Author Topic: King Crimson Appreciation Thread  (Read 36199 times)

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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #630 on: June 12, 2019, 07:37:52 PM »
Oof. If that's all you can say about Starless then I'm afraid there's no saving you. :lol
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Offline goo-goo

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #631 on: June 12, 2019, 09:52:10 PM »
I'm listening to Discipline right now for the first time and man is the studio recording of Indiscipline underwhelming or what. Live recordings I've heard are exciting, but that one felt like Adrian was reading the lyrics from a lyric sheet. And it's so much shorter. That song really comes into life when played life.

Otherwise I'm really liking this.

The “problem” with King Crimson is that you will deal with two different bands: live and studio. It doesn’t matter who is in the band. My recommendation is to listen to a studio album and then misten to a live recording. So much stuff is added that the live song becomes an almost different one compared to the studio version of the same song.
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #632 on: June 13, 2019, 01:36:56 AM »
If you haven't heard Red, give that a try. 
Red- Fucking monotonous. What's the point?
Fallen Angel-OK
One More Red Nightmare-Somewhat interesting
Providence-WTF is this? Sounds like kids making noise in their parents' basement.
Starless-I mean, this isn't too bad. It isn't too good, either. Last 50 seconds is nice though.

excuse me but what the fuck


(ok, I'm a hypocrite because my first reaction to Red was also negative for some reason, but still, wtf)

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #633 on: June 13, 2019, 03:27:21 AM »
If you haven't heard Red, give that a try. 
Red- Fucking monotonous. What's the point?
Fallen Angel-OK
One More Red Nightmare-Somewhat interesting
Providence-WTF is this? Sounds like kids making noise in their parents' basement.
Starless-I mean, this isn't too bad. It isn't too good, either. Last 50 seconds is nice though.

excuse me but what the fuck


This sums up my thoughts perfectly. You can't just say "it isn't good". Starless is considered one of the central masterpieces of 70s progressive rock. Oh, but if Tac in DTF says it's not good, then it can't be good! At least explain why YOU think it's not good.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #634 on: June 13, 2019, 04:01:24 AM »
I'd even go a step further and call Starless one of the greatest opuses in rock music, and certainly one of the finest closers to any album, period.
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Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #635 on: June 13, 2019, 04:19:50 AM »
I'd even go a step further and call Starless one of the greatest opuses in rock music, and certainly one of the finest closers to any album, period.

I would definiteley agree...

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #636 on: June 13, 2019, 04:32:32 AM »
Starless was the perfect conclusion to that era of the band. It's essentially the climax of the band's 70s career, and wraps everything up perfectly.

Semi-tangent: It's still surprising to me that they kept the name from Discipline onwards. It's clearly not the same style of music, it only shares two of four band members, it was released seven damn years after Red, and from my understanding they never played much of their old stuff live during that era. It's still a fantastic album, but it's not King Crimson goddamnit. :lol

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #637 on: June 13, 2019, 04:45:14 AM »
Starless was the perfect conclusion to that era of the band. It's essentially the climax of the band's 70s career, and wraps everything up perfectly.

Semi-tangent: It's still surprising to me that they kept the name from Discipline onwards. It's clearly not the same style of music, it only shares two of four band members, it was released seven damn years after Red, and from my understanding they never played much of their old stuff live during that era. It's still a fantastic album, but it's not King Crimson goddamnit. :lol
Fripp wanted to use the name (for reasons you outlined already) but changed his mind at the last minute IIRC

Offline Sacul

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #638 on: June 13, 2019, 06:56:55 AM »
If you haven't heard Red, give that a try. 

Done!

Red- Fucking monotonous. What's the point?
Fallen Angel-OK
One More Red Nightmare-Somewhat interesting
Providence-WTF is this? Sounds like kids making noise in their parents' basement.
Starless-I mean, this isn't too bad. It isn't too good, either. Last 50 seconds is nice though.



Next??
Go with In the Court of the Crimson King, you'll find it quite fun I think :P

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #639 on: June 13, 2019, 07:01:15 AM »
Starless was the perfect conclusion to that era of the band. It's essentially the climax of the band's 70s career, and wraps everything up perfectly.

100%.


Concerning keeping the name King Crimson, I get it. Wether Robert wants to admit it or not, King Crimson is a big name and fans will always buy their shit and this will bring more money. Plus:

It's clearly not the same style of music,

Lizard is also not the same style of music as Red and The Court. Islands is completely different than Lark's Tongues. Starless & Bible Black is completely different than Poseidon. KC is all about change for me. Exploring new genres and new lineups.

it only shares two of four band members

Other than Robert, I think (correct me if I'm wrong please) there is no-one playing on Lark's, Starless and Red that played on Court, Poseidon, Lizard. Islands was also a completely different lineup (apart from Sinfield)

from my understanding they never played much of their old stuff live during that era.

I think they always focussed on their current material. Even in 1973/74, they didn't play that much from Court, and nothing from Poseidon, Lizard and Islands.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #640 on: June 13, 2019, 07:38:27 AM »
If you haven't heard Red, give that a try. 

Done!

Red- Fucking monotonous. What's the point?
Fallen Angel-OK
One More Red Nightmare-Somewhat interesting
Providence-WTF is this? Sounds like kids making noise in their parents' basement.
Starless-I mean, this isn't too bad. It isn't too good, either. Last 50 seconds is nice though.



Next??

For Crimson, there really isn't a next... wait, one song:  Give Fracture, from "Starless and Bible Black", the album before Red, a try, if you please.   Fripp claims it to be his masterpiece, but if you don't like Red, the song, and OMRN and S are "ok", maybe Crimson isn't for you.  I actually get it; Crimson is very much a mood band for me. I have all their albums - I even like the stuff that's getting slagged here, like Lizard and Islands - but I have to be in the right mood.  I rarely, if ever, sit down and say "Hmm, I'm going to listen to "Red" today!".   

(By the way, that's EXACTLY what "Providence" is. It was an impromptu jam/improv recorded in Providence, Rhode Island in '74, and edited for the record.)

Offline Stadler

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #641 on: June 13, 2019, 07:52:39 AM »
Starless was the perfect conclusion to that era of the band. It's essentially the climax of the band's 70s career, and wraps everything up perfectly.

Semi-tangent: It's still surprising to me that they kept the name from Discipline onwards. It's clearly not the same style of music, it only shares two of four band members, it was released seven damn years after Red, and from my understanding they never played much of their old stuff live during that era. It's still a fantastic album, but it's not King Crimson goddamnit. :lol

Well, I guess it's up to you if you beleive him or not but to give Fripp credit, since about mid-1973 or so, he's been stunningly consistent in his assessment of King Crimson.  It's not about him, personally (though he's been on all the recorded output to date, only man to make that claim) but rather a "way of doing things".   He makes music in and out of Crimson, with artists who have been in and out of Crimson, but when they get together, it seems to take on a life of it's own. 

I know this might sound condescending, but I don't (at all) mean it that way, but this only becomes clear when seeing them live.  It's very much a performance, not a concert (which is why, I believe, they DON'T play a lot of older material).   Very heavily improv driven, and very much in the moment.

Interesting story: I saw them in November '95 in New Haven (Palace Theater).  At the time the big buzz was that the Beatles were going to release a new song - Paul! George! Ringo! John on tape! - and Adrian Belew (noted for his sense of humor) came out for his solo set and proclaimed that he had the song and was going to play it for us.  And he did this beautiful, voice and guitar version of a song that had the lyrics "Free...  free as a bird" and we laughed and clapped.  Two weeks later, in December, the big reveal, and son of a bitch if it wasn't the exact song.  (I actually have a tape of that show; I met Sean Lennon not long ago at the Palace before their show - they cover King Crimson in their set - and I got scared and didn't mention that.  I should have.)

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #642 on: June 13, 2019, 10:30:38 AM »
If you haven't heard Red, give that a try. 
Red- Fucking monotonous. What's the point?
Fallen Angel-OK
One More Red Nightmare-Somewhat interesting
Providence-WTF is this? Sounds like kids making noise in their parents' basement.
Starless-I mean, this isn't too bad. It isn't too good, either. Last 50 seconds is nice though.

excuse me but what the fuck


This sums up my thoughts perfectly. You can't just say "it isn't good". Starless is considered one of the central masterpieces of 70s progressive rock. Oh, but if Tac in DTF says it's not good, then it can't be good! At least explain why YOU think it's not good.

Yikes bro!

It was just one listen. The only part I really liked was the outdo. The rest seemed like mindless noodling/jamming. I’ll give it another spin tonight so hopefully it’ll feel a bit more cohesive.

I also said it wasn’t bad.  :P
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #643 on: June 13, 2019, 12:15:32 PM »
If you haven't heard Red, give that a try. 
Red- Fucking monotonous. What's the point?
Fallen Angel-OK
One More Red Nightmare-Somewhat interesting
Providence-WTF is this? Sounds like kids making noise in their parents' basement.
Starless-I mean, this isn't too bad. It isn't too good, either. Last 50 seconds is nice though.

excuse me but what the fuck


This sums up my thoughts perfectly. You can't just say "it isn't good". Starless is considered one of the central masterpieces of 70s progressive rock. Oh, but if Tac in DTF says it's not good, then it can't be good! At least explain why YOU think it's not good.

Yikes bro!

It was just one listen. The only part I really liked was the outdo. The rest seemed like mindless noodling/jamming. I’ll give it another spin tonight so hopefully it’ll feel a bit more cohesive.

I also said it wasn’t bad.  :P

TAC, stand your ground; I'm a Crimson fan, and if there's any criticism about Crimson, it's that they noodle.   There is a box set associated with Starless and Bible Black that is like 29 disks, and has something like 16 or 17 shows from that tour.  Likewise for Red.    There is a LOT of fucking noodling on those 29 disks.   

I happen to like some of it - pretty much where the noodling and the composition collide is their sweetspot, in my opinion - but if it's not your thing, then so be it.   

Offline Mladen

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #644 on: June 13, 2019, 02:45:39 PM »
Count me in as another KC fan that thinks their noodling can occasionally go too far.

It's fantastic that the albums are on Spotify now. I spent the day at work shuffling through Discipline and Beat, I truly had a good time.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 01:10:46 AM by Mladen »

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #645 on: June 13, 2019, 06:32:56 PM »
This sums up my thoughts perfectly. You can't just say "it isn't good". Starless is considered one of the central masterpieces of 70s progressive rock. Oh, but if Tac in DTF says it's not good, then it can't be good! At least explain why YOU think it's not good.

OK Fritzanger  ;D..
I gave Starless another listen tonight. It did make a little more sense. The actual song part with vocals was OK. The middle instrumental part, seriously, I don't know what the point is. It just sounds like some kids jamming instead of a well written musical piece.
But that last minute is absolutely glorious.



Go with In the Court of the Crimson King, you'll find it quite fun I think :P

I'm on it.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 07:22:34 PM by TAC »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #646 on: June 13, 2019, 07:07:37 PM »
OK..Just made it through In The Court Of The Crimson King.

21st Century Schizoid Man-Seriously, I did not care for this at all. Noise!
I Talk To The Wind-shrug.
Epitaph-This is really nice. I like it.
Moonchild- No point whatsoever.
Title Track-Excellent!!


would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #647 on: June 13, 2019, 07:24:23 PM »
I saw TAC on the "last post" in the thread menu and just knew there would be some action in here  :lol
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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #648 on: June 13, 2019, 07:25:51 PM »
I saw TAC on the "last post" in the thread menu and just knew there would be some action in here  :lol

 :lol


It seems to be following me lately! :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #649 on: June 14, 2019, 12:19:06 AM »
It's clearly not the same style of music,

Lizard is also not the same style of music as Red and The Court. Islands is completely different than Lark's Tongues. Starless & Bible Black is completely different than Poseidon. KC is all about change for me. Exploring new genres and new lineups.

I don't think the change between the first 7 albums was really all that drastic. They are quite various, but it feels to me like a natural progression to me, whereas Discipline is like a sharp 90 degree turn with zero foreshadowing. There's nothing that sounds really "Crimson-y" about it, which is why I can forgive the inconsistencies in the older albums.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 04:21:51 AM by IDontNotDoThings »

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #650 on: June 14, 2019, 12:42:27 AM »

Quote
The middle instrumental part, seriously, I don't know what the point is. It just sounds like some kids jamming instead of a well written musical piece.

Yeah, it's almost like KC is influenced by improv jazz or something. :P

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #651 on: June 14, 2019, 04:13:48 AM »
This sums up my thoughts perfectly. You can't just say "it isn't good". Starless is considered one of the central masterpieces of 70s progressive rock. Oh, but if Tac in DTF says it's not good, then it can't be good! At least explain why YOU think it's not good.

OK Fritzanger  ;D..
I gave Starless another listen tonight. It did make a little more sense. The actual song part with vocals was OK. The middle instrumental part, seriously, I don't know what the point is. It just sounds like some kids jamming instead of a well written musical piece.
But that last minute is absolutely glorious.



Go with In the Court of the Crimson King, you'll find it quite fun I think :P

I'm on it.

Sorry Tac, I didn't mean to sound angry or disrespectful...  :'(

I think the middle part of Starless is amazing. It builds up suspense from "eery and creepy" up to "absolutely insane" - this build-up is unmatched in my opinion. The guitar "solo" provides lots of space for Bill Bruford to construct his percussion around it.

And the finale has one of the strongest bass parts I know. Mr. Wetton tortures his bass strings.
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Offline Mladen

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #652 on: June 14, 2019, 05:09:20 AM »
TAC has every right to say something sucks. Even when it's actually brilliant.  ;D

The instrumental section Starless can get too much when I'm not in the right mood for it, but the rest of the song is absolutely brilliant. The title track, however, is perfect as it is. None of it is unnecessary or dragged out, each part serves a purpose.

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #653 on: June 14, 2019, 06:41:18 AM »
OK..Just made it through In The Court Of The Crimson King.

21st Century Schizoid Man-Seriously, I did not care for this at all. Noise!
I Talk To The Wind-shrug.
Epitaph-This is really nice. I like it.
Moonchild- No point whatsoever.
Title Track-Excellent!!

I don't know any of you are fans of either musician, but I saw Claypool Lennon Delirium in New Haven a couple weeks ago, and they did a cover of The Court Of The Crimson King, and it was STELLAR.  May be the song of the night (and it was a very good show).    Really, really good.  There are versions on YooToob, and they put out a studio version on a vinyl-only EP between albums.   

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #654 on: June 14, 2019, 07:41:58 AM »
I have been listening to the often forgotten and underrated ISLANDS. I love this album, with its pastoral, quiet atmosphere and the beautiful lyrics by Sinfield. It's occupying my turn table for quite a few days now and it doesn't get boring. In my opinion, it even captures the atmosphere and characteristics of Postrock and Talk Talk's Spirit Of Eden. Only 2 years after the monumental debut album, Fripp managed to reinvent himself for the third time.

"Beneath the wind turned wave
Infinite peace
Islands join hands
'Neathe heaven's sea."

Beautiful..
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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #655 on: June 14, 2019, 01:27:00 PM »

Sorry Tac, I didn't mean to sound angry or disrespectful...  :'(

I think the middle part of Starless is amazing. It builds up suspense from "eery and creepy" up to "absolutely insane" - this build-up is unmatched in my opinion. The guitar "solo" provides lots of space for Bill Bruford to construct his percussion around it.

And the finale has one of the strongest bass parts I know. Mr. Wetton tortures his bass strings.

No worries at all. I'm the one who came in here and kicked up some dust. :lol

But I am giving these listens with a totally open mind. I am only posting my thoughts really to spur discussion, but honestly, it gives you guys a chance to tell me what you like. With them on Spotify, I';; be checking them out.

In a Metal/Hard Rock guy. I am not a loopy noodling 70's rock dude. But I am eager to experience some KC.



TAC has every right to say something sucks. Even when it's actually brilliant.  ;D

I never said it sucked!! :P


Seriously, I think the middle section is indeed something that could click with me with subsequent listens. I haven't in any way closed the book on it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #656 on: June 14, 2019, 02:26:02 PM »
I mean, difference in tastes and all that I suppose. I just don't agree with the idea that anything even mildly free improv is just "noodling" and "noise". Songs with such structures aren't meant to be conventionally structured in a way where there is a definitive beginning middle and end, or verse-choruse-verse-bridge-solo, what have you. They are conceived and meant to be experienced very much in the moment, and focus more on atmosphere and suspense as is the case with Starless. Like seriously, the way it continues to build from the middle section onward is just insane, it's basically a precursor to what post-rock would be doing decades later.
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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #657 on: June 14, 2019, 02:28:32 PM »
I mean, difference in tastes and all that I suppose. I just don't agree with the idea that anything even mildly free improv is just "noodling" and "noise". Songs with such structures aren't meant to be conventionally structured in a way where there is a definitive beginning middle and end, or verse-choruse-verse-bridge-solo, what have you. They are conceived and meant to be experienced very much in the moment, and focus more on atmosphere and suspense as is the case with Starless. Like seriously, the way it continues to build from the middle section onward is just insane, it's basically a precursor to what post-rock would be doing decades later.

I didn't know what other words to use. 
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #658 on: June 14, 2019, 02:38:12 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to antagonize you for your opinions on some of their stuff, I myself am not of fan of everything they've done and I don't feel as though all of their improv compositions pan out 100% for me (main example I can think of being some bits of the first half or so of Providence).

I guess cause many people use the phrase "noodling" specifically to mean something directionless in a very negative way, but I understand now you may not have meant it that way.
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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #659 on: June 14, 2019, 02:40:48 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to antagonize you for your opinions on some of their stuff, I myself am not of fan of everything they've done and I don't feel as though all of their improv compositions pan out 100% for me (main example I can think of being some bits of the first half or so of Providence).

I guess cause many people use the phrase "noodling" specifically to mean something directionless in a very negative way, but I understand now you may not have meant it that way.

No antagonizing taken. :)

I don't mean noodling as a negative. I mean, I don't love noodling, but it was really the only adjective that I could think of to describe it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Nel

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #660 on: June 14, 2019, 05:51:00 PM »
Picked up the final(?) two 40th Anniversary reissues today. I didn't know the Construkction of Light's reissue was a re-recording. Now I don't know if I want to put it in my digital library as the 2000 album with the old art or as a 2019 album with the new name/art (I really like the new artwork). I suppose if I ever find a used copy of the original I'll pick it up and distinguish them then.

I'd like to get reissues like this for the Projekt stuff like Space Groove and Heaven and Earth. Just to have all the studio stuff.

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #661 on: June 15, 2019, 01:24:55 AM »
Picked up the final(?) two 40th Anniversary reissues today. I didn't know the Construkction of Light's reissue was a re-recording. Now I don't know if I want to put it in my digital library as the 2000 album with the old art or as a 2019 album with the new name/art (I really like the new artwork). I suppose if I ever find a used copy of the original I'll pick it up and distinguish them then.

I'd like to get reissues like this for the Projekt stuff like Space Groove and Heaven and Earth. Just to have all the studio stuff.

I didn't know there was such a thing! When was this released? I hope we will get Construkction, THRAK and Power To Believe on (official) vinyl during the whole re-release process.
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #662 on: June 15, 2019, 01:36:59 AM »
Now that you mention it, the streaming version of Sleepless sounds completely different from my CD copy. I have a CD of TOAPP (which seems to be from 1984, since it has instructions on how to use a CD :lol) and its version of Sleepless has a longer intro and the synths are far more prominent in the mix. According to Spotify it's the "Bob Clearmountain Mix", but it must have been included on the album in some issues. Weird... :huh:

Offline Nel

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #663 on: June 15, 2019, 12:11:16 PM »
I didn't know there was such a thing! When was this released? I hope we will get Construkction, THRAK and Power To Believe on (official) vinyl during the whole re-release process.

I'm assuming yesterday, that's the first time I saw TCoL (or, REconstruktion now) and TPtB at the record store. I think they did some massive 24-disc release for these two albums that had a BUNCH of musical content in it, but I didn't really look into that.


Offline Fritzinger

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Re: King Crimson Appreciation Thread
« Reply #664 on: June 15, 2019, 12:49:21 PM »
Quite a nice collection you got there! ;)

I wonder why Construkction ist the only one they re-released with a new cover. Yeah, it IS the worst King Crimson cover (in my opinion), but Robert is usually very careful with changing things like that, isn't he? It seems he usually has a lot of respect for the original, so does Steven Wilson.

Still, I really hope for a vinyl release. Does anyone know in which order/with which time difference the last albums were re-released on CD and vinyl? I think it was always first the CD and then the vinyl after some time, but I could be wrong.
me desperté en un mundo con dos tipos de gente: la mas y la menos extrema