Author Topic: The n-word and its use  (Read 6755 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2018, 01:48:59 PM »
She made a tasteless tweet.  But it wasn't racist. 

Maybe, maybe not. The issue is that someone thought it was racist, and that is all that matters these days.

I was going to chime in on the current discussion, but I have nothing to add that hasn't been said.

Being in SBUX country, news of their DAY OF TRAINING ON HOW TO NOT BE RACIST is a hot topic in my local news today. Saw this gem which put things in perspective, from Richard Levick, the CEO of an international crisis communications firm: “This is probably the greatest crisis response since Johnson & Johnson’s Tylenol three-and-a-half decades ago." For reference, that had to do with people dying from taking cyanide-laced capsules of Extra-Strength Tylenol. Clearly something similar to a couple guys being asked to leave a place of business while not engaging the business in any sort of transaction.

I mean, I've worked in Corporate America long enough, and taken enough training in that time, so I get it, but "Training in how not to be a racist" from my EMPLOYER smacks as so much thought police... what next?  Will my employer "teach" me how to vote?   Educate me on the best places to get an abortion, should I ever need one?
Yeah, this is where you and I part ways on this one. While we're both highly bothered by the policing of thought, this doesn't qualify. They have ~300k employees and training them to not be dicks is about as important as training them to draw those goofy tulips in milk. This is a business decision.

No, I get that.  We're not that far apart there; I think where I keep going is that I don't trust the SJWs of the world to see the difference you and I just agreed on.   Next it will be schools; then it will be "brown bag lunches at the subdivision community center", etc. etc.   I don't want schools lecturing my kid on how to treat people.  I want her to learn the old fashioned way; by facing people one on one and realizing that they are just like you, whether fat, skinny, black, white, Muslim, Jew, Christian, whatever. 

My experience - which is worth little, I grant you - is that real change is not from forced lectures, but from organic growth.
Absolutely. Yet education is an important part of that growth. Over the last two months have you not learned anything from the discussion here that might change the way you see, define, or interpret racism? I don't mean that to suggest you've got your head up your ass. I mean that I have picked up on a few things that I might not have recognized as being problematic, and as a similarly thoughtful guy I reckon you have, as well. If what Starbucks is doing is no different than what ConSan is doing here, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't see it as coercive or forcing a mode of thought upon people.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2018, 01:57:43 PM »
Special just for BOSK (as a Golden State fan): Jeremy Lin and Steph Curry have a funny moment over the lyrics to the YG song "My N*gga" -- still relevant to our discussion here:

https://youtu.be/izB8P8oyhJk?t=241

Offline El Barto

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2018, 02:01:12 PM »
You mean the point of hypersensitivity?  No, I think it is a fairly recent development.  In the '70s, you could hear it used on public TV.  I mean, not without any objection.  But not the mass outrage even a private, "innocent" use the term will elicit today.  Unless I misunderstand your point, I don't agree.
I like your distinction between hyper-sensitivity and hyper-awareness. That said, times have changed, as have attitudes. I grew up watching the same shows as you, and we didn't think anything of it. Now if I'm watching a show from the 60s or 70s and I hear it it's a bit of a shock. There's a little twinge there because I realize that it's no longer as acceptable as it once was. You'll never hear me say that a show should be taken off the air, but I am more than just "aware." 
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Offline bosk1

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2018, 02:19:45 PM »
Special just for BOSK (as a Golden State fan): Jeremy Lin and Steph Curry have a funny moment over the lyrics to the YG song "My N*gga" -- still relevant to our discussion here:

https://youtu.be/izB8P8oyhJk?t=241

:lol  I love that.

You mean the point of hypersensitivity?  No, I think it is a fairly recent development.  In the '70s, you could hear it used on public TV.  I mean, not without any objection.  But not the mass outrage even a private, "innocent" use the term will elicit today.  Unless I misunderstand your point, I don't agree.
I like your distinction between hyper-sensitivity and hyper-awareness. That said, times have changed, as have attitudes. I grew up watching the same shows as you, and we didn't think anything of it. Now if I'm watching a show from the 60s or 70s and I hear it it's a bit of a shock. There's a little twinge there because I realize that it's no longer as acceptable as it once was. You'll never hear me say that a show should be taken off the air, but I am more than just "aware." 

Yeah, exactly.  And this probably doesn't need to be said, but:  I'm NOT suggesting that the lack of awareness/sensitivity back then was a good thing and that we should go back to it.  I'm just saying that times were different, that's all.
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Offline Adami

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2018, 02:30:29 PM »
I think one big thing that changed, at least from my limited perception is who is doing the shouting and how loud it is.

Right now the loudest voices (in this context) are from liberals and using tools like social media to become much louder and feeling more free to speak up than people have previously. In the past, much of this kind of thing was from more of a conservative voice with no social media. They generally weren't quite as loud but had a ton of political power because that's what they went for, since there was no social media. Nowadays we just go for likes.


Let's not forget how so many people reacted to profanity in music or TV, or teaching sex-ed in schools.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 02:45:58 PM by Adami »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2018, 04:56:38 PM »
I'm not surprised many people have not thought about it, or at least not given enough empathic listening to that perspective which says: white people shouldn't use it even though people of color (at least many of them) have reclaimed usage of a form of it...

Straight while male take here but I don't like this "reclaiming" the word at all. The only way for people to stop using a word is for people to STOP using a word. This notion that different words "belong" to people is baloney. 
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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2018, 07:01:22 PM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/kendrick-lamar-interrupts-white-fan-after-she-raps-the-n-word-onstage/ar-AAxB7XU?li=BBnb7Kz

Just read this article. In a nut shell Kendrick Lamar invited a white girl on stage to rap/sing along to his song and she did. The issue is that she said the N word. I guess I don't understand this. She sang the song word for word and she is obviously a fan of his since she was at his concert and and knew the words. She was not being racist by any means. He seemed nice enough and let her "try" again, but the whole story just seems odd to me.

I know I'm late to this....

That is just bullshit. Its almost Hypocritical to invite a (white) fan to sing along to a song that blatantly says NAEGGA. He likely did it to cause this very convo we are  having now
It was definitely a setup. It certainly doesn't help that the four line chorus he had them rap had like 6 instances of nigga in it. Having said that, what it would really come down to is if he was using nigga himself throughout his show. If he was censoring himself than she should have known better. Moreover, other people on stage, and her in an earlier instant, also censored themselves, so she knew it was at least something of an issue. In any case, once again I'll say that people need to learn to understand context and quit getting butthurt over unintentional "slights.".

Hence the stupidity of that word...if we want to overcome that. Why do we let words cause problems......its just stupid
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2018, 07:03:29 PM »
Its exactly Mob Rule...

Roseanne just got her season cancelled for a simple tweet.

Imagine if everyone's beloved star said the very same?....
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #148 on: May 31, 2018, 12:16:36 AM »
I basically agree with you, Bosk. My one quibble might be that while perhaps she wasn't purposefully being insensitive, the act still hits a lot of black people as being insensitive. Doesn't mean she's a bad person or was being malicious, yet she could still possibly stand to learn a little more about why, perhaps, she should alter her singing habits in the future.

Also, Chris Rock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdlGeqwHjLE

But do you understand that part of the problem here is that in almost any other context, "offense" is a two-way street.   There's dialogue and the parties hopefully reach a point in the middle. Maybe I'm more sensitive to your feelings and maybe you are more understanding of what I meant.    Here, there is no such thing.  "Recognizing it's problematic" and "acting as if it is problematic" don't at all mean that it SHOULD be "problematic".   I would argue with you that since it is still such a hot button word, the idea that the black community has "reclaimed" the word is bull****.  The "reclamation" clearly has not released any of the pressure from the word.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #149 on: May 31, 2018, 12:26:04 AM »
Absolutely. Yet education is an important part of that growth. Over the last two months have you not learned anything from the discussion here that might change the way you see, define, or interpret racism? I don't mean that to suggest you've got your head up your ass. I mean that I have picked up on a few things that I might not have recognized as being problematic, and as a similarly thoughtful guy I reckon you have, as well. If what Starbucks is doing is no different than what ConSan is doing here, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't see it as coercive or forcing a mode of thought upon people.

Of course I have.  You're right as rain here.  But see what I'm about to write to Adami... I think it fits...

I think one big thing that changed, at least from my limited perception is who is doing the shouting and how loud it is.

Right now the loudest voices (in this context) are from liberals and using tools like social media to become much louder and feeling more free to speak up than people have previously. In the past, much of this kind of thing was from more of a conservative voice with no social media. They generally weren't quite as loud but had a ton of political power because that's what they went for, since there was no social media. Nowadays we just go for likes.

And that's just as bad; "loud" does not equal "right".   That they can yell louder - and bully people into artificial but acceptable (for the moment) behavior is just as wrong in it's own way.    I'm going to torture the analogy here, but it's like a singer; when you go for sheer volume, you sacrifice tone and nuance and emotiveness.  And that's where we're heading, for better or worse, I think (very much for) the worse.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #150 on: May 31, 2018, 12:27:12 AM »
Its exactly Mob Rule...

Roseanne just got her season cancelled for a simple tweet.

Imagine if everyone's beloved star said the very same?....

We don't have to imagine. Alec Baldwin.  Bill Maher.  (Well, Bill Maher is no one's "beloved" star, but still....).

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #151 on: May 31, 2018, 03:56:20 AM »
Straight while male take here but I don't like this "reclaiming" the word at all. The only way for people to stop using a word is for people to STOP using a word. This notion that different words "belong" to people is baloney.

Totally understand where you're coming from, and in fact there are many black people who just want the word to die a historical death. The NAACP even held a symbolic funeral for the word a few years ago. However, other black people DO believe in reclaiming the word as a serious tactic:

Linguistically, the phenomenon of a community taking a word meant as a slur and reappropriating it as a term of endearment is called semantic inversion or semantic looping. The word’s use by African Americans, wrote linguist Andrew T. Jacobs in 2002, "is a strategy for asserting the humanity of black people in the face of continuing racism, a strategy that celebrates an anti-assimilationist vision of African-American identity."

There is a full spectrum of opinions, actually, that is not influenced just by one's race but also one's age. I will link the Washington Post article below, but suffice to say that it alerted me to positions which I had not considered before, one of which was that of another professor who believes the word will eventually be completely accepted within mainstream society for anyone to use as a term of endearment akin to saying "my bro" or "my dude" -- so accepted that there would be no outrage surrounding the word at all. As a teacher of teenagers, I can attest that this is already happening in schools, where the form of the word ending in "a" is widespread (and not just among specifically black students). And, of course, the use of the word in rap lyrics has always presented white fans of hip-hop with a dilemma; a dilemma which some black artists have even navigated by telling white members of their audiences that it was ok to sing the word at their concerts (again: peep the article).

ESSENTIAL READING: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2014/11/09/the-n-word-an-entrenched-racial-slur-now-more-prevalent-than-ever/?utm_term=.cad55bd51e2a





Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #152 on: May 31, 2018, 07:36:43 AM »
I get the scholastic aspect of this; but one of my pet bugaboos here (and elsewhere) is the notion of the "mob" as arbiter of some of these questions.    Why or how did "some rappers" get the authority to "give permission" to use the word and does that bind all of us?   The Kendrick Lamar issue is really indicative here:   he, by all accounts, appeared to make it acceptable - he implicitly "gave permission" - to use the word, then apparently rescinded that permission when it was acted on, almost as if to say "yeah, I told you to, but just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD."   

Please take it from me (someone who works with words every day and has in fact argued over "and" versus "or") that "codifying" something in fancy academic language doesn't make it so, doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it desirable.   It's like taking a Kiss song from 1973 and going back and saying "Ah, yes, the subtle interplay between the rhythm and lead guitars - one playing the root and one playing an inversion - coupled with the bass line - unusually playing a quasi-lead part using thirds and fifths of the harmonic minor scale - creates a tension that can only be resolved - and IS resolved - by the vocal, which beautifully completes the tonic scale."    No, none of that.  Gene was trying to get laid as often as possible, Ace was trying to get as high as possible, Peter was trying to get as rich as possible, and god knows what Paul was doing.   

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #153 on: May 31, 2018, 07:51:27 AM »
social mores change over time.   I don't know if I'd call that "mob rule".

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #154 on: May 31, 2018, 07:56:51 AM »
I get the scholastic aspect of this; but one of my pet bugaboos here (and elsewhere) is the notion of the "mob" as arbiter of some of these questions.    Why or how did "some rappers" get the authority to "give permission" to use the word and does that bind all of us?   The Kendrick Lamar issue is really indicative here:   he, by all accounts, appeared to make it acceptable - he implicitly "gave permission" - to use the word, then apparently rescinded that permission when it was acted on, almost as if to say "yeah, I told you to, but just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD."   

Please take it from me (someone who works with words every day and has in fact argued over "and" versus "or") that "codifying" something in fancy academic language doesn't make it so, doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it desirable.   It's like taking a Kiss song from 1973 and going back and saying "Ah, yes, the subtle interplay between the rhythm and lead guitars - one playing the root and one playing an inversion - coupled with the bass line - unusually playing a quasi-lead part using thirds and fifths of the harmonic minor scale - creates a tension that can only be resolved - and IS resolved - by the vocal, which beautifully completes the tonic scale."    No, none of that.  Gene was trying to get laid as often as possible, Ace was trying to get as high as possible, Peter was trying to get as rich as possible, and god knows what Paul was doing.


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Offline El Barto

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #155 on: May 31, 2018, 08:18:02 AM »
Absolutely. Yet education is an important part of that growth. Over the last two months have you not learned anything from the discussion here that might change the way you see, define, or interpret racism? I don't mean that to suggest you've got your head up your ass. I mean that I have picked up on a few things that I might not have recognized as being problematic, and as a similarly thoughtful guy I reckon you have, as well. If what Starbucks is doing is no different than what ConSan is doing here, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't see it as coercive or forcing a mode of thought upon people.

Of course I have.  You're right as rain here.  But see what I'm about to write to Adami... I think it fits...

I think one big thing that changed, at least from my limited perception is who is doing the shouting and how loud it is.

Right now the loudest voices (in this context) are from liberals and using tools like social media to become much louder and feeling more free to speak up than people have previously. In the past, much of this kind of thing was from more of a conservative voice with no social media. They generally weren't quite as loud but had a ton of political power because that's what they went for, since there was no social media. Nowadays we just go for likes.

And that's just as bad; "loud" does not equal "right".   That they can yell louder - and bully people into artificial but acceptable (for the moment) behavior is just as wrong in it's own way.    I'm going to torture the analogy here, but it's like a singer; when you go for sheer volume, you sacrifice tone and nuance and emotiveness.  And that's where we're heading, for better or worse, I think (very much for) the worse.
What we've been discussing here is the Starbucks training, which people here have assumed is indoctrination, as opposed to education.  You expressed concern that they were training their employees to be non-racist. As you put it, shoving tolerance down people's throats. What we're seeing is that it's more about pointing out how people can behave with racial bias without realizing it. I see no reason for outrage over the latter. In fact, as annoying as it may be to me, I think it's an overall benefit.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #156 on: May 31, 2018, 08:22:26 AM »
The Starbucks training went way beyond just racial judgement. From everything I've read, it focused heavily on how we perceive people (outside of race) without thinking about it. Everyone of us on this board is guilty of this from time to time. There's no way around it.

One example from Starbucks training involved a cashier observing an older, white, scruffy looking guy walking up to a woman in the store. The cashier misread the woman's visual cues (probably fueled by the man's looks and her idea of what that look meant) and told the man that panhandling wasn't allowed in the store. She assumed the guy was homeless and asking the woman for money. Turns out it was her husband.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #157 on: May 31, 2018, 09:32:03 AM »
social mores change over time.   I don't know if I'd call that "mob rule".

Well, they are not the same, but they are intertwined.  I believe - or rather, I would suggest - that Bosk's "hypersensitivity" is the intersection point.   We recognize that the mores have to evolve, and we have the stimuli from the mob, and it's reflected in that hypersensitivity right now, until it can settle down.   

The problem here, which we keep going back to, is that "mores" are customs or characteristics of a society.   They are NOT rules.   There might be consequences for deviating from those customs, but generally those consequences are benign and subtle.   Tattoos are a great example; used to be, "tattoos" in and of themselves were a symbol of a deviation from the customary.  Was a time when the only people to have tattoos were military personnel and/or criminals.  That's clearly evolved, but in the meantime, no one was shamed, no one was bullied, no one was criminalized for having a tat.   About a year ago, I was in a bar, sitting next to a guy about my age, and on the other side a very attractive woman of about 25 or so - cute, blonde pixie cut, modest white tanktop, some pastel colored shorts... and a full sleeve down her right arm - comes up and orders a round of drinks for her table.  She leaves and the guy next to me says "She's your kid's kindergarten teacher", meaning, the times have changed and we don't even think twice about a full arm of tattoos on young women entrusted to care for our most precious cargo. 

The "punishment" - and let's not forget that it's a legit question as to whether there should even BE punishment here - for the violation of the "race" mores has become so beyond the scope of the underlying "crime" that it's now in the realm of "mob rule".   We're not administering subtle consequences  for choosing to walk a half-step out of step, no, we're now reigning down harsh consequences for same.  That's to me "mob rule".  That's to me forcing behaviors and thoughts to conform.  Not to "society" but to the preconceived acceptable form of society as espoused by a certain vocal ("loud") subsection of that society.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #158 on: May 31, 2018, 09:38:56 AM »
Absolutely. Yet education is an important part of that growth. Over the last two months have you not learned anything from the discussion here that might change the way you see, define, or interpret racism? I don't mean that to suggest you've got your head up your ass. I mean that I have picked up on a few things that I might not have recognized as being problematic, and as a similarly thoughtful guy I reckon you have, as well. If what Starbucks is doing is no different than what ConSan is doing here, then I don't have a problem with it. I don't see it as coercive or forcing a mode of thought upon people.

Of course I have.  You're right as rain here.  But see what I'm about to write to Adami... I think it fits...

I think one big thing that changed, at least from my limited perception is who is doing the shouting and how loud it is.

Right now the loudest voices (in this context) are from liberals and using tools like social media to become much louder and feeling more free to speak up than people have previously. In the past, much of this kind of thing was from more of a conservative voice with no social media. They generally weren't quite as loud but had a ton of political power because that's what they went for, since there was no social media. Nowadays we just go for likes.

And that's just as bad; "loud" does not equal "right".   That they can yell louder - and bully people into artificial but acceptable (for the moment) behavior is just as wrong in it's own way.    I'm going to torture the analogy here, but it's like a singer; when you go for sheer volume, you sacrifice tone and nuance and emotiveness.  And that's where we're heading, for better or worse, I think (very much for) the worse.
What we've been discussing here is the Starbucks training, which people here have assumed is indoctrination, as opposed to education.  You expressed concern that they were training their employees to be non-racist. As you put it, shoving tolerance down people's throats. What we're seeing is that it's more about pointing out how people can behave with racial bias without realizing it. I see no reason for outrage over the latter. In fact, as annoying as it may be to me, I think it's an overall benefit.

No, no, I get you and don't really disagree.   I was really more concerned with one step further.  You and I (and I think most people here) see that S-Bux training for what it was and I think you articulated that very well.  I don't at all have any faith that the SJWs see it that same way.   I'm always for more education over less, and I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from a well-presented class.  I'm worried that the next time it WON'T be the positive "pointing out" to people, but will be the indoctrination.  When the "loudest voice" gets involved, the nuance of your explanation will undoubtedly be lost. 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #159 on: May 31, 2018, 10:06:35 AM »
The Starbucks training went way beyond just racial judgement. From everything I've read, it focused heavily on how we perceive people (outside of race) without thinking about it. Everyone of us on this board is guilty of this from time to time. There's no way around it.

One example from Starbucks....

That's not a good example though. The Starbucks gal looked at the dude, consciously thought, "hmmm.... looks like a bum, dressed like a bum, acting like a bum... probably a bum." That's not the same as the unconscious bias the training was supposed to address.
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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #160 on: May 31, 2018, 01:16:06 PM »
social mores change over time.   I don't know if I'd call that "mob rule".

Well, they are not the same, but they are intertwined.  I believe - or rather, I would suggest - that Bosk's "hypersensitivity" is the intersection point.   We recognize that the mores have to evolve, and we have the stimuli from the mob, and it's reflected in that hypersensitivity right now, until it can settle down.   

The problem here, which we keep going back to, is that "mores" are customs or characteristics of a society.   They are NOT rules.   There might be consequences for deviating from those customs, but generally those consequences are benign and subtle.   Tattoos are a great example; used to be, "tattoos" in and of themselves were a symbol of a deviation from the customary.  Was a time when the only people to have tattoos were military personnel and/or criminals.  That's clearly evolved, but in the meantime, no one was shamed, no one was bullied, no one was criminalized for having a tat.   About a year ago, I was in a bar, sitting next to a guy about my age, and on the other side a very attractive woman of about 25 or so - cute, blonde pixie cut, modest white tanktop, some pastel colored shorts... and a full sleeve down her right arm - comes up and orders a round of drinks for her table.  She leaves and the guy next to me says "She's your kid's kindergarten teacher", meaning, the times have changed and we don't even think twice about a full arm of tattoos on young women entrusted to care for our most precious cargo. 

The "punishment" - and let's not forget that it's a legit question as to whether there should even BE punishment here - for the violation of the "race" mores has become so beyond the scope of the underlying "crime" that it's now in the realm of "mob rule".   We're not administering subtle consequences  for choosing to walk a half-step out of step, no, we're now reigning down harsh consequences for same.  That's to me "mob rule".  That's to me forcing behaviors and thoughts to conform.  Not to "society" but to the preconceived acceptable form of society as espoused by a certain vocal ("loud") subsection of that society.

The "punishment" aspect of this is interesting to me. Rosanne got fired for telling a joke. The quality of the joke can and should be debated but I've heard way worse and offensive things from other comedians. Still, she got fired for typing some words which many deemed offensive and ultimately she'll be deemed a pariah and will probably never "work" in the business again. This is the land where child molesters and convicted murders can get second chances yet an offensive tweet, joke, etc. makes you nonredeemable? Just seems like we have priorities and values out of whack.


Offline El Barto

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #161 on: May 31, 2018, 01:21:05 PM »
I would argue that she got fired for damaging the brand of her employer.

And she'll be fine.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #162 on: May 31, 2018, 01:28:11 PM »
And another famous female comedienne who has recently been making her bones as a "political commentator" just called another woman a "feckless c***" and implied - strongly - that she was involved in an incestuous relationship with her father.   Fired?  Nope.   Show cancelled?  Nope.   Actually, not a word from the station for which she works.   One "apology tweet" and the partisan double-standard bias train continues on to the next station, on schedule!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/samantha-bee-apologizes-for-%e2%80%98inappropriate-and-inexcusable%e2%80%99-ivanka-trump-insult/ar-AAy4BMZ?ocid=ientp

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #163 on: May 31, 2018, 01:28:37 PM »
I would argue that she got fired for damaging the brand of her employer.

And she'll be fine.

for real, we haven't seen the last of Roseanne, for better or worse.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #164 on: May 31, 2018, 01:42:51 PM »
social mores change over time.   I don't know if I'd call that "mob rule".

Well, they are not the same, but they are intertwined.  I believe - or rather, I would suggest - that Bosk's "hypersensitivity" is the intersection point.   We recognize that the mores have to evolve, and we have the stimuli from the mob, and it's reflected in that hypersensitivity right now, until it can settle down.   

The problem here, which we keep going back to, is that "mores" are customs or characteristics of a society.   They are NOT rules.   There might be consequences for deviating from those customs, but generally those consequences are benign and subtle.   Tattoos are a great example; used to be, "tattoos" in and of themselves were a symbol of a deviation from the customary.  Was a time when the only people to have tattoos were military personnel and/or criminals.  That's clearly evolved, but in the meantime, no one was shamed, no one was bullied, no one was criminalized for having a tat.   About a year ago, I was in a bar, sitting next to a guy about my age, and on the other side a very attractive woman of about 25 or so - cute, blonde pixie cut, modest white tanktop, some pastel colored shorts... and a full sleeve down her right arm - comes up and orders a round of drinks for her table.  She leaves and the guy next to me says "She's your kid's kindergarten teacher", meaning, the times have changed and we don't even think twice about a full arm of tattoos on young women entrusted to care for our most precious cargo. 

The "punishment" - and let's not forget that it's a legit question as to whether there should even BE punishment here - for the violation of the "race" mores has become so beyond the scope of the underlying "crime" that it's now in the realm of "mob rule".   We're not administering subtle consequences  for choosing to walk a half-step out of step, no, we're now reigning down harsh consequences for same.  That's to me "mob rule".  That's to me forcing behaviors and thoughts to conform.  Not to "society" but to the preconceived acceptable form of society as espoused by a certain vocal ("loud") subsection of that society.

The "punishment" aspect of this is interesting to me. Rosanne got fired for telling a joke. The quality of the joke can and should be debated but I've heard way worse and offensive things from other comedians. Still, she got fired for typing some words which many deemed offensive and ultimately she'll be deemed a pariah and will probably never "work" in the business again. This is the land where child molesters and convicted murders can get second chances yet an offensive tweet, joke, etc. makes you nonredeemable? Just seems like we have priorities and values out of whack.
I would argue that she got fired for damaging the brand of her employer.

And she'll be fine.

I would argue that both arguments have some validity to them.  But the one thing your argument does not really take into account is the bias issue that Stadler highlighted. 
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Offline Chino

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #165 on: May 31, 2018, 01:45:48 PM »
I have a hard time wrapping my head around how someone can sit through a whole episode of Full Frontal let alone watch it regularly. Even as a pretty liberal person, she's extremely cringe worthy to me. Her show makes no effort to reach anyone other than the lowest common denominator of the left.

I'd be willing to wager that Fox picks up Roseanne, especially seeing as they recently picked up Last Man Standing. My concern with Roseanne would be not being able to get all of the cast members willing to sign on again.

Also, the network did apologize for Samantha Bee. It's a garbage and hollow apology, obviously, but they still said something.

"Samantha Bee has taken the right action in apologizing for the vile and inappropriate language she used about Ivanka Trump last night. Those words should not have been aired. It was our mistake too, and we regret it."

Offline kaos2900

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #166 on: May 31, 2018, 01:46:22 PM »
And another famous female comedienne who has recently been making her bones as a "political commentator" just called another woman a "feckless c***" and implied - strongly - that she was involved in an incestuous relationship with her father.   Fired?  Nope.   Show cancelled?  Nope.   Actually, not a word from the station for which she works.   One "apology tweet" and the partisan double-standard bias train continues on to the next station, on schedule!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/samantha-bee-apologizes-for-%e2%80%98inappropriate-and-inexcusable%e2%80%99-ivanka-trump-insult/ar-AAy4BMZ?ocid=ientp

And I'm sure she's really sorry.  ::)

Offline Harmony

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #167 on: May 31, 2018, 01:55:54 PM »
This is getting out of control.  I don't agree with Samantha Bee using that word.

But it is interesting to me that Ted Nugent can call Hillary the same word and be cordially invited to The White House.

One wonders where this will all end.   :justjen

Offline El Barto

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #168 on: May 31, 2018, 02:01:25 PM »
edit: Oh, and then there's that ^^^^^^^

social mores change over time.   I don't know if I'd call that "mob rule".

Well, they are not the same, but they are intertwined.  I believe - or rather, I would suggest - that Bosk's "hypersensitivity" is the intersection point.   We recognize that the mores have to evolve, and we have the stimuli from the mob, and it's reflected in that hypersensitivity right now, until it can settle down.   

The problem here, which we keep going back to, is that "mores" are customs or characteristics of a society.   They are NOT rules.   There might be consequences for deviating from those customs, but generally those consequences are benign and subtle.   Tattoos are a great example; used to be, "tattoos" in and of themselves were a symbol of a deviation from the customary.  Was a time when the only people to have tattoos were military personnel and/or criminals.  That's clearly evolved, but in the meantime, no one was shamed, no one was bullied, no one was criminalized for having a tat.   About a year ago, I was in a bar, sitting next to a guy about my age, and on the other side a very attractive woman of about 25 or so - cute, blonde pixie cut, modest white tanktop, some pastel colored shorts... and a full sleeve down her right arm - comes up and orders a round of drinks for her table.  She leaves and the guy next to me says "She's your kid's kindergarten teacher", meaning, the times have changed and we don't even think twice about a full arm of tattoos on young women entrusted to care for our most precious cargo. 

The "punishment" - and let's not forget that it's a legit question as to whether there should even BE punishment here - for the violation of the "race" mores has become so beyond the scope of the underlying "crime" that it's now in the realm of "mob rule".   We're not administering subtle consequences  for choosing to walk a half-step out of step, no, we're now reigning down harsh consequences for same.  That's to me "mob rule".  That's to me forcing behaviors and thoughts to conform.  Not to "society" but to the preconceived acceptable form of society as espoused by a certain vocal ("loud") subsection of that society.

The "punishment" aspect of this is interesting to me. Rosanne got fired for telling a joke. The quality of the joke can and should be debated but I've heard way worse and offensive things from other comedians. Still, she got fired for typing some words which many deemed offensive and ultimately she'll be deemed a pariah and will probably never "work" in the business again. This is the land where child molesters and convicted murders can get second chances yet an offensive tweet, joke, etc. makes you nonredeemable? Just seems like we have priorities and values out of whack.
I would argue that she got fired for damaging the brand of her employer.

And she'll be fine.

I would argue that both arguments have some validity to them.  But the one thing your argument does not really take into account is the bias issue that Stadler highlighted.
It's a business decision. If the social climate were such that calling Trump's minions would result in a boycott of your product then we'd see greater consequences. The reality is that you can't assail random black women but you can go after Trump's minions.

And this won't matter to most, but I think there's a difference in the level of the insults. That Bee woman was addressing Ivanka directly. Rosanne took a random shot at somebody most of us had never heard of, based allegedly on her race.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2018, 02:58:42 PM »
This is getting out of control.  I don't agree with Samantha Bee using that word.

But it is interesting to me that Ted Nugent can call Hillary the same word and be cordially invited to The White House.

One wonders where this will all end.   :justjen

Well, it ends when we can recognize the process for what it is: bullying and mob rule.   I personally don't want Samantha Bee fired - it's her prerogative to call someone whatever she wants; the incest thing is approaching slander, but it's not my case to bring - and I could care less about Ted Nugent (and counter with a Harvey Weinstein, the "good friend" of Michelle Obama).   Highlighting examples isn't the point - at least, it isn't MY point, because it implies one side is right and one side is wrong.    My point is more basic.   The problem for me is when we're celebrating SOME authenticity because we, the mob, is down with it at that point in time, but castigating others' authenticity because it "offends our sensibility". To me there ought to be NO sides.   

If there's a person, somewhere, that is offended that someone else is a racist - i.e. gravitates to racist ideologies - then for the life of me I can't fathom why it's not acceptable that there be a person, somewhere, that is offended that someone else is a homosexual.   Or pro-life; or pro-choice; or pro-Dream Theater; or pro-Sons of Apollo.   We've partitioned ourselves off into sides, and with sides comes disagreement, and with disagreement comes conflict, then, like children, we wonder, "why did that happen?"

Offline Harmony

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2018, 03:11:29 PM »
But wait, didn't you bring her up in the conversation?  Why do that if you don't see anything wrong with what she said?

Frankly, I find the contortions some people are finding themselves in pretty amusing.

But nothing amuses me more than being lectured to about "vile and vicious language" by the White House.   :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2018, 08:08:08 PM »
But wait, didn't you bring her up in the conversation?  Why do that if you don't see anything wrong with what she said?

Frankly, I find the contortions some people are finding themselves in pretty amusing.

But nothing amuses me more than being lectured to about "vile and vicious language" by the White House.   :lol

There is absolutely zero contorting over here.  NONE.  I celebrate free speech almost to an absolute.    Sam Bee should be able to say what she wants (to a degree) and Roseanne should be able to say what SHE wants, to the same degree.    I pointed out Sam Bee because of the hypocrisy of the left and the mob that DEMANDS Roseanne be fired IMMEDIATELY, with her castmates scattering like roaches in the light, whereas Sam Bee says something that is arguably as offensive and not only does she get a slap on the wrist, but Kathy Griffin, Sally Field (in her own "c***"-laced tweet where she basically doubled down and said Ivanka isn't even good enough to be a "c***") and others have stepped on their pantyhose to back her up and praised her "courage".

Trust me; I've played sports for the better part of 30 years and been married for almost 20; it takes absolutely ZERO courage to call someone a "c***".  In fact, it takes exactly the same amount of courage as calling someone an "ape". 

As for the White House, that just makes it more subjective and more obnoxious.  I'm not exactly sure what we're calling "vile and vicious", but it is just another data point to show that the mob is not reliable enough to be the 'police officer' here.   

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2018, 09:05:10 PM »
Feckless will be Webster's Word of the Year for 2018. I am calling it now. Or maybe it will be n***a.

Straight while male take here but I don't like this "reclaiming" the word at all. The only way for people to stop using a word is for people to STOP using a word. This notion that different words "belong" to people is baloney.

Linguistically, the phenomenon of a community taking a word meant as a slur and reappropriating it as a term of endearment is called semantic inversion or semantic looping. The word’s use by African Americans, wrote linguist Andrew T. Jacobs in 2002, "is a strategy for asserting the humanity of black people in the face of continuing racism, a strategy that celebrates an anti-assimilationist vision of African-American identity."

Boy that is a word salad. "...anti-assimilationist vision of African-American identity."  :huh: Is calling each other n***a really the best way you can figure to "assert your humanity?"

.....another professor who believes the word will eventually be completely accepted within mainstream society for anyone to use as a term of endearment akin to saying "my bro" or "my dude" -- so accepted that there would be no outrage surrounding the word at all.

Interesting. From the article:
Quote
“Let evolution happen. Let pop culture take that word away to the ocean, and let anyone use it. . . . That word’s not meant for us anymore. ‘Nigga’ is a part of pop culture. It’s just a word, but it shouldn’t be chained to us, for lack of a better word. It shouldn’t be a part of who we are.”

Why would we let "pop culture" define who can say what, where, when, and how? Why is Kendrick Lamar the arbiter of cultural mores?
Otherwise I agree it shouldn't be part of who you are.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #173 on: June 01, 2018, 08:14:40 AM »
But wait, didn't you bring her up in the conversation?  Why do that if you don't see anything wrong with what she said?

Frankly, I find the contortions some people are finding themselves in pretty amusing.

But nothing amuses me more than being lectured to about "vile and vicious language" by the White House.   :lol

There is absolutely zero contorting over here.  NONE.

That part was meant as a general statement.  Not directed at anyone here.  That's why I said "some people" and not "you".

Offline Stadler

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Re: The n-word and its use
« Reply #174 on: June 01, 2018, 10:53:05 AM »
But wait, didn't you bring her up in the conversation?  Why do that if you don't see anything wrong with what she said?

Frankly, I find the contortions some people are finding themselves in pretty amusing.

But nothing amuses me more than being lectured to about "vile and vicious language" by the White House.   :lol

There is absolutely zero contorting over here.  NONE.

That part was meant as a general statement.  Not directed at anyone here.  That's why I said "some people" and not "you".

No, I get it; just using your word.   Even if you DID direct it at me, we're good. It's a good conversation.