comes out just so that I have it in my DT collection, but I have no desire to see them play these songs live this time around.

Yeah, I think the lyrics / vocal melodies are the biggest weaknesses here. Just not much sticks out or is memorable. Hopefully as KevShmev suggested the album could just be a grower.

A few production issues aside I like ADTOE a lot too. It took me a few spins to really get into it but it had several moments that grabbed me and made me look forward to listening to them again. I miss those moments on DT12, there are only a few sound nuggets that made me raise an eyebrow. Hardly any of the vocal melodies, riffing and solo lines had any touching, moving, or inspiring impact on me in any way. Though I'm pretty sure though at least some of it will grow in time. Especially with the CD and 5.1 mix as the stream quality is something that affects my reception of the songs quite a lot.

Haven't listened yet, but to those who think Illumination Theory sounds disjointed (which it very well may), you can't really cite A Change of Seasons as an example of a "smoothly flowing" epic.  ACoS is my favorite DT song, but quite frankly it's full of abrupt transitions and strange pace changes.

I don't beg to differ, I demand to differ here. I'd even go as far as saying ACOS has more way cohesion as a song than most of the songs on DT12, which is a major reason I'm having a hard time feeling the music.

I'm shocked there are this many people disliking the album.

Ummm... I'd say 90% is over the top positive.


I also tried to listen to it quietly last night, but I fell asleep somewhere in the middle, so after two and a half times listening to it I'm afraid I'm still pretty meh about it.

And something I'd never have thought I'd say... MM the guy almost overdoses on great character and personality but his drumming has almost none of that, it feels so sterile and cold compared to his performance on ADTOE or his energy on stage.

Let's see if and how this album will grow. I can't always trust my initial reception of an album (as an example I disliked Ayreon's The Human Equation a lot on the first listen, but it clicked the second time and now it's the best fucking album of the decade 2001-2010 for me) but so far I'm still in a tunnel with no light at the end with DT12.

Greetings...
Nef

[JediKnight1969]

After many listens now i m sad to say that the album has not clicked the way i was hoping.

Hoping that the next album will blow me away like ADTOE in 2011

This. Sadly.

[Kotowboy]

  people already dismissing the album and looking froward to the next one after ONE DAY.

[zepp-head]

First listen verdict:

I've never been so indifferent and less excited about a release by my favorite band.  I hope this changes after a few more listens.

What won't change are my thoughts on the production.  The sound of this album has really hindered my ability to enjoy it thus far.

[RodrigoAltaf]

We seeeeek to understaaaaand...

[Kotowboy]

I thought that the sound of the album after the two singles would be a problem but It doesn't bother me at all.

It makes the album sound unique.

[DreamerTV]

We seeeeek to understaaaaand...

Yep, that part it's so sincerely dark i like it a lot.

[rude boy]

after the first listen, i can only say that it seems every member personally called me and asked what i want the new album to sound like.
this is IMHO easily the best material they've released since 6DOIT.
but it has to pass the car test (i have to wait for it to get out and then spin it a few times in my car- i've found that it is for some reason the ultimate listening experience for me)

in short, i like it very much! 

[theseoafs]

There's nothing to tie it I'm not sure the second half of the song even has a musical tie-in to the first half (if it does, it wasn't noticeable to me), something which all of their other recent epics do well

Well, it certainly does. Off the top of my head, the riff under the heavy instrumental section is a reprise of the live die kill riff, and the song ends over the same chords that begin the song.  I only heard the song for the first time yesterday so it's likely there are more tie ins that I missed.

[BlobVanDam]

There's nothing to tie it I'm not sure the second half of the song even has a musical tie-in to the first half (if it does, it wasn't noticeable to me), something which all of their other recent epics do well

Well, it certainly does. Off the top of my head, the riff under the heavy instrumental section is a reprise of the live die kill riff, and the song ends over the same chords that begin the song.  I only heard the song for the first time yesterday so it's likely there are more tie ins that I missed.

Ok fair enough, but it still doesn't feel at all cohesive as a song to me, despite having such great sections.

[philippaopao]

Honestly, I am amused about the dislike on the new album. Does it have something to do with it being self-titled, that makes people expect it way beyond the usual? Yes, it's not a concept album nor it does have the recurring qualities of one, but the songs are really solid, eclectic, and it flows very well, and this is coming from a fan who started his DT journey from SFAM, haha.

For me, the music is in the spirit of Circus Maximus' NINE, or Distorted Harmony and The Great Gamble's debut. In essence, it's just refreshing, more accessible, but definitely "colorful" album. "Progressive" doesn't even define this album's different flavors aptly.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 As I´m listening more and more, I´m getting to the conclusion some of us already took: DT12 is in the top 5 DT albums for me. I´m sorry for those of you who haven´t clicked with the album the way I did, but to me it sounds better at every listen. And sound quality wise, I can hear all instruments clearly with this stream, and can only begin to imagine how good this will sound when I finally get the CD in my hands.

[Filipe_metalhead]

I don't understand these people who dislike an album after the 1st listen...

First and mainly:

I'm a musician and I play  lot's of tunes from Dream Theater, (which in fact are the ones that challenge me the most) and every song of them are musically perfect. In case of you guys who aren't musicians i'll tell you right away writing a song is easy, but knowing what's there knowing how to aply the vast knowledge of music and make everything logic and professional is very hard. You might take years to write songs like "Metropolis Pt1" and such.
So, understand that it's not an easy job to please the fans staying true to the roots and give a bit of spontaneous and fresh like this album. Understand that comprehension is needed to appreciate someones work.

Secondly:

For the ones hoping to find better music in the future let's forget that! The future is very relative and Dream Theater (in extremely hard circumstances) would come to an end. Imagine that (a terrible thing in my opinion, a fatal tragedy) this would be the last album out...
The most people that listen to music nowadays like Muse and stuff (nothing against) but Muse compared to DT is like a song with basic chords and a classic piece of Bach or Beethoven. Still they get an enormous success and not much negative critics which in my opinion is a shame. On the other side, Dream Theater stays months in a studio trying to write the album of their lives getting influences on top and vibes from early records. That's not an easy thing to do and they get crucified after the 1st day the album is out fro streaming.

Thirdly:

I'm only a fan but I can assure that this album is going to be an awesome album by the way things are going and I truly hope that this time they win a Grammy. That would shut a lot of people., One thing is certain, (and this is for most of the people who think that DT could've spend more time in studio) the album "Train of Thought" was written in 8 days, is one of their best works and it took that short amount time. Conclusion of this last paragraph, it doesn't matter the time, what matters is the final product in their opinions. What matters is new music. For the fans of the previous albums and not so fans of this one I give the following advice:

Listen to all of your favorite albums from the past and play the new one before each album. Compare and relate fragments of music. If you still disappointed, go back and listen only to the previous records.

That's why they're called Records.

Sorry if I hurt anyone in anyway, it wasn't my intention. I only wanted to prove that Dream Theater is great and most of its greatness is appreciated only when times goes by or when terrible things happens.

P.S. For the not so fans of Mike Mangini and Portnoy's Fans and people who support the idea that Portnoy was way better. Think this: "If you were in the place of Mangini's and were on his skin, how would you feel reading the treads related to you (being you on his skin)?"

Let the guy do his work. He is trying to bring fresh elements but keeping the old ones as well. if you're gonna listen to somebody's record thinking that it'll suck right from the beginning, then you might not listen to it...

[RodrigoAltaf]

Way to go, Filipe! So, will you be checking DT in Lisbon or Porto next January? My sister lives in Lisbon, but since I visited her this year already, I thought of going some place else in Europe next year, so I´ll check out the shows in MAdrid, PAmplona and BArcelona. So glad I chose to follow them around on a tour to support such an awesome album!!! 

[ariich]

Honestly, I am amused about the dislike on the new album.

Let's get things in proportion here - there is actually very little dislike towards the album. In fact, I'd say this is generally probably the most positive I've seen the fanbase to a new DT album since becoming a fan (around the SDOIT time, and I joined the forum community around the Octavarium time).

Of course there are some people who don't like it, that is the case for literally EVERY SINGLE band or artist that has been around for a long time. Long standing musicians and bands gradually build a following of fans from different tastes, backgrounds, etc. Especially artists where there is variation in style from album to album, such as DT, this means that every fan has different wants, and different likes and dislikes. So every single song they release, some will love it, many will like it, some won't care for it, and a few will hate it.

But frankly, the number of people expressing disappointment/dislike of this album is really quite small (just check out the poll thread for some perspective).

[Tomislav95]

I don't understand these people who dislike an album after the 1st listen...

...

This.
I have to mention I didn't like ADTOE on first or even second listen. But after I took the time to listen to each song separately whole album clicked with me. And now I like all songs on album (and BAI is one of my favorites by DT). I understand it didn't click with you after first listen but give DT more spins, You may like it.

[cyberdrummer]

I don't understand these people who dislike an album after the 1st listen...

It's just the same as people who absolutely love an album after the first listen. These are first impressions. You never know, this album, which you love at the moment, might not age well. Give people some credit and don't write them all off as being impatient.

The most people that listen to music nowadays like Muse and stuff (nothing against) but Muse compared to DT is like a song with basic chords and a classic piece of Bach or Beethoven. Still they get an enormous success and not much negative critics which in my opinion is a shame.

First of all, Muse have written some brilliant music over the years, much of it better than DT's output in the same period. I agree it's a shame that DT aren't more 'successful' in commercial terms, but that shouldn't be used as a criticism of Muse. Anyhow, I think DT are gradually gaining a greater presence in the mainstream.

I wish people would let those who don't like the new album have their opinion (as long it's expressed respectfully). Just because we all post on a DT fan forum, doesn't mean we have to like everything they do. Dislike is no less valid than like.

[Filipe_metalhead]

Way to go, Filipe! So, will you be checking DT in Lisbon or Porto next January? My sister lives in Lisbon, but since I visited her this year already, I thought of going some place else in Europe next year, so I´ll check out the shows in MAdrid, PAmplona and BArcelona. So glad I chose to follow them around on a tour to support such an awesome album!!! 

I live in Porto and I'm going to spend 60€ to watch them along with my wife. I love their work and I will support each and every work of Dream Theater. They are the best on the planet!

[philippaopao]

after the first listen, i can only say that it seems every member personally called me and asked what i want the new album to sound like.

THIS. =))

[Filipe_metalhead]

I don't understand these people who dislike an album after the 1st listen...

It's just the same as people who absolutely love an album after the first listen. These are first impressions. You never know, this album, which you love at the moment, might not age well. Give people some credit and don't write them all off as being impatient.

The most people that listen to music nowadays like Muse and stuff (nothing against) but Muse compared to DT is like a song with basic chords and a classic piece of Bach or Beethoven. Still they get an enormous success and not much negative critics which in my opinion is a shame.

First of all, Muse have written some brilliant music over the years, much of it better than DT's output in the same period. I agree it's a shame that DT aren't more 'successful' in commercial terms, but that shouldn't be used as a criticism of Muse. Anyhow, I think DT are gradually gaining a greater presence in the mainstream.

I wish people would let those who don't like the new album have their opinion (as long it's expressed respectfully). Just because we all post on a DT fan forum, doesn't mean we have to like everything they do. Dislike is no less valid than like.

I agree with you and I apology if I was rude. I didn't wanted to hurt anybody in anyway like I said before. I'm not a fan of Muse I listened to the album "2nd Law" and I didn't like and I don't think that is a great record. But it's only my opinion.

I was only trying to say that some bands are less professional or less professional or whatever less than DT and they get granted by it. I'm a huge fan of Megadeth too (actually I started to listen to Megadeth before DT) and I tell you that Megadeth doens't get close to Dream Theater in therms of music and professionalism.

I think that DT is underrated.

Once again I'm so sorry if I, by expressing my opinion hurt any of you.

Sorry!

[Viking of the Sagas]

It's not about hurting anyone, and you don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinions. More besides, that actually comes across as more condescending than sorry. 

No band is over or underrated. Dream Theater has huge appreciation from its fans (see the love bandwagon of DT12) and they are widely respected by non-fans as well for their great musical prowess. Don't you think you're just being a little overenthusiastic, as good as your intentions are? 

[RodrigoAltaf]

 You´re lucky you wife likes them as well. The closest I managed to get my wife to the DT realm was taking her to see The Winery Dogs, which she loved. But she can´t stand LaBrie´s voice, so we´ll go together on this trip next year but she´ll do something else when I´m at the concerts.

[Thematt202]

One question - where's the bass solo??

[JediKnight1969]

Just to be clear:

The album is technically brilliant. But this is not engineering: it's art. Art moves you, or not. This piece of art, so far, doesn't. That's all.

[RodrigoAltaf]

One question - where's the bass solo??

You mean on the instrumental track? I don´t mind that it does not have a bass solo. Myung shines all the way through the whole album. He´s like a kid in a candy shop in this CD.

[Shadow2222]

I absolutely adore this album (as of right now, after 4 listens). Obviously, that will possibly change over the next weeks, months, and years, but that is how I feel right now.

Illumination Theory blows TCOT and ITPOE out of the water, but I'm not sure about 8VM or ACOS.

I generally like every song, but AFTR, IT, TBP, and STR stand out right now.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I
Illumination Theory blows TCOT and ITPOE out of the water, but I'm not sure about 8VM or ACOS.

 YYYYYYeessssssss!!!!!