Author Topic: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks  (Read 6628 times)

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2018, 11:27:32 AM »
Adami, that was very insightful. Thank you. I don't have any specific arguments, though I might have questions about noodling this over for a bit.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »
It was the last post on the previous page? HAH!
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2018, 12:42:58 PM »
Damn fine explanation and easy to follow.

However, they're the crips, not the crypts.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 12:57:04 PM »
Damn fine explanation and easy to follow.

However, they're the crips, not the crypts.


Dammit!
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 05:48:26 PM »
First off, I am sure Adami would disapprove of my knowledge of Israel coming largely from NCIS and the movie Exodus. Regardless, these are meant to be unbiased questions.

First, when Israel first agreed to statehood with the international community, it did not include Jerusalem.

I thought the Jerusalem “issue” was the crux of the argument. Because I believed, based on Wiki: “After the establishment of the state of Israel, Jerusalem was declared its capital city.” There are more sources, I just wanted to be succinct.

No official recognized border that either people are operating in. Israel is currently occupying all of Jerusalem, and exerting legal and military control over East Jerusalem. So they are the de facto rulers of all of Jerusalem, without legal recognition or right to do so…

If over the course of 60-70 years they have assumed the role of de facto rulers of the whole city, at what point do they become the de jure rulers of the city? Why does Israel need UN approval or legal recognition? I know there are UN Declarations and such dealing with the city, but they are just pieces of paper at this point, that it seems have lost whatever traction they might have once had.

Israel has a hugely uneven position since Palestinians have literally no say, no power, and no legal rights that Israel needs to grant them.

So to get philosophical, why the heck would any Palestinian want to live in such at atmosphere? I know the philosophical answer, I just don’t get it.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »
Good questions!

I’m out at the moment but will answer them when I’m home.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2018, 06:13:22 PM »


Now, why would the Israeli government want this? Because fear of Palestinians is the only thing keeping them in power. Without war, without righteous violence against Arabs, without the "they just want to kill all of us for no reason" narrative, the current government loses all of its power. So they will maintain war, violence, and fear at any cost.


Not an argument, a legit question:  is that really true? Or any more than anyone else in "power"?   I sort of have the idea planted in my head that there will always be a need/desire for a strong Israel from the diaspora, and peace among it's enemies isn't enough to derail that.   My limited knowledge opinion only.

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2018, 07:36:08 PM »
I thought the Jerusalem “issue” was the crux of the argument. Because I believed, based on Wiki: “After the establishment of the state of Israel, Jerusalem was declared its capital city.” There are more sources, I just wanted to be succinct.

You misunderstood me. I meant that the history of the city wasn't the crux of MY argument. Yes, Jerusalem is a big deal. I don't know who declared Jerusalem the capital in 1948, but Tel Aviv was the capital when Israel was declared. Israel took over Jerusalem in 1967 after the 6 day war. Israel generally considers Jerusalem their capital, but the rest of the world doesn't agree because there's no law behind it.

Quote
If over the course of 60-70 years they have assumed the role of de facto rulers of the whole city, at what point do they become the de jure rulers of the city? Why does Israel need UN approval or legal recognition? I know there are UN Declarations and such dealing with the city, but they are just pieces of paper at this point, that it seems have lost whatever traction they might have once had.

Because we don't live in a world where countries can do whatever they want, whenever they want. International law states that, since 1949, states cannot legally claim land acquired through aggressive war. Israel can do whatever they want, but if they want anyone else in the world to recognize it (which they clearly do) they need the law on their side. It isn't at the moment. You can claim that Jordan had no right to claim Jerusalem (or the West Bank) when they took it in the 1948 war, and you'd be correct about that as well. However, two wrongs do not make a right.


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So to get philosophical, why the heck would any Palestinian want to live in such at atmosphere? I know the philosophical answer, I just don’t get it.

This is difficult because the millions of Palestinians may have a ton of various reasons, but for the most part it's the same reason why Native Americans haven't moved to Germany or France or whatever. It's their home. Those Palestinians, many of them trace their history there back hundreds of years. I can understand not wanting to give up everything they fought for and just move. They have a strong and deep connection to their land. It's something modern Americans might not be able to relate to, but it's not something one can just simply dismiss.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2018, 07:37:20 PM »


Now, why would the Israeli government want this? Because fear of Palestinians is the only thing keeping them in power. Without war, without righteous violence against Arabs, without the "they just want to kill all of us for no reason" narrative, the current government loses all of its power. So they will maintain war, violence, and fear at any cost.


Not an argument, a legit question:  is that really true? Or any more than anyone else in "power"?   I sort of have the idea planted in my head that there will always be a need/desire for a strong Israel from the diaspora, and peace among it's enemies isn't enough to derail that.   My limited knowledge opinion only.

Yes. I said the current government. They are definitely in power as a "we will fight the evil Arabs" voice. Without war, without fear, without terror, they wouldn't stand a chance at election.

And the relationship between Israel and the diaspora has never been worse than it currently is with the current regime.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2018, 09:18:03 PM »
I don't know who declared Jerusalem the capital in 1948, but Tel Aviv was the capital when Israel was declared.

I was going off of: https://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/bengurion-jer.htm

International law states that, since 1949, states cannot legally claim land acquired through aggressive war. Israel can do whatever they want, but if they want anyone else in the world to recognize it (which they clearly do) they need the law on their side.

I didn’t look at it from this angle.

It's their home. Those Palestinians, many of them trace their history there back hundreds of years.

Human history is replete with movement. I am happy where I live and would be devastated if I felt compelled to move, but at some point I would really have to question if living in a place where I was not wanted and treated like crap was best for me and my family. My dad’s dad thought Yugoslavia wasn’t the best place for him to raise his family, so he packed up and moved to the US, leaving the area where generations of his family before him lived. I just can’t get behind the ideal that “my family has lived here for generations, but because of that we aren’t leaving despite how miserable it is for us here, so feel bad for us.” Home is where you make it.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2018, 09:27:58 PM »
The government site is more on the propaganda side of things.


And like I said, the attachment to the land is just something a lot of Westerns don't understand. I mean, if you feel like completely dismissing it, fine. But you're going to be very confused why they're more than happy to die for it.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #81 on: January 07, 2018, 09:31:58 PM »
Sure but I needed to start somewhere, and if that was a document (or a record) from 1948, it is a valid assessment of history, even if slanted in its view.

And I guess I am dismissing it. Is it really worth sending your sons and daughters out to kill and die because you feel that much "attachment to the land?" Not to me. But of course the fight isn't that simple or about one lone issue.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #82 on: January 07, 2018, 09:38:16 PM »
Well those records, were from almost 1950 and bore no legal standing in the slightest bit. It would be like Trump declaring that Toronto is part of America, everyone saying no, but then he went and had some meetings there.



And about the connection to the land, you might have to chalk that up to "not something I get". Just like I don't get why people why die for religion, but history is filled with it. It's something I accept without having to judge because it's not a personal value or one I'm surrounded by.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #83 on: January 07, 2018, 09:40:57 PM »
Fair enough, and fair enough. I can concede on both accounts. Thank you for the discussion.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2018, 06:50:24 AM »
And about the connection to the land, you might have to chalk that up to "not something I get". Just like I don't get why people why die for religion, but history is filled with it. It's something I accept without having to judge because it's not a personal value or one I'm surrounded by.

Whether it's obvious or not, this informs much of my political and philosophical thought.  There's no accounting for the "why's", and for the most part, it's not for us to say.    Who I sleep with, where I live, what I choose to do for a career...  the problem is accepting the consequences of those decisions.    It's one thing for me to live in Detroit, lose my job, and decide that family is more important and I'm staying put, or job is more important and I'm moving to Tennessee.   But I have to live with my decision, for better or worse, and the entire country - or in this case, the world - doesn't have to bend to my whim.   

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2019, 12:25:18 PM »
Sorry for bump but I wanted to pursue this (and talk about something other than a kid who got his admission revoked from Harvard):

And to be fair, I've said plenty of times that I don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Not to challenge you or insinuate you are wrong (or bigoted, anti-semitic...) but genuinely curious as to your reasoning behind this.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2019, 12:29:40 PM »
Israel's right to exist is questionable because it was granted by an organization, whose authorization was granted by a country that conquered the area. However, this same general situation allowed for almost every other Arab country to exist too. So Israel's immediate right to exist is on a very similar level to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, etc. So if you don't recognize any of those country's rights to exist, that's fair. Singling out Israel, at least from that perspective, is a bit odd.

Do I think we, as Jews, have earned (Sorry stads), in a moral or ethical sense our own country anymore? I don't know, but I'd lean toward no.

Does Israel have a right to any part of land outside of the 1948 borders? Well, THAT is easy not to recognize.

Not to speak for Bart, just saw it and figured I'd jump in.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2019, 12:37:45 PM »
I am pretty ignorant on ME affairs and history so appreciate the insight.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2019, 12:37:56 PM »
Sorry for bump but I wanted to pursue this (and talk about something other than a kid who got his admission revoked from Harvard):

And to be fair, I've said plenty of times that I don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Not to challenge you or insinuate you are wrong (or bigoted, anti-semitic...) but genuinely curious as to your reasoning behind this.
The broader remark that I would generally make is that I don't approve of its right to exist in its current state and location. While I've got no problem with the establishment of a Jewish state, the way it was handled was fucking dumb, and we've all been paying the price for it since. None of us as much as the people who happened to live there at the time.


Israel's right to exist is questionable because it was granted by an organization, whose authorization was granted by a country that conquered the area. However, this same general situation allowed for almost every other Arab country to exist too. So Israel's immediate right to exist is on a very similar level to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, etc. So if you don't recognize any of those country's rights to exist, that's fair. Singling out Israel, at least from that perspective, is a bit odd.

Do I think we, as Jews, have earned (Sorry stads), in a moral or ethical sense our own country anymore? I don't know, but I'd lean toward no.

Does Israel have a right to any part of land outside of the 1948 borders? Well, THAT is easy not to recognize.

Not to speak for Bart, just saw it and figured I'd jump in.
Glad you did, and perhaps you'll explain the similarity with Jordan, Saudi Arabia, et al. While their borders have no doubt changed over the last 2000 years, I would think that it occurred somewhat organically, rather than by a unilateral decree and in not so dramatic a fashion as "say hello to your new landowners." The formation of Israel isn't something I'm particularly well versed on.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2019, 12:43:56 PM »
I'm in the "ignorant" camp here too (though I know the basic facts), but Bart, is it that administrative process that irks?  Because the basics of establishing a country because that's where you're camped is not exclusive to Israel, 1948 or otherwise.   I would think that a good portion of eastern Europe falls into that category. 

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2019, 12:48:00 PM »
Well some countries are a little different. Saudi Arabia was formed by a deal made by the El Saud family and the British at the time, but their countyhood was still granted in a sense.

Countries like Iraq, Lebanon, Syria etc., many of those borders are completely artificial and are the result of the British and French just kind of carving up the area for themselves and deciding what to do with it. Jordan was a smidge different because of the blood line between the original Hashemite rulers in 1921 and the allied forces who took the whole area from the Ottoman empire after it's collapse and defeat.

Of course one major difference with Israel was the terrorist and military methods Israel used to pressure Britain to give them the land, and while Britain never really could figure out a deal, that use of war and terror caused them to basically just hand it over to the United Nations to figure out since the original Zionists were being such a headache.

So no, it's not all completely equal, but it's all pretty closely related.


Keep in mind I'm simplifying a lot of this because it's a discussion forum and I can't write pages and pages of this stuff.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2019, 01:10:51 PM »
I'm in the "ignorant" camp here too (though I know the basic facts), but Bart, is it that administrative process that irks?  Because the basics of establishing a country because that's where you're camped is not exclusive to Israel, 1948 or otherwise.   I would think that a good portion of eastern Europe falls into that category.
Well, again, I think there was more of an organic growth that resulted in the lines being drawn around Europe. Moreover, the European people generally remained in place. The part that irks me is that there were already a very different people living there when it was handed over to the Jews. This is something that probably could have been done with a bit more tact, I think, were they not fighting the insurgency against the limeys.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2019, 02:00:51 PM »
I'm in the "ignorant" camp here too (though I know the basic facts), but Bart, is it that administrative process that irks?  Because the basics of establishing a country because that's where you're camped is not exclusive to Israel, 1948 or otherwise.   I would think that a good portion of eastern Europe falls into that category.
Well, again, I think there was more of an organic growth that resulted in the lines being drawn around Europe. Moreover, the European people generally remained in place. The part that irks me is that there were already a very different people living there when it was handed over to the Jews. This is something that probably could have been done with a bit more tact, I think, were they not fighting the insurgency against the limeys.

Well yes and no. Jews were moving to Palestine for decades in large numbers before '48. And much of the land that was meant to be for Jewish Israel was land largely occupied by Jews, and not (at the time) by way of excessive force. It's not like the land was completely Arab and then a bunch of European Jews just took it in the late 40's.
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