Author Topic: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)  (Read 14692 times)

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Offline erasiel

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Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« on: July 28, 2013, 01:25:41 PM »
Over in this other thread https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=38245.0 I provided some of the fascinating info MP divulged on his commentary for the Score drumcam DVD.

A few folks have asked for more of MP's extensive comments on the meaning of the Raise the Knife lyrics and his thoughts on Kevin Moore, so I typed them in. This represents a full 10 minutes of commentary. I've bolded a few of the parts I thought were most interesting. THANKS Mike for being so candid, we as fans appreciate these insights!

This is Raise the Knife which is previously unreleased or at least officially. This is from the FII sessions and this is basically the FII representative in the set list. Some nights in this tour we would do Peruvian skies or Speak to Me, another unreleased song from that era. I knew that RtK needed to be at this particular show because it was nice to finally have a properly recorded and released version of it. This is the first song we wrote for the FII album. Obviously a lot of songs didn't make that album but this is the first song we wrote with Derek.

Why did this one get cut?

We would have loved to have made it a double album and had everything on there but inevitably some stuff had to get cut and the label and Kevin Shirley and everyone was going for a more commercial album and this was a longer song, a little more progressive. I would have liked to have had it on there but anyway, that's the way the ball bounces, G, in the immortal words of Flavor Flav.

This song, I don't know if I've ever talked about this, but this first verse was written for Jim Petulsky (sp?) who was our manager pre FII and when we were making FII our two managers Rob Schur (sp?) and Jim Petulsky had a falling out and broke up their partnership and we had to kinda choose one or the other and I got outvoted, which is the line "once again outnumbered". Jim unfortunately was on the short end of the stick of that marriage, or divorce I should say, so these lyrics were written for him, which I felt really badly parting ways with him because he was very devoted and dedicated and he really got the band and it was sad to see him go.

But then the rest of the song is about Kevin Moore, from this point its about Kevin who also split with us around that period. These are not the nicest lyrics I've ever written (laughs). "Tortured artist bares the soul, now he's keeps the publishing..." I was very resentful that Kevin walked out on the band and essentially walked out on the fans but yet he was held in such high regards by the fans and yet we were the ones sticking it out and not breaking up and not quitting...a lot of people doubted our future, which is the next verse, "doubting my future, you don't even know me", reading the digests you shown me, that has to do with the Ytsejam digest which was popular at that time, before there were message boards and I would read on these Ytsejam digests how fans were doubting our future and "Kevin was this genius" and blah blah blah, and Kev was the one that walked out on them, and we were the ones that were trying to continue DT for the fans and yet we were kind of getting doubted, so that's what a lot of these lyrics are about, that frustration. This whole period was so frustrating for me, and its all been documented elsewhere. Most of the lyrics I wrote for FII - New Millennium and this one, Burning my Soul and Just Let Me Breathe, they are all so frustrated.

These lyrics if you really look at them they are very, very mean towards Kevin. I'm surprised I haven't been called on it a lot more. People either didn't know it or haven't noticed...I guess because its more of an obscure song, but once it came out on Score... "laughing sarcastically as you turned your back on the people that adored you." I'm really rubbing salt into the wounds by even talking about it it right now. There's some cool drumming going on right now though. Oh wait, am I playing drums right now? I forgot to even...

"I'll take the blame for these things that I say 'Cause I had the heart and the will and the courage to stay". That's me saying, you know what, I don't care if I take heat for writing these words because I'm still here and I'm still here for the fans. Anyway...

Yeah we did the OSI albums together and I was kind of hoping for a better experience with those as well. I still had fond memories of Kevin and I do have a lot of respect for him as an artist. I love what he does. But honestly the OSI albums weren't that much fun for me. Kev is just a very difficult person to work with. He's very stubborn, very closed minded, and after doing the OSI albums I came to the conclusion that if he hadn't left Dream Theater, Dream Theater would have imploded many, many, many years ago. So actually the best thing he could have ever done for Dream Theater, himself and the fans was to leave the band and let us do our thing because there's no way we would have existed.

He was like that in the band too?

He got worse and worse, but when he left the band he was at his most closed-minded and detached. He was totally detached and he doesn't want anything to do with DT. I invited him to come out and join us at this Score show, he wouldn't do it. I invited him to join us at several other shows and be part of the Score Documentary. He's the only band member that didn't contribute to that, he's the only band member that didn't contribute to the book, and you know, after a while, you can only be shut out and said no to and be disregarded so many times before you start to take it personally. Anyway, enough about Kev.

You know what, the final Kev statement. (laughs). I remember when I asked him to join us for the WDADRU performance in LA and he didn't do that and then he didn't do this show and I realized, you know what, thank god he didn't. Because those shows would have been about him and that show and this show wasn't about him, it was about us, who had been doing this for 15 years or 20 years and this night was about celebrating us doing it for 20 years, not celebrating the people that walked out and left us behind. So, to that I say, Kevin no more.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 04:28:49 PM »
This had later been taken to a 10x degree with his own departure from DT and the subsequent fallout with public favor, but one of the most striking aspects about MP is that while he sees himself as the one closest to the fans in communication, he has such a poor handle on the psychology of them. There is a reason he got flak after his own departure, and there is a reason why people put KM on the pedestal they did.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 05:48:36 PM »
This also lends itself to another suspicion I had.    Although I admit it to be PURE speculation based on very few established facts.

It seems to me that (through no particular fault of either MP or KM...just different personalities and approaches) it's possible that maybe KM just didn't like MP that much.    And I feel that in making a claim like that, I should repeat for emphasis....this is not a reflection on MP or KM in any way...sometimes, two very nice people just rub each other the wrong way....or one rubs the other the wrong way...or vice versa.    If you've ever had two people that you liked that didn't get along for reasons that baffle you...you'll know what I'm talking about.

Mike is very dynamic.   And while he is fiercely loyal to family and friends and fans as well...I'm sure that being couped up around his (self admitted) OCD tendencies for a world tour is not something everyone in the free born world can abide by.     Kevin may be a nice guy...but he's acting like someone who just decided that he really didn't want to work with Mike anymore.    It seems to me that Mike is right about one thing...leaving the band is one thing...but refusing to have anything to do with it whatsoever (when he seemed happy to play the same style of music for people like Jim Matheos) takes it to a level that is a bit more personal.   I think he had a problem with personalities within the band that he doesn't want to vent personally or publicly.    He just avoids the confrontation by staying away.    It might be Mike...but heck, it may have been John or James...but in any event, it does seem to be more personal than just a musical style change.
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Offline RMGadelha

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 05:55:41 PM »
This thread made me want to listen to Raise the Knife again, but not because of the theme, but because I've remembered how much I love this song, specially the Score version. I hate when I forget songs that I love  :facepalm:

Offline rumborak

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 06:21:15 PM »
@jammin:

I think I mostly agree, with a slightly different tack. There's definitely a clash of personality between KM and MP. I would argue though that the main reason for KM to leave was musical in the end. If you look at how MP goes music and how KM goes about it, there's not much overlap. KM writes his music like a hen sitting on an egg for 4 month; completely introspective, revising and revising until things are exactly the way he wants them to be. MP takes a much more "mechanical" approach to it, assembling it from pieces in a methodical fashion. Me connecting with KM's approach much more, I can see how he could just not jive his desire for artistic perfection with what DT wrote.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 06:49:03 PM »
This also lends itself to another suspicion I had.    Although I admit it to be PURE speculation based on very few established facts.

It seems to me that (through no particular fault of either MP or KM...just different personalities and approaches) it's possible that maybe KM just didn't like MP that much.    And I feel that in making a claim like that, I should repeat for emphasis....this is not a reflection on MP or KM in any way...sometimes, two very nice people just rub each other the wrong way....or one rubs the other the wrong way...or vice versa.    If you've ever had two people that you liked that didn't get along for reasons that baffle you...you'll know what I'm talking about.

Mike is very dynamic.   And while he is fiercely loyal to family and friends and fans as well...I'm sure that being couped up around his (self admitted) OCD tendencies for a world tour is not something everyone in the free born world can abide by.     Kevin may be a nice guy...but he's acting like someone who just decided that he really didn't want to work with Mike anymore.    It seems to me that Mike is right about one thing...leaving the band is one thing...but refusing to have anything to do with it whatsoever (when he seemed happy to play the same style of music for people like Jim Matheos) takes it to a level that is a bit more personal.   I think he had a problem with personalities within the band that he doesn't want to vent personally or publicly.    He just avoids the confrontation by staying away.    It might be Mike...but heck, it may have been John or James...but in any event, it does seem to be more personal than just a musical style change.

It still perplexes me though, that Kevin chose to completely shut himself away from DT in such a total manner. I mean, not contributing to the book, to the documentary, etc... It really feels almost like he's trying to deny ever being in it. And I honestly can't even imagine why. Especially since he agreed to work with MP on OSI. It just seems like such a strange decision to completely isolate yourself from any aspect of the band at all, and I can't even remotely comprehend why.

And by the way, thanks so much for posting this, erasiel. Very cool stuff.
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 07:17:14 PM »
Very cool stuff, I really love commentaries of any kind. The only reason I'd ever buy MP drum cam footage is to hear the commentaries.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 07:19:27 PM »
Well...remember that from the sounds of things, Mike and Kev had almost zero interaction during the OSI project. By my recollection, the Set the Controls cover came from the only day they actually spent together in the studio. I think Jim was the guy who got the two together...
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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 11:13:18 PM »
It seems to me that Mike is right about one thing...leaving the band is one thing...but refusing to have anything to do with it whatsoever (when he seemed happy to play the same style of music for people like Jim Matheos) takes it to a level that is a bit more personal.   I think he had a problem with personalities within the band that he doesn't want to vent personally or publicly.    He just avoids the confrontation by staying away.    It might be Mike...but heck, it may have been John or James...but in any event, it does seem to be more personal than just a musical style change.
I find OSI really different from DT (which is something Kevin himself pointed out). Sure they both fit under the umbrella of progressive metal, but OSI's music has much more focus on atmosphere and textures than technical instrumentation.

I believe Kevin's reason for leaving DT was a purely musical one - he has said there was no bad blood, he just wanted to move on. However, if you compare the way he talked about DT prior to the recording of the first OSI album and after that, there's a clear difference. In an interview from 2000 he said he doesn't mind the DT connection, because otherwise no one would know him, but around the release of the OSI debut he claimed the DT albums don't really mean much (if anything) to him anymore. Don't want to sound like I'm making MP a scapegoat, but I definitely think the experience of working together was unpleasant enough to make Kevin want to ignore DT completely. You should remember that Kevin was asked to join the LSFNY performance even before the OSI experience, but in 2010 JP said Kevin had called him "out of the blue" when some DVD that included old footage had been released, so Kevin most likely didn't have a problem with anyone except MP.

Luckily I find Raise the Knife so boring musically that I never listen to it, because the lyrics would make it pretty tough :lol I've never really understood why MP was so angry at Kev for leaving - I know the timing was bad, but was there ever really a right time? If Kevin had forced himself to tour for the sake of loyalty to the band I bet the tour would've been a really awkward experience for everyone, because there would've been one guy who had lost all his interest in the band's music. And as rumborak pointed out, there's a reason MP gets more flak for how he handled his departure than KM did.

(Milena, I know you have all the interviews so you can post the direct KM quotes :lol)

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 11:43:50 PM »
It is absurd to imply or even say that Moore walked out on the fans or the band; I am pretty sure no one ever signs a lifetime contract with a band.  Bands see members leave all of the time, but it doesn't mean those guys walked out on the band or the fans.  That has always been a silly assertion.  It is even sillier to suggest that the band stayed together for the fans; they stayed together to make music. 

And if people did doubt the band at the time, well, they only had released three albums at that point, and considering Awake didn't have the mainstream success that I&W did, any doubts were more than reasonable.  It was much different in 1994 than it was in 2010; the band has much more of a reputation and legacy later than they did that early in their career. 

This had later been taken to a 10x degree with his own departure from DT and the subsequent fallout with public favor, but one of the most striking aspects about MP is that while he sees himself as the one closest to the fans in communication, he has such a poor handle on the psychology of them. There is a reason he got flak after his own departure, and there is a reason why people put KM on the pedestal they did.

Agreed.  I don't necessarily fault Portnoy for feeling the way he does - you can't help how you feel - but his various public fits about it over the years was very off-putting.  I know some like to criticize Moore for never talking about the band anymore or playing at the special shows for them, but if we can assume that there are negative reasons as to why, he is taking the very high road by not mentioning them and merely staying away.  Sure, the many DT fans who love to soak in any and all knowledge about the band and their history would love to hear more from Moore, but from a humanistic standpoint, what he has done is actually very classy.  He is taking the high road by not letting himself be drawn into any of the drama that would surely come from any band-related comment he would make that wasn't positive.

By keeping silent, combined with his presence and writing on two of the band's most popular records to date, he is almost a mysterious persona, one who has the quiet genius reputation, fair or not.  He is similar to Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd in that regard, even if their stories are totally different.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 12:48:03 AM »
Sure, the many DT fans who love to soak in any and all knowledge about the band and their history would love to hear more from Moore, but from a humanistic standpoint, what he has done is actually very classy.  He is taking the high road by not letting himself be drawn into any of the drama that would surely come from any band-related comment he would make that wasn't positive.

By keeping silent, combined with his presence and writing on two of the band's most popular records to date, he is almost a mysterious persona, one who has the quiet genius reputation, fair or not.  He is similar to Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd in that regard, even if their stories are totally different.

Personally, I think it makes him seem a tad arrogant, for lack of a better term. I mean, I'm not saying he has to live in the past and every 5 minutes say, "I miss DT" or something like that. But to just completely clam up and for all intents and purposes, deny that he was ever in the band, which is what it almost seems like, then it really does seem like he turned his back on the people who adored him. I mean, it just doesn't strike me as mysterious at all, it just strikes me as a bit stuck up. That's just my opinion though.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 12:54:40 AM »
It is absurd to imply or even say that Moore walked out on the fans or the band; I am pretty sure no one ever signs a lifetime contract with a band.  Bands see members leave all of the time, but it doesn't mean those guys walked out on the band or the fans.  That has always been a silly assertion.  It is even sillier to suggest that the band stayed together for the fans; they stayed together to make music. 

Indeed, saying that KM walked out on the fans would be like saying MP did and for the record I don't think either is true.


Personally, I think it makes him seem a tad arrogant, for lack of a better term.

I think its kind of the opposite of arrogant.  He posted a few pictures last year when he got his keys stuck in his car and I think he drives a Chevy Impala.  He doesn't clamor for attention or ask for praise.

Sure he is a bit mysterious but its his life so he can act how he wants. 

One weird tidbit is that I was traveling through the west last summer and it turned out he had gone to the site of the Wounded Knee massacre about a week before I was there.  The cemetery is small so had we been there at the same time, I certainly would have seen him.  It is odd to think I was a week away from encountering one of the former members of my favorite band in the most impoverished area in the country.

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 12:58:39 AM »
Sure, the many DT fans who love to soak in any and all knowledge about the band and their history would love to hear more from Moore, but from a humanistic standpoint, what he has done is actually very classy.  He is taking the high road by not letting himself be drawn into any of the drama that would surely come from any band-related comment he would make that wasn't positive.

By keeping silent, combined with his presence and writing on two of the band's most popular records to date, he is almost a mysterious persona, one who has the quiet genius reputation, fair or not.  He is similar to Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd in that regard, even if their stories are totally different.
Personally, I think it makes him seem a tad arrogant, for lack of a better term. I mean, I'm not saying he has to live in the past and every 5 minutes say, "I miss DT" or something like that. But to just completely clam up and for all intents and purposes, deny that he was ever in the band, which is what it almost seems like, then it really does seem like he turned his back on the people who adored him. I mean, it just doesn't strike me as mysterious at all, it just strikes me as a bit stuck up. That's just my opinion though.
Kevin isn't a nostalgic person; I remember when he was asked why he didn't agree to appear at the LSFNY show he said he doesn't find the idea of flying to some city just to play a song he wrote in 1994 very rewarding and it wouldn't make him more creative or anything. It certainly would do him no harm if he acknowledged DT, but he doesn't want to and I respect that.

E: also, what Madman Shepherd said

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 01:02:04 AM »
Kevin isn't a nostalgic person; I remember when he was asked why he didn't agree to appear at the LSFNY show he said he doesn't find the idea of flying to some city just to play a song he wrote in 1994 very rewarding and it wouldn't make him more creative or anything.

Well, that's one instance. Did he ever mention why he didn't contribute to Lifting Shadows?
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Offline wolven74

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2013, 01:02:43 AM »
Sure, the many DT fans who love to soak in any and all knowledge about the band and their history would love to hear more from Moore, but from a humanistic standpoint, what he has done is actually very classy.  He is taking the high road by not letting himself be drawn into any of the drama that would surely come from any band-related comment he would make that wasn't positive.

By keeping silent, combined with his presence and writing on two of the band's most popular records to date, he is almost a mysterious persona, one who has the quiet genius reputation, fair or not.  He is similar to Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd in that regard, even if their stories are totally different.

Personally, I think it makes him seem a tad arrogant, for lack of a better term. I mean, I'm not saying he has to live in the past and every 5 minutes say, "I miss DT" or something like that. But to just completely clam up and for all intents and purposes, deny that he was ever in the band, which is what it almost seems like, then it really does seem like he turned his back on the people who adored him. I mean, it just doesn't strike me as mysterious at all, it just strikes me as a bit stuck up. That's just my opinion though.
Kevin isn't a nostalgic person; I remember when he was asked why he didn't agree to appear at the LSFNY show he said he doesn't find the idea of flying to some city just to play a song he wrote in 1994 very rewarding and it wouldn't make him more creative or anything.
This is kinda sad. How can a guy be a musician, write great music, then be all emo about having to play it on a tour?
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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2013, 01:02:49 AM »
Sure, the many DT fans who love to soak in any and all knowledge about the band and their history would love to hear more from Moore, but from a humanistic standpoint, what he has done is actually very classy.  He is taking the high road by not letting himself be drawn into any of the drama that would surely come from any band-related comment he would make that wasn't positive.

By keeping silent, combined with his presence and writing on two of the band's most popular records to date, he is almost a mysterious persona, one who has the quiet genius reputation, fair or not.  He is similar to Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd in that regard, even if their stories are totally different.

Personally, I think it makes him seem a tad arrogant, for lack of a better term. I mean, I'm not saying he has to live in the past and every 5 minutes say, "I miss DT" or something like that. But to just completely clam up and for all intents and purposes, deny that he was ever in the band, which is what it almost seems like, then it really does seem like he turned his back on the people who adored him. I mean, it just doesn't strike me as mysterious at all, it just strikes me as a bit stuck up. That's just my opinion though.
Kevin isn't a nostalgic person; I remember when he was asked why he didn't agree to appear at the LSFNY show he said he doesn't find the idea of flying to some city just to play a song he wrote in 1994 very rewarding and it wouldn't make him more creative or anything.

You'd think pleasing the fans who got you to where you are today would be reward enough.
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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2013, 01:05:43 AM »
Many of the points MP made out of his observation were fair, but I can't help to notice how rooted the notion of conflict was the logical process of elaborating said data. The fans were doubting their future? They would have done the same had any other founding member left the band. The aura of mistery charged Kevin in the following years with a reputationof genius that went probably beyond his actual merits? That in no way affects the perception of the band in the minds of rational fans.

To a certain extent I must admit that my logical process is similar to his, which is why I perfectly understand where he is coming from. The premises are rooted in reality, the conclusions coated with negativity and conflict. It's sad that it had to be that way, because as you can read we are talking about two musicians who respected each other and had a working chemistry that allowed them to co-exist and thrive in the production of at least one of the best albums of the genre.
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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 01:10:37 AM »
This is kinda sad. How can a guy be a musician, write great music, then be all emo about having to play it on a tour?
You'd think pleasing the fans who got you to where you are today would be reward enough.
His lack of nostalgia isn't only related to DT: he's quite critical of the first 2 Chroma Key albums and at the show he played in 2007 there was only one song from the second one in the setlist and the rest of the material was from the latest release, with the exception of two OSI songs. He just seems like a person who prefers to look back as little as possible and wants to move on from the past. Of course it's sad for the DT fans who wish he could acknowledge them and make a reunion appearance, but you can't really change your nature.

Offline gm5k

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 01:16:23 AM »
Many of the points MP made out of his observation were fair, but I can't help to notice how rooted the notion of conflict was the logical process of elaborating said data.

Tried to read this sentence several times, but...um...what?

Love what you said at the end of that post, though  :tup

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2013, 01:20:19 AM »
His lack of nostalgia isn't only related to DT: he's quite critical of the first 2 Chroma Key albums and at the show he played in 2007 there was only one song from the second one in the setlist and the rest of the material was from the latest release, with the exception of two OSI songs. He just seems like a person who prefers to look back as little as possible and wants to move on from the past. Of course it's sad for the DT fans who wish he could acknowledge them and make a reunion appearance, but you can't really change your nature.

Well, I understand that he's his own person with his own personality, but personally, it just seems kind of disrespectful to his own history and where he came from. He's a great musician, but there are plenty of great musicians, singers, actors, etc. out there, whose difficult personalities can make them seem like somewhat unpleasant people to be around. It is what it is, but I won't paint them as some mysterious human beings with tremendous appeal just for their aversions.
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Offline wasteland

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2013, 01:22:30 AM »
I'm sorry, the point was not clear. He stored correct observational data, but he elaborated them with a too heavy reliance on the category of conflict. He saw conflictual situations where there were none, or just very mild ones.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 01:25:44 AM »
I'm sorry, the point was not clear. He stored correct observational data, but he elaborated them with a too heavy reliance on the category of conflict. He saw conflictual situations where there were none, or just very mild ones.

Oh, you mean like DTF? :P
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline gm5k

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 01:28:08 AM »
I'm sorry, the point was not clear. He stored correct observational data, but he elaborated them with a too heavy reliance on the category of conflict. He saw conflictual situations where there were none, or just very mild ones.

My fault.  I had just gotten what you said right before you posted.  Just wasn't thinking critically enough   :P  It does make a lot of sense.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 01:28:37 AM »
I'm sorry, the point was not clear. He stored correct observational data, but he elaborated them with a too heavy reliance on the category of conflict. He saw conflictual situations where there were none, or just very mild ones.

Oh, you mean like DTF? :P

Sort of, but one person =/= one community :lol
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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 02:29:07 AM »
Not the MP vs KM argument again. It's always the same. MP and KM both have very different personalities, on opposite ends of a spectrum. Neither is more right or more wrong, but the discussions here inevitably end up with lots of people having to take a side.

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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 03:02:46 AM »
(Milena, I know you have all the interviews so you can post the direct KM quotes :lol)
*deep sigh* yeah, I just dug into my interviews.

It seems to me that Mike is right about one thing...leaving the band is one thing...but refusing to have anything to do with it whatsoever (when he seemed happy to play the same style of music for people like Jim Matheos) takes it to a level that is a bit more personal.   I think he had a problem with personalities within the band that he doesn't want to vent personally or publicly.    He just avoids the confrontation by staying away.    It might be Mike...but heck, it may have been John or James...but in any event, it does seem to be more personal than just a musical style change.
I think it's just that him and Jim are naturally completely compatible songwriting partners. There's a non-commital relationship between them, but it keeps them going back to each other because it just works. They're totally independent together, since they can split all the duties between them, including producing; all they need is a drummer and someone to offer tips on how to produce the drums, and an album quickly comes together. When you think about how long Kevin hasn't put a Chroma Key album out, and how he essentially writes music as a pure form of personal expression, it's a pretty big thing that he's comfortable to rely on albums he writes with someone else as means of getting stuff out of his system; but that doesn't mean he didn't have a good personal connection with members of DT, it just means him and Jim get along that well. Especially musically:
"-What sorts of dynamics do you and Matheos have that keeps the partnership going strong?

We have different tastes; there’s a conflict because of that, but it’s not a personality conflict. It’s a musical conflict where we want different things to happen and have to work it musically. That’s pretty much the only thing that makes OSI relatively original. If it was just one way or the other, like the singer-songwriter stuff, electronic music or progressive metal, there’s a lot of people doing those things already. We managed to work with each other. We won’t reject ideas so much as change them. The worst thing that we would do is that if I don’t answer Jim’s email within a day or so, he sort of gets the idea that I’m trying to think of a nice way to say that we should try something else.

-Do you feel that you work better in that environment, where two heads are butting against each other?

No, I don’t think I do (laughs), but it’s not a personality thing. It’s just two genres butting against each other, but I like playing progressive music in the way that I’m allowed to. We don’t really butt heads at all; we get along pretty well."

"BW&BK: Do you find it difficult to reconcile the very different worlds of electronic music and prog metal?

KM: “Yeah, but I find it difficult to just write any kind of music. At least this gives me a few starting points. It’s easier, to me, than just writing progressive music or just writing electronic music. There’s people who do that better. Working with the two genres, they’re different enough from each other – almost natural enemies – that it keeps it interesting. It doesn’t feel like being in conquered territory, it feels like there’s still room to explore. There’s always conflicts between the two writing elements that keeps it interesting.”

BW&BK: Like you’re saying, there’s a real tension between the two styles… there’s the sparseness of electronic music and the non-sparseness of progressive music.

KM: “That conflict is what keeps it interesting, those identifying elements of prog and electronic music.”"

Well...remember that from the sounds of things, Mike and Kev had almost zero interaction during the OSI project. By my recollection, the Set the Controls cover came from the only day they actually spent together in the studio. I think Jim was the guy who got the two together...
"CL: So, when he sent it to you to put on the keyboards, was it, he already was thinking of it as a project with Mike? He had already abandoned the Fates warning album idea?
KM: Yeah. It's a little fuzzy area there about when he decided that Mike was going to do it, because I think he was worried about asking Mike to invite me into the project. He was worried about how Mike was going to feel about that. And then he was worried about how I would feel about working with Mike. So I don't know exactly what happened still. He mentioned Mike as an after thought. After he told me about the project and did I want to work on the project, and I was like, "yeah, let's do something together." He's like, "well this is who I have in mind for a drummer?"
CL: So he basically had both you guys lined up without telling each other?
KM: Yeah. There was something a little bit strange with that. And I was like, "yeah, that'll be fine."
CL: Were you guys not on good terms after you left the band?
KM: It wasn't like bad terms, we just weren't in touch."

"CL: No interesting anecdotes from the studio?
KM: Interesting anecdotes? No, I think one thing that Mike was talking about was that it was different for him because he had to take direction: just taking input. I was talking to him about what I heard as far as drum parts when we were recording in the studio. You know, "try this, try this?" And we actually tried it, not really tried, but recorded different parts, different drum parts for the same section of a song so I'd have something to choose from later on. A lot of the stuff I wanted him to do was very simple, without the triplet fills in between each beat. I think that day was sort of tense, because he's not used to working like that. He's used to just playing the stroke once, the way he wants to. He said that day was sort of hard, but he was happy. He even said that day, at the end of the day, that he realized that the record was going to be completely different. It was something new for him and he was excited about it, it was just very frustrating."

"-How did your involvement in OSI come about? I know you've grown out of prog-metal, and that led to your departure from Dream Theater in 1994.

After I left Dream Theater I still did a couple of project with Fates Warning. So, I stayed in touch with Jim (Matheos) more or less. Jim always gives me advice. He gives me business advice, like how to do stuff like music publishing. Whenever I have a question about stuff like that I always get in touch with him. One of these times he started telling me about this new project he was working on, and he asked if I'd be interested in working on it. I said sure. He didn't tell me he was already planning on doing it with Mike (Portnoy, Dream Theater). Jim said something like, "I have a drummer in mind, I don't know if you're going to be interested." (laughs) That's how it started, and then he sent me stuff down to Costa Rica. I played with it a little bit, and then sent it back to him and that was "OSI". That was the first song we really worked on.

-Was it difficult working with Mike again, because so many years had elapsed?

Yeah, it was impossible (laughs). I think it was difficult for Mike. He's been saying that he had a hard time taking direction on the drums, because I don't think that's what goes on in Dream Theater anymore. I think everyone just plays their own parts. So he said he had some difficulty taking direction from me. I sort of sensed that when we were in the studio, but Mike and I were only together for about a week working on his drum parts. It wasn't that dramatic or anything. It was really a lot of fun to work the way we did, because he comes up with parts that I would never be able to even think of. Having his permission to work with it after he recorded it, y'know chopping it up digitally and reversing stuff, that was also a lot of fun."

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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 03:37:02 AM »
About the original question that started this topic - whether there's anything more in-depth in the commentary - I found a radio interview with Mike that pretty much settled why Mike was unhappy with the whole OSI thing, besides the whole "Kevin is not fun to work with"-thing. Now, I don't have an access to a computer with speakers or headphones right now, so I can't find it nor transcribe it, but I can tell with about 90% accuracy that (using info from that and other inties): Mike wanted to work on a prog metal project with Jim for years, and by the time they did it, it turned into a project where Kevin and Jim were the "main players" and Mike had to take creative direction. From Kevin mainly, since he was the one working with the drum parts. Not to mention that the music took a left turn because of Kevin's involvement. I'll find that one later today.

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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2013, 04:44:01 AM »
Mora,

Excellent KM interview excerpts.  Thanks for sharing!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:26:37 PM by Madman Shepherd »

Offline snapple

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 05:06:25 AM »
Does he answer the question of..















































WHO IS THE BEST THEM  :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal

Offline aprilethereal

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2013, 06:07:57 AM »
Really interesting thread :tup

And Raise The Kniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiife is an amazing song, probably in my Top 20.

Offline Mebert78

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2013, 08:36:45 AM »
Great interview excerpts, Milena.  I don't think I've read some of those comments.  MP's public bashing of KM in those interviews and in the autobiography, and in the lyrics for "Raising the Knife," were unnecessary and ugly, in my opinion -- especially because KM has remained so politely silent through the years and given politically-correct answers about MP's work with OSI.  On a separate note, I met MP at a couple of autograph signings in 2011 and 2012 and identified myself as a "big KM fan," curious to see what his reaction would be.  I expected he would roll his eyes or give a sarcastic answer, but to my surprise he said KM is "very talented," etc.  That made me happy.   But I still think it's a shame he chose to go that mudslinging route in this interview, and even more of a shame that his cringe-worthy comments will live forever in the DT autobiography.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 10:00:38 PM by Mebert78 »
An unofficial online community for fans of keyboardist Kevin Moore (ex-Dream Theater, Chroma Key, OSI):


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2013, 09:00:09 AM »
Sure, the many DT fans who love to soak in any and all knowledge about the band and their history would love to hear more from Moore, but from a humanistic standpoint, what he has done is actually very classy.  He is taking the high road by not letting himself be drawn into any of the drama that would surely come from any band-related comment he would make that wasn't positive.

By keeping silent, combined with his presence and writing on two of the band's most popular records to date, he is almost a mysterious persona, one who has the quiet genius reputation, fair or not.  He is similar to Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd in that regard, even if their stories are totally different.

Personally, I think it makes him seem a tad arrogant, for lack of a better term. I mean, I'm not saying he has to live in the past and every 5 minutes say, "I miss DT" or something like that. But to just completely clam up and for all intents and purposes, deny that he was ever in the band, which is what it almost seems like, then it really does seem like he turned his back on the people who adored him. I mean, it just doesn't strike me as mysterious at all, it just strikes me as a bit stuck up. That's just my opinion though.

When has he ever denied that he was in the band?  Not wanting to be a part of something from your past is not denying you were a part of it.  That silly assertion is part of the problem in regards to DT fans who feel that Moore owes them and the band something.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2013, 09:26:46 AM »
He's been saying that he had a hard time taking direction on the drums, because I don't think that's what goes on in Dream Theater anymore. I think everyone just plays their own parts.

Now that's an interesting insight into the writing process of DT, past and present.
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Offline phentalmyst

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2013, 09:31:28 AM »
0:45, kevin acknowledges his DT past....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DgFEQ1Jw8

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Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Portnoy's comments on Kevin Moore (from Score commentary)
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 09:42:25 AM »
When he left DT, Kevin issued a very polite press release and that was it.  He's a very quiet and private person and his reasons for declining the concerts and the autobiography are unknown to us.  So, sure I can be a little disappointed but that's all, because we don't know the reasons.  Meanwhile, MP's public bashing of KM in those interviews and in the autobiography, and in the lyrics for "Raising the Knife," were unnecessary and ugly, in my opinion -- especially because KM has remained so politely silent through the years and given politically-correct answers about MP's work with OSI.
This pretty much sums up everything I had to say.
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