Is it appropriate...

[Dark Castle]

If I'm going to get a warning about my chest hair, then I feel like women should be warned for displaying the tatas, since like someone said earlier, it's a slippery slope down sexual harassment for even looking if they're offended.

[sueño]

Quote from: Zook on July 16, 2013, 05:40:46 PM
If she's wearing something that's making her tits burst out, she's doing it on purpose because she wants the attention.

Mora said:
Nope, it's probably about liking how she looks like in it. Not even 10% of what women do with their appearance is about attracting male attention.

Very true.  Hence, my earlier comment about most not having a man at home to comment on their appearance.  If that's the case, however, it's still the responsibility of the woman to step outside of what SHE thinks is merely attractive and consider her effect.  If she cares about the possible response she may get.

With all due respect Milena ... As a chick, you'll NEVER understand most men's obsession with hooters. We behave around them the way you would if both Gildenlow brothers just rang your doorbell one day.

This is also true.   

[Podaar]

Nope, it's probably about liking how she looks like in it. Not even 10% of what women do with their appearance is about attracting male attention.

This. In my experience, 50*cough*some-odd-years, women dress with the intention of making them look good to other women! They just don't give a shit what the men think. Probably because they realize men will gawk no matter what they wear 

Makeup also seems to be an obscure competition.

[sueño]

If I'm going to get a warning about my chest hair, then I feel like women should be warned for displaying the tatas, since like someone said earlier, it's a slippery slope down sexual harassment for even looking if they're offended.

You've been warned about that??   

[Podaar]

If I'm going to get a warning about my chest hair, then I feel like women should be warned for displaying the tatas, since like someone said earlier, it's a slippery slope down sexual harassment for even looking if they're offended.

You've been warned about that??   

It was probably grossing someone out. 

[MoraWintersoul]

With all due respect Milena ... As a chick, you'll NEVER understand most men's obsession with hooters. We behave around them the way you would if both Gildenlow brothers just rang your doorbell one day.

Yeah, and that's your problem, not the problem of the woman. I understand this view may be a bit weird for people to swallow but you really can't win. You have schools banning girls from wearing tank tops in 100 degree weather because it's "distracting the boys", what, is everyone around me gonna get a raging boner if they see my shoulder? The line with oversexualizing normal body parts in our society must be drawn somewhere, and maybe that includes letting the lady in the office who likes having her tits bursting out of her shirt to wear whatever the fuck she wants because she's not really hurting anyone. Maybe it doesn't.

If I'm going to get a warning about my chest hair, then I feel like women should be warned for displaying the tatas, since like someone said earlier, it's a slippery slope down sexual harassment for even looking if they're offended.

Is it really that easy and common to sue for sexual harassment? And win the case without any consequences? Surely it's happened a lot that the woman who sued had her chances of promotion/progress nullified, and had every sort of bad word put out against her. There's a stigma when you sue anyone, and when you get sex into the mix half of the people will think she's some whore who "lead someone on". At least that happens a lot here.

If I'm going to get a warning about my chest hair, then I feel like women should be warned for displaying the tatas, since like someone said earlier, it's a slippery slope down sexual harassment for even looking if they're offended.

You've been warned about that??   

It was probably grossing someone out. 

And that's wrong too, since it's just hair.

[Dark Castle]

It was my boss, saying I'm hairy. They rag on me for any hair pretty much, facial, chest, arm.
It's probably just the job, but literally nobody else bugs me about my chest hair. The ladies have liked it anyways 

[sueño]

Nope, it's probably about liking how she looks like in it. Not even 10% of what women do with their appearance is about attracting male attention.

This. In my experience, 50*cough*some-odd-years, women dress with the intention of making them look good to other women! They just don't give a shit what the men think. Probably because they realize men will gawk no matter what they wear 

Makeup also seems to be an obscure competition.

Therein lies the challenge of anyone counseling them on their appearance.  If it's a man, he's creepy, sexist, harassing.   

If it's a woman, she's just jealous and a hater.   

It takes a certain amount of grace, maturity and humility to take legitimately constructive criticism well.  There's not a lot of that demonstrated, unfortunately. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

With all due respect Milena ... As a chick, you'll NEVER understand most men's obsession with hooters. We behave around them the way you would if both Gildenlow brothers just rang your doorbell one day.

Yeah, and that's your problem, not the problem of the woman.

He never suggested that it was the problem of the woman.  His response was more likely answering to your "It's just boobs, guys" comment.

[MoraWintersoul]

With all due respect Milena ... As a chick, you'll NEVER understand most men's obsession with hooters. We behave around them the way you would if both Gildenlow brothers just rang your doorbell one day.

Yeah, and that's your problem, not the problem of the woman.

He never suggested that it was the problem of the woman.  His response was more likely answering to your "It's just boobs, guys" comment.

It's just the whole attitude in this thread is that women are responsible if what they wear is distracting dudes, and it's being justified because "that's the way men are with boobs". But it's really not our problem that you are that way. I like dudes with nice beards but I'm not going to stop and stare because I don't experience any environment as a sexual playground, and that dude's beard/long hair/nice ass in tight jeans is for him, not for me.

/respectively discontinues posting in the thread after offering a different perspective, since everything past this would be beating a dead horse

[bosk1]

Is it really that easy and common to sue for sexual harassment? 

Yes.  To the point where, sadly, when I see a sexual harassment complaint nowadays, my kneejerk reaction is that it is completely trumped up and didn't happen.  Which is sad, because sometimes it did happen.  But the vast majority are bogus to the point where I have become incredibly skeptical.

And win the case without any consequences?

Again, the answer is "yes."  Unfortunately.  But "winning" or "losing is almost irrelevant.  If you are sued either as an indivdidual or as the employer, the case probably will not get to a trial because it will settle for tens or hendreds of thousands of dollars, and only after you have spent an additional several tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees defending yourself.  And if you are an individual accused of sexual harassment, your career most likely is tainted for good, whether you ultimately "win" or not.

is everyone around me gonna get a raging boner if they see my shoulder? 

Well, I certainly can't speak for everyone around you, but...erm... 

[bosk1]

beating a dead horse

Oh, so now you wanna talk dirty too? 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

[eric42434224]

Exactly MoraWinterSoul.  Guys....STOP fucking this up!  DO NOT ruin this beautiful thing to look at during the work day, that brings us such joy, and that funny feeling where my bathing suit covers.  Show a bit of self control and sneak a quick peek once in a while.  If cleavage affects you so much that you need to fuck it up for the rest of us, you have bigger issues!  They are tits.  Enjoy them like the setting sun or a rainbow.  They are a gift from nature. 
If you mess this up, I will need you to take a big step back... and literally, FUCK YOUR OWN FACE! I don't know what kind of macho bullshit power play you're trying to pull here, but Office Cleavage is every mans territory. So whatever you're thinking, you'd better think again! Otherwise I'm gonna have to head down there and I will rain down in a Godly fucking firestorm upon you! You're gonna have to call the fucking United Nations and get a fucking binding resolution to keep me from fucking destroying you. I'm talking about a scorched earth, motherfucker! I will massacre you! I WILL FUCK YOU UP!

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

 

[Podaar]

It's just the whole attitude in this thread is that women are responsible if what they wear is distracting dudes, and it's being justified because "that's the way men are with boobs". But it's really not our problem that you are that way. *snip*

I agree. Which is why I posted this. https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=38074.msg1619450#msg1619450

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Which is good advice to follow.  Because it's professional.  Not because "ZOMG, BONERS!"  Despite the jokes about it, nobody is truly advocating that it's a woman's problem to dress appropriately because a man can't handle it.

[Dark Castle]

Which is good advice to follow.  Because it's professional.  Not because "ZOMG, BONERS!"

[sueño]

I like dudes with nice beards but I'm not going to stop and stare because I don't experience any environment as a sexual playground, and that dude's beard/long hair/nice ass in tight jeans is for him, not for me.

/respectively discontinues posting in the thread after offering a different perspective, since everything past this would be beating a dead horse

Sorry to see you go, but the above actually confirms one of the many differences between men and women.

Good and respectful men will not act on what they see in these situations.  But they are biologically prone to RE-act (mentally, emotionally...sometimes physically) to what they see -- and it honestly doesn't take much.     Women for the most part do not react that way -- that's not how they are built.

It's not something that's right or wrong, really -- just different.  And something that women should be aware of if they care about the impression they make.  For the most part, older women do know this already.

I will say that it's rarely helpful to regard the opposite sex's reactions to things and say, "well, that's not what I would do/say, etc.".  It's rather like how in the Lonely Heart's thread, there is a feeling that female reactions are more encouraging (or less) than they really are simply because that's what they guy means when THEY do it.

The wise person will consider that their particular perspective on the opposite sex may need fine-tuning.  Of course, that is a LIFE-LONG task...but could be worth it. 

[MoraWintersoul]

I knew I had to see the reply if it's coming from you
 (edit WELL THIS WAS BEFORE SIX NEW REPLIES OBVS, did I hit the DTF rush hour? )
Then it's awesome that people are standing up to sexual discrimination in the office, and also not that awesome that there are false cases, but you also don't know what the life of that woman who sued looks like up close after closing the case, whether it's justified or not. Here she often gets blamed/vilified, and I can't imagine it doesn't happen at all across the pond.

But yeah, the tone in the thread is supposed to be more lighthearted, so:

beating a dead horse

Oh, so now you wanna talk dirty too? 

That's how we roll in this hood

[emtee]

Great topic man. Things they are a changin'. Not so many years ago this would not be tolerated in most workplaces. It's
getting more acceptable every day, even on network and cable news shows. Frankly it's pretty tough sometimes to keep
focused on the task at hand. Do the ladies want it that way? I don't really know any more. Am I supposed to notice? Am
I supposed to pretend I don't notice? It would be so much easier if the boobs were not at work.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Great topic man. Things they are a changin'. Not so many years ago this would not be tolerated in most workplaces. It's
getting more acceptable every day, even on network and cable news shows. Frankly it's pretty tough sometimes to keep
focused on the task at hand. Do the ladies want it that way? I don't really know any more. Am I supposed to notice? Am
I supposed to pretend I don't notice? It would be so much easier if the boobs were not at work.

Then what would be the incentive to go to work?

[bosk1]

Then it's awesome that people are standing up to sexual discrimination in the office, and also not that awesome that there are false cases, but you also don't know what the life of that woman who sued looks like up close after closing the case, whether it's justified or not.

Yeah, I mean the changes in the laws here and the public awareness that took place mainly in the '80s and '90s have gone a long way in reducing workplace harassment.  I mean, it would be naive to think that it is gone.  It does still happen.  But it has been eliminated as much as I think you can reasonably expect it to be eliminated.  But the problem is, the laws are so biased and prone to abuse, and so frequently abused, that I feel things have gone too far.

And as far as knowing what happens to the reporter afterward (I hate using terms like "victim," because some times person is anything but a victim in any real sense of the word; and I hate using "woman" because not all harassees are female), I actually do have a pretty good idea in a lot of cases because (1) if I am working on a harassment case, I am going to be sending discovery to the harassee and taking her deposition at some point, as well as talking to a lot of witnesses who often know her before, during, and after the incidents at issue), and (2) a lot of the companies I represent in these types of cases are long-term clients, so I know what is going on in the workplace even after a case is long over.

But anyway...

[jingle.boy]

If massive amounts of cleavage are acceptable or professional (or at least should be considered ok), why did the cleavage thread get deleted for being considered pornographic?  Just sayin.  If its too inappropriate for DTF, I'd say the same goes for a white collar workplace.

Thread title ... "Is it appropriate?"  My opinion, no.  Not in a business/professional setting.  It's not for the fact that men can't control themselves, it's just not the environment to put them on display in the manner that Gary described. Would it be appropriate for church?  A funeral?  There isn't anything wrong with it, but it's not appropriate for the environment... Especially with the US culture around litigation.

[Chino]

If she's wearing something that's making her tits burst out, she's doing it on purpose because she wants the attention.

Nope, it's probably about liking how she looks like in it. Not even 10% of what women do with their appearance is about attracting male attention.

With all do respect..... bullshit.

[eric42434224]

If she's wearing something that's making her tits burst out, she's doing it on purpose because she wants the attention.

Nope, it's probably about liking how she looks like in it. Not even 10% of what women do with their appearance is about attracting male attention.

With all do respect..... bullshit.

You are both actually correct.  The 90% of effort women put into their appearance (when it comes to clothes/accessories/makeup/hair/etc) IS indeed to impress other women....cause Men dont give a shit about all that stuff.  Guys dont care about clothes, purses, shoes, etc.
But the 10% of the effort that deals with making their tits pop out is most certainly for MEN.  And I thank them for it.

[Orbert]

[Dublagent66]

It's just not really helpful to be "distracted" in a professional environment.

Maybe if you are on the bomb squad diffusing explosives.  If looking at boobs affects your performance at work, you probably have bigger issues.
Stop oppressing workplace cleavage!

This.  However, the part when it becomes inappropriate is when some of these scantily clad babes get upset because guys are looking and it's borderline sexual harrassment on the guy's part?

[Chino]

/thread

[hefdaddy42]

All this coming from someone who's never worn a mini-skirt nor shown more than an inch of cleavage.

No offense, but if that's the case, how can you speak for women that slut it up at work like the one mentioned in the OP?

[Zook]

Ok, there's a girl at work who has an amazing ass. AMAZING. She always wears tight ass pants that define that masterpiece.

I kinda sorta got a tad bit facebook stalkerish and looked at her pics... A lot of them are of her ass!

Now, try and tell me she isn't purposely wearing those tight pants just to show off her ass.

Ass. (EDIT: Not an insult lol)

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

what's her number

[Nel]

No one ever likes it when I show off my ass. 

[sueño]

Ok, there's a girl at work who has an amazing ass. AMAZING. She always wears tight ass pants that define that masterpiece.

I kinda sorta got a tad bit facebook stalkerish and looked at her pics... A lot of them are of her ass!

Now, try and tell me she isn't purposely wearing those tight pants just to show off her ass.

Ass. (EDIT: Not an insult lol)

She is.

Women always want to know how they look in their jeans.  There is a reason.

No one ever asks how they look in their sweaters.   

[Chino]

I love how women think dudes are creeps or pigs for staring at their asses. What do they expect expect when they're packing a donk and wearing yoga pants that say "love" or "pink" on them?