The Metallica Thread v. Reloaded

[wolfking]

I think when Helloween were doing the Keeper albums, I think remember reading Kai recorded everything for his songs and Weiki everything for his, bar the credited solos.  I could be way off though.

It probably happens a lot more than what you think.

[mikeyd23]

Yeah, different bands record guitars in different ways depending on the sound they are going for. For that run of "classic" Metallica albums, Het wanted a wall of super tight rhythm guitars. So the best option was for him to just layer himself playing those parts multiple times, it helps that Het is incredibly tight and accurate as a rhythm player.

In contrast, the Loads were about chasing down a different sound, a looser, more hard rock sound. Having a wall of super-precise heavy guitar was not a requirement, so Kirk played rhythm along with Het, sometimes matching his part, sometimes not matching.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, different bands record guitars in different ways depending on the sound they are going for. For that run of "classic" Metallica albums, Het wanted a wall of super tight rhythm guitars. So the best option was for him to just layer himself playing those parts multiple times, it helps that Het is incredibly tight and accurate as a rhythm player.

In contrast, the Loads were about chasing down a different sound, a looser, more hard rock sound. Having a wall of super-precise heavy guitar was not a requirement, so Kirk played rhythm along with Het, sometimes matching his part, sometimes not matching.

There's less doubling, slower tempos, and as you said, it's just a part of that looser rock sound to have two more distinctive guitars playing, rather than the super tight, uptempo doubling of the thrash era. They're such different styles that the different approach made sense. There's no right or wrong way for a band to do it.
Having seen Some Kind of Monster, I'm glad Kirk didn't bother with rhythm on the earlier stuff.

[Stadler]

I'll readily admit to having no idea how music production works. But would I be off-base in saying that a lot of bands don't do this? To use an obviously comparable band to Metallica, Dave Mustaine writes a lot of the material in Megadeth, but I don't think he plays the second guitarist's rhythm parts in the studio? Or maybe he does and I'm just completely clueless—as I said, I'll readily admit to having no idea what I'm talking about.

This happens a lot.   The Stones do this a lot, though it depends on the song; for some of them - I'm going to say Beast of Burden, but I could be wrong - it's the very interplay between Wood and Richards that makes the song, so they record it together.  But there are many many songs especially from the 70's, that are all Keith.    Kiss:  most of the recordings from Destroyer on are almost all Paul (or Gene; he plays rhythm on a lot of his songs).   

I think where it happens the most is where the rhythm guitar player is also the singer.   You sometimes need the lead guy to "flesh out" the sound while the rhythm guy is singing.  But in the studio - when you're likely singing later to a track - you can have the rhythm guy do both.

One band I don't know about, but would love to, is AC/DC.    I'd be curious if Mal does all the rhythm on record.

[BlobVanDam]

One band I don't know about, but would love to, is AC/DC.    I'd be curious if Mal does all the rhythm on record.

I don't really have any doubts about ACDC. Malcolm is such a tight and hard (I didn't mean that to sound so sexual) rhythm player, part of one of the best rhythm sections in all of rock, and a main songwriter. You can hear the little differences in nuances even when they're doubling riffs. Angus still has the subtle stylistic bends on single note riffs, and has vibrato on held chords, whereas Malcolm is very even in dynamics and straight up, a tighter picking attack, in a way that is different to what Angus would sound like if he were trying to play it straight up.
I do wonder on Rock or Bust if Angus recorded all guitars though.

[sneakyblueberry]

^ all of that.  Mal is the godfather of tight rhythm guitar.

[Progmetty]

Listening to remastered Creeping Death, a bit disappointed. I've been wanting this for KEA, RTL, MOP & AJFA since the late 90's, I don't blame the band though, they were probably too focused on not making a loudness war screw up. I wanted this to sound like the Megadeth remasters of the 80's albums which are my absolute favorite remaster of anything, oh well.

[Progmetty]

Creeping Death live premiere is also included in this sampler, man it's pretty consistent how he fucks up the song's solo since the live premiere
Love the Hammster though.

[Zook]

So I picked up the remastered version of Ride The Lightning yesterday because why the hell not? It's in my top 5 favorite albums of all time and it was $5.99.

Can't say I regret buying it, but there really is very little difference.

Take a look:


Makes it kind of pointless to remaster it in the first place. Even the booklet is 98% the same.

[Bolsters]

It's not much better, but it is better. At least it doesn't look like DM.

[Zook]

It really doesn't sound different to me, but I've seen many a time people making the argument that leveling a track in the remastering process kills the dynamics of the song. I can see those dynamics are gone, but again, it doesn't really sound all that different. Maybe that's a good thing since a lot of remasters do turn it up to 11 and cause really bad clipping.

[BlobVanDam]

The remastered version doesn't sound too different with more compression, as the original wasn't the most crystal clear recording to begin with. I personally prefer the original version as it sounds more dynamic, but the remaster doesn't sound bad.

[Progmetty]

Zook where did you find it for $5.99?

[Zook]

Zook where did you find it for $5.99?

Best Buy

It'll be in a cardboard gatefold. They have the original at $5.99 as well.

[Kotowboy]

Metallica are streaming an in-store tonight for Record Store Day.

I guarantee only staples and not even a hint of anything new.

Even though Lars has said the album is close to completion and "should be done this spring".

[pogoowner]

Metallica are streaming an in-store tonight for Record Store Day.

I guarantee only staples and not even a hint of anything new.

Even though Lars has said the album is close to completion and "should be done this spring".

I'm watching now. A friend of mine is there, actually. I wish Kirk could still play.

[lonestar]

I've spent so much fucking money at that store, I should've been given a front row seat.



Place is hella sweet actually, they have a massive metal section, divided up into sub-genres. And yes, they even have a prog metal section.

[BlobVanDam]

I've spent so much fucking money at that store, I should've been given a front row seat.



Place is hella sweet actually, they have a massive metal section, divided up into sub-genres. And yes, they even have a prog metal section.

It must be a massive section if they're willing to waste precious space on prog.

I'll have to check out the video of their performance later. Can you imagine seeing a Metallica show like that? Damn!

[Kotowboy]

Why do people always include Kill Em All with " The classic " albums ?

It's got good tracks but it's nowhere near as consistent as Ride or Master.

Conversely people always leave out The Black Album when it's just as good as the first 4 albums. If not better ( Kill Em All definitely ).

[Enigmachine]

Why do people always include Kill Em All with " The classic " albums ?

It's got good tracks but it's nowhere near as consistent as Ride or Master.

Conversely people always leave out The Black Album when it's just as good as the first 4 albums. If not better ( Kill Em All definitely ).

Well, it's got the classic line-up with Cliff and the album is actually pretty consistent IMO apart from the bass solo. Also historically very important, it was the first Thrash Metal album while TBA wasn't anywhere near as groundbreaking. I imagine that KEA would have a far greater effect on someone from 1983 than TBA would have on someone from 1991, if both were already familiar with contemporary metal. I may actually agree with you that TBA might be better, though.

[sneakyblueberry]

*snip*
I'll readily admit to having no idea how music production works. But would I be off-base in saying that a lot of bands don't do this? To use an obviously comparable band to Metallica, Dave Mustaine writes a lot of the material in Megadeth, but I don't think he plays the second guitarist's rhythm parts in the studio? Or maybe he does and I'm just completely clueless—as I said, I'll readily admit to having no idea what I'm talking about.

I think Mustaine does the same thing, playing all the rhythm parts.  And I think for both Het and Mustaine, it's an ego thing.  They both know they can't play lead as good as their second guitarists, so they put a lot of stake into being 'awesome tight rhythm guitarists' as though it has the same level of merit as being able to play lead like Marty Friedman or 80s Kirk.

[TheCountOfNYC]

*snip*
I'll readily admit to having no idea how music production works. But would I be off-base in saying that a lot of bands don't do this? To use an obviously comparable band to Metallica, Dave Mustaine writes a lot of the material in Megadeth, but I don't think he plays the second guitarist's rhythm parts in the studio? Or maybe he does and I'm just completely clueless—as I said, I'll readily admit to having no idea what I'm talking about.

I think Mustaine does the same thing, playing all the rhythm parts.  And I think for both Het and Mustaine, it's an ego thing.  They both know they can't play lead as good as their second guitarists, so they put a lot of stake into being 'awesome tight rhythm guitarists' as though it has the same level of merit as being able to play lead like Marty Friedman or 80s Kirk.

At this point in time, James is miles ahead of Kirk as a guitar player. He always recorded the rhythm parts because nobody in metal is better at it. The rhythm guitars in the verses of Enter Sandman are tracked twelve times but it sounds like one really heavy guitar because his rhythm playing is so tight that he can play the songs consistently every time. Why have someone due something that you can do a million times better? Him playing all rhythm parts simply makes the songs sound better on the record.

[Outcrier]

The rhythm guitars in the verses of Enter Sandman are tracked twelve times

 

[BlobVanDam]

Why do people always include Kill Em All with " The classic " albums ?

It's got good tracks but it's nowhere near as consistent as Ride or Master.

Conversely people always leave out The Black Album when it's just as good as the first 4 albums. If not better ( Kill Em All definitely ).

I'd put it way ahead of RTL as an album. Regardless, it's great, and it's part of their thrash era.
But hey, I'd put TBA ahead of all of them, so I'm with you on that one.

[sneakyblueberry]

*snip*
I'll readily admit to having no idea how music production works. But would I be off-base in saying that a lot of bands don't do this? To use an obviously comparable band to Metallica, Dave Mustaine writes a lot of the material in Megadeth, but I don't think he plays the second guitarist's rhythm parts in the studio? Or maybe he does and I'm just completely clueless—as I said, I'll readily admit to having no idea what I'm talking about.

I think Mustaine does the same thing, playing all the rhythm parts.  And I think for both Het and Mustaine, it's an ego thing.  They both know they can't play lead as good as their second guitarists, so they put a lot of stake into being 'awesome tight rhythm guitarists' as though it has the same level of merit as being able to play lead like Marty Friedman or 80s Kirk.

At this point in time, James is miles ahead of Kirk as a guitar player. He always recorded the rhythm parts because nobody in metal is better at it. The rhythm guitars in the verses of Enter Sandman are tracked twelve times but it sounds like one really heavy guitar because his rhythm playing is so tight that he can play the songs consistently every time. Why have someone due something that you can do a million times better? Him playing all rhythm parts simply makes the songs sound better on the record.

Yep, totally agree.  I'm just pointing out the idea that for those guys, they put a lot of stock into their rhythm guitar playing - and I think a lot of it has to do with their perceived 'shred' deficit.  At least in the early days.  I think they're both way more comfortable with their respective roles now. 

Are they really tracked twelve times?  I seem to remember an interview with James where he says the AJFA recording taught them that "recording a rhythm part twelve (or so) times doesn't make it heavier".

[Tomislav95]

I checked few songs off that performance on Record store day and James sounds terrific. He hit some really high notes there.

[sneakyblueberry]

I checked few songs off that performance on Record store day and James sounds terrific. He hit some really high notes there.

You're right!  And Kirk really is horrribleeeeee.

[Onno]

Yeah. I thought Lars was decent, James was very good, Kirk was shite and Robert was good as always.

[TheCountOfNYC]

*snip*
I'll readily admit to having no idea how music production works. But would I be off-base in saying that a lot of bands don't do this? To use an obviously comparable band to Metallica, Dave Mustaine writes a lot of the material in Megadeth, but I don't think he plays the second guitarist's rhythm parts in the studio? Or maybe he does and I'm just completely clueless—as I said, I'll readily admit to having no idea what I'm talking about.

I think Mustaine does the same thing, playing all the rhythm parts.  And I think for both Het and Mustaine, it's an ego thing.  They both know they can't play lead as good as their second guitarists, so they put a lot of stake into being 'awesome tight rhythm guitarists' as though it has the same level of merit as being able to play lead like Marty Friedman or 80s Kirk.

At this point in time, James is miles ahead of Kirk as a guitar player. He always recorded the rhythm parts because nobody in metal is better at it. The rhythm guitars in the verses of Enter Sandman are tracked twelve times but it sounds like one really heavy guitar because his rhythm playing is so tight that he can play the songs consistently every time. Why have someone due something that you can do a million times better? Him playing all rhythm parts simply makes the songs sound better on the record.

Yep, totally agree.  I'm just pointing out the idea that for those guys, they put a lot of stock into their rhythm guitar playing - and I think a lot of it has to do with their perceived 'shred' deficit.  At least in the early days.  I think they're both way more comfortable with their respective roles now. 

Are they really tracked twelve times?  I seem to remember an interview with James where he says the AJFA recording taught them that "recording a rhythm part twelve (or so) times doesn't make it heavier".

Bob Rock wanted the guitars in the verses to sound like a wall of sound (in a good way) so to achieve that, they tracked six guitars in the left channel and six in the right.

[mikeyd23]

I never heard twelve actual guitar tracks (meaning James played the same part twelve times and over dubbed each track on top of one another), on the classic album behind the scenes thing, James talks about how he layered three guitar tracks for the heavy rhythm, left, right, and the thickener. Now, when he recorded those parts, he was played out of multiple amps and cabs, but there's a big difference. There could have easily been 4 mics on 4 different cabs grabbing sound, then being comped into one track on the board, thus creating the "left" guitar part. If James then did that same thing for the right, and the thickener, that would totally 12 mic inputs I guess, but once again, that's different.

[Adami]

I seem to remember James saying that pre-black album, they did that 3 track deal, left, right, center but then changed it up for the black album.

[425]

Why do people always include Kill Em All with " The classic " albums ?

It's got good tracks but it's nowhere near as consistent as Ride or Master.

Conversely people always leave out The Black Album when it's just as good as the first 4 albums. If not better ( Kill Em All definitely ).

Agreed 100%. I don't particularly care much for KEA. Maybe it's just that it's such an immature album lyrically, but I almost never listen to it. Musically it's decent, but RTL was an impressive step up IMO. And The Black Album is definitely superior to KEA. As is DM. And Load probably is, too.

[Tomislav95]

Why do people always include Kill Em All with " The classic " albums ?

It's got good tracks but it's nowhere near as consistent as Ride or Master.

Conversely people always leave out The Black Album when it's just as good as the first 4 albums. If not better ( Kill Em All definitely ).

Agreed 100%. I don't particularly care much for KEA. Maybe it's just that it's such an immature album lyrically, but I almost never listen to it. Musically it's decent, but RTL was an impressive step up IMO. And The Black Album is definitely superior to KEA. As is DM. And Load probably is, too.

Are you fan of old school thrash?

[Adami]

I assume because it has a good amount of classic songs.

Seek and Destroy
The Four Horsemen
Whiplash

And to a lesser extent
Motorbreath
Jump in the Fire
No Remorse

That's at least three classic songs and often live staples.

[Outcrier]

I never heard twelve actual guitar tracks (meaning James played the same part twelve times and over dubbed each track on top of one another), on the classic album behind the scenes thing, James talks about how he layered three guitar tracks for the heavy rhythm, left, right, and the thickener.

That's what i read too.