Author Topic: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks  (Read 4992 times)

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2018, 11:27:32 AM »
Adami, that was very insightful. Thank you. I don't have any specific arguments, though I might have questions about noodling this over for a bit.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »
It was the last post on the previous page? HAH!
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2018, 12:42:58 PM »
Damn fine explanation and easy to follow.

However, they're the crips, not the crypts.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 12:57:04 PM »
Damn fine explanation and easy to follow.

However, they're the crips, not the crypts.


Dammit!
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 05:48:26 PM »
First off, I am sure Adami would disapprove of my knowledge of Israel coming largely from NCIS and the movie Exodus. Regardless, these are meant to be unbiased questions.

First, when Israel first agreed to statehood with the international community, it did not include Jerusalem.

I thought the Jerusalem “issue” was the crux of the argument. Because I believed, based on Wiki: “After the establishment of the state of Israel, Jerusalem was declared its capital city.” There are more sources, I just wanted to be succinct.

No official recognized border that either people are operating in. Israel is currently occupying all of Jerusalem, and exerting legal and military control over East Jerusalem. So they are the de facto rulers of all of Jerusalem, without legal recognition or right to do so…

If over the course of 60-70 years they have assumed the role of de facto rulers of the whole city, at what point do they become the de jure rulers of the city? Why does Israel need UN approval or legal recognition? I know there are UN Declarations and such dealing with the city, but they are just pieces of paper at this point, that it seems have lost whatever traction they might have once had.

Israel has a hugely uneven position since Palestinians have literally no say, no power, and no legal rights that Israel needs to grant them.

So to get philosophical, why the heck would any Palestinian want to live in such at atmosphere? I know the philosophical answer, I just don’t get it.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »
Good questions!

I’m out at the moment but will answer them when I’m home.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2018, 06:13:22 PM »


Now, why would the Israeli government want this? Because fear of Palestinians is the only thing keeping them in power. Without war, without righteous violence against Arabs, without the "they just want to kill all of us for no reason" narrative, the current government loses all of its power. So they will maintain war, violence, and fear at any cost.


Not an argument, a legit question:  is that really true? Or any more than anyone else in "power"?   I sort of have the idea planted in my head that there will always be a need/desire for a strong Israel from the diaspora, and peace among it's enemies isn't enough to derail that.   My limited knowledge opinion only.

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2018, 07:36:08 PM »
I thought the Jerusalem “issue” was the crux of the argument. Because I believed, based on Wiki: “After the establishment of the state of Israel, Jerusalem was declared its capital city.” There are more sources, I just wanted to be succinct.

You misunderstood me. I meant that the history of the city wasn't the crux of MY argument. Yes, Jerusalem is a big deal. I don't know who declared Jerusalem the capital in 1948, but Tel Aviv was the capital when Israel was declared. Israel took over Jerusalem in 1967 after the 6 day war. Israel generally considers Jerusalem their capital, but the rest of the world doesn't agree because there's no law behind it.

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If over the course of 60-70 years they have assumed the role of de facto rulers of the whole city, at what point do they become the de jure rulers of the city? Why does Israel need UN approval or legal recognition? I know there are UN Declarations and such dealing with the city, but they are just pieces of paper at this point, that it seems have lost whatever traction they might have once had.

Because we don't live in a world where countries can do whatever they want, whenever they want. International law states that, since 1949, states cannot legally claim land acquired through aggressive war. Israel can do whatever they want, but if they want anyone else in the world to recognize it (which they clearly do) they need the law on their side. It isn't at the moment. You can claim that Jordan had no right to claim Jerusalem (or the West Bank) when they took it in the 1948 war, and you'd be correct about that as well. However, two wrongs do not make a right.


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So to get philosophical, why the heck would any Palestinian want to live in such at atmosphere? I know the philosophical answer, I just don’t get it.

This is difficult because the millions of Palestinians may have a ton of various reasons, but for the most part it's the same reason why Native Americans haven't moved to Germany or France or whatever. It's their home. Those Palestinians, many of them trace their history there back hundreds of years. I can understand not wanting to give up everything they fought for and just move. They have a strong and deep connection to their land. It's something modern Americans might not be able to relate to, but it's not something one can just simply dismiss.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2018, 07:37:20 PM »


Now, why would the Israeli government want this? Because fear of Palestinians is the only thing keeping them in power. Without war, without righteous violence against Arabs, without the "they just want to kill all of us for no reason" narrative, the current government loses all of its power. So they will maintain war, violence, and fear at any cost.


Not an argument, a legit question:  is that really true? Or any more than anyone else in "power"?   I sort of have the idea planted in my head that there will always be a need/desire for a strong Israel from the diaspora, and peace among it's enemies isn't enough to derail that.   My limited knowledge opinion only.

Yes. I said the current government. They are definitely in power as a "we will fight the evil Arabs" voice. Without war, without fear, without terror, they wouldn't stand a chance at election.

And the relationship between Israel and the diaspora has never been worse than it currently is with the current regime.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2018, 09:18:03 PM »
I don't know who declared Jerusalem the capital in 1948, but Tel Aviv was the capital when Israel was declared.

I was going off of: https://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/bengurion-jer.htm

International law states that, since 1949, states cannot legally claim land acquired through aggressive war. Israel can do whatever they want, but if they want anyone else in the world to recognize it (which they clearly do) they need the law on their side.

I didn’t look at it from this angle.

It's their home. Those Palestinians, many of them trace their history there back hundreds of years.

Human history is replete with movement. I am happy where I live and would be devastated if I felt compelled to move, but at some point I would really have to question if living in a place where I was not wanted and treated like crap was best for me and my family. My dad’s dad thought Yugoslavia wasn’t the best place for him to raise his family, so he packed up and moved to the US, leaving the area where generations of his family before him lived. I just can’t get behind the ideal that “my family has lived here for generations, but because of that we aren’t leaving despite how miserable it is for us here, so feel bad for us.” Home is where you make it.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2018, 09:27:58 PM »
The government site is more on the propaganda side of things.


And like I said, the attachment to the land is just something a lot of Westerns don't understand. I mean, if you feel like completely dismissing it, fine. But you're going to be very confused why they're more than happy to die for it.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #81 on: January 07, 2018, 09:31:58 PM »
Sure but I needed to start somewhere, and if that was a document (or a record) from 1948, it is a valid assessment of history, even if slanted in its view.

And I guess I am dismissing it. Is it really worth sending your sons and daughters out to kill and die because you feel that much "attachment to the land?" Not to me. But of course the fight isn't that simple or about one lone issue.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #82 on: January 07, 2018, 09:38:16 PM »
Well those records, were from almost 1950 and bore no legal standing in the slightest bit. It would be like Trump declaring that Toronto is part of America, everyone saying no, but then he went and had some meetings there.



And about the connection to the land, you might have to chalk that up to "not something I get". Just like I don't get why people why die for religion, but history is filled with it. It's something I accept without having to judge because it's not a personal value or one I'm surrounded by.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #83 on: January 07, 2018, 09:40:57 PM »
Fair enough, and fair enough. I can concede on both accounts. Thank you for the discussion.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Israel approves new settlements ahead of peace talks
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2018, 06:50:24 AM »
And about the connection to the land, you might have to chalk that up to "not something I get". Just like I don't get why people why die for religion, but history is filled with it. It's something I accept without having to judge because it's not a personal value or one I'm surrounded by.

Whether it's obvious or not, this informs much of my political and philosophical thought.  There's no accounting for the "why's", and for the most part, it's not for us to say.    Who I sleep with, where I live, what I choose to do for a career...  the problem is accepting the consequences of those decisions.    It's one thing for me to live in Detroit, lose my job, and decide that family is more important and I'm staying put, or job is more important and I'm moving to Tennessee.   But I have to live with my decision, for better or worse, and the entire country - or in this case, the world - doesn't have to bend to my whim.