What would you suggest for me

[Tuneman]

Ok there are a billion different ways as mentioned in the other thread to learn the modes.  I am totally lost when it comes to learning how they work.

I started on the CAGED system, and the 3 notes per string method, but I don't know whats best.

Anyways, I want to learn the logic behind the music theory so I can apply that knowledge to improvisation.  That being said, I also see knowing and memorizing the fretboard as a necessity.  For me, what method would you suggest?

[blackwing]

Ok there are a billion different ways as mentioned in the other thread to learn the modes.  I am totally lost when it comes to learning how they work.

I started on the CAGED system, and the 3 notes per string method, but I don't know whats best.

Anyways, I want to learn the logic behind the music theory so I can apply that knowledge to improvisation.  That being said, I also see knowing and memorizing the fretboard as a necessity.  For me, what method would you suggest?

hey tuneman ...
 obviously u've checked out my post on modes ... at www.wildguitar.tk
but that would only give you an idea on how to play the modes ... or rather play all the modes in 3 notes per string pattern up and down the neck

but if you wanna go deeper into theory .. this is how i see it ...
Think of a chord scale in the key of C (we'r gonna stick to a key of C)
it's made up of Cmaj , D min , E min , F Maj , G Maj , A Min , B dim b5

this is the base of all the modes ...
i'm sure u know the names of all the modes and how u assign them to each note and stuff ...

so basically wat i'm tryin to say is ... if u take a D dorian ... it's a min mode ... cuz in the chord scal D was a minor ...
similarly F lydian is a maj mode cuz F was a major in the chord scale ...

or u could also see it as flat this and sharp that method but ... i really don't like that one ...

u can probably fiddle around a lil with this and try to compose somethin

i recommend u take a look at Vinnie moore's 2nd instructional video ...
i really don't know any other good one';s

Peace hope this helped

Blackwing

www.Wildguitar.tk

[antigoon]

https://www.jazzguitar.be/modi.html

[Ultimetalhead]

https://www.jazzguitar.be/modi.html

That.

[Tuneman]

https://www.jazzguitar.be/modi.html

That.

this was awful I didn't learn anything.  I understand they are all the same notes.  Why is the dorian flat in the places where it has 1 half step and ionian has 2, while where it has 2 and the ionian has 1 the dorian isn't sharp?

blackwing - i am in the process of checking your stuff out.  Its a little more comprehensive than that 2 pager though, so I am waiting to respond about it.

[brakkum]

https://www.jazzguitar.be/modi.html

That.

this was awful I didn't learn anything.  I understand they are all the same notes.  Why is the dorian flat in the places where it has 1 half step and ionian has 2, while where it has 2 and the ionian has 1 the dorian isn't sharp?

blackwing - i am in the process of checking your stuff out.  Its a little more comprehensive than that 2 pager though, so I am waiting to respond about it.

sounds like what you need to understand is that each individual mode starts on a different note of the major scale.

Say we have C major

CDEFGABC

so that formula of whole and half steps is

WWHWWWH

Now if we start from the D (Dorian mode) instead of C, but keep every not the same, DEFGABCD the formula changes to:

WHWWWHW

so for the major scale we have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian would be 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

those flats come from if we are comparing it to the formula of the major scale.

So for Instance if we want a C Dorian scale (which would come from the Bb major scale) the notes would be:

C D Eb F G A Bb C
1 2 b3 4 5  6 b7 1

hope that helped somewhat, and i hope i understood what you weren't getting.

[MS394]

Ok, I have a question regarding modes. For example, if we have a C maj chord progression, the proper modes I can use would be like this?

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

Am i rite? 
For example, If in the chord progression a D min repeats, can I use the Cmaj scale and C Dorian?
Please tell me any mistakes in my theory please. Im a noob  .

Hope my question comes across well.  Thanks in advance 

[brakkum]

Ok, I have a question regarding modes. For example, if we have a C maj chord progression, the proper modes I can use would be like this?

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

Am i rite? 
For example, If in the chord progression a D min repeats, can I use the Cmaj scale and C Dorian?
Please tell me any mistakes in my theory please. Im a noob  .

Hope my question comes across well.  Thanks in advance 

not quite, lets see if this makes sense:

If you were to have a major chord, say C Major you could possibly play the scales C Major C Lydian or C Mixolydian over that, since those are all based off of major chords in the diatonic major scale

If you had a C minor you could play C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian, since those are based on the minor chords of the major scale.

A C dim chord would yield a C Locrian scale.

The kicker is figuring out the respective scales.

If we have a C minor chord, and the tonality requests that we use C Phrygian, we are actually using that Ab Major scale (since Phrygian is started off the 3rd degree of the major scale, and C is the 3rd degree of the Ab Major scale), but we concentrate on the chord tones that really emphasize the minor and phrygian tendencies of the chord/progression, like the 1 3 and 5 of the chord, here being C Eb G.

does that make a bit more sense?

[MS394]

Ok, I have a question regarding modes. For example, if we have a C maj chord progression, the proper modes I can use would be like this?

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

Am i rite? 
For example, If in the chord progression a D min repeats, can I use the Cmaj scale and C Dorian?
Please tell me any mistakes in my theory please. Im a noob  .

Hope my question comes across well.  Thanks in advance 

not quite, lets see if this makes sense:

If you were to have a major chord, say C Major you could possibly play the scales C Major C Lydian or C Mixolydian over that, since those are all based off of major chords in the diatonic major scale

If you had a C minor you could play C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian, since those are based on the minor chords of the major scale.

A C dim chord would yield a C Locrian scale.

The kicker is figuring out the respective scales.

If we have a C minor chord, and the tonality requests that we use C Phrygian, we are actually using that Ab Major scale (since Phrygian is started off the 3rd degree of the major scale, and C is the 3rd degree of the Ab Major scale), but we concentrate on the chord tones that really emphasize the minor and phrygian tendencies of the chord/progression, like the 1 3 and 5 of the chord, here being C Eb G.

does that make a bit more sense?

Yeah, that was really clear. Just one question: regarding the bolded part, ''the tonality requests that we use C Phrygian'', that means that one is looking for the effect of C Phrygian (the spanish, ''flamenco'', sound) ??   Or is there a way for knowing what mode the tonality requests?

Also, wouldn't the Eb in a C maj chord progression be considered ''incorrect'' because it isn't a note in the C maj scale? Or is that the nature and use of modes?

[brakkum]

Yeah, that was really clear. Just one question: regarding the bolded part, ''the tonality requests that we use C Phrygian'', that means that one is looking for the effect of C Phrygian (the spanish, ''flamenco'', sound) ??   Or is there a way for knowing what mode the tonality requests?

Also, wouldn't the Eb in a C maj chord progression be considered ''incorrect'' because it isn't a note in the C maj scale? Or is that the nature and use of modes?

right, if the song is minor but you are going for something like that (spanish type stuff) you would probably utilize phrygian, because dorian wouldn't give you that flat second that makes it sound so flamenco like, and the major 6th wouldnt fit well either.

as for the bolded part, im not sure where in my post i said that, but yes that would clash, wich sometimes works, but for theory's sake you wouldn't want that.

[SinisterMinisterX]

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

No, that is not correct.

An example of why that is wrong: C Phrygian is derived from the Ab Major scale, and thus would sound terribly dissonant over an Em chord.

Here are two examples of correct approaches...

A. Use only the notes of the C major scale, but change the note you treat as tonic. This gives:
C maj = C Ionian
D min = D Dorian
E min = E Phrygian
F maj = F Lydian
G maj = G Mixolydian
A min = A Aeolian
B dim = B Locrian

B. If you wish to use scales centered on C, think from the scale first and find the scale it is derived from to determine the backing chord
C Ionian -> derived from C major -> play over C maj chord
C Dorian -> derived from Bb major -> play over Bb maj chord
C Phrygian -> Ab maj
C Lydian -> G maj
C Mixolydian -> F maj
C Aeolian -> Eb maj
C Locrian -> Db maj (or C# maj, which is enharmonically equivalent)

Most important: these aren't the only ways of using or understanding modes. I hope they help you, but keep experimenting.

[MS394]

That was the kind of explanation I was looking for everywhere and couldn't find. I think I finally understood. Total and absolute thanks guys, Brakkum and SinisterMinisterX . It was great.

[brakkum]

ehigh five SinisterMinisterX

[Tuneman]

Ok, I have a question regarding modes. For example, if we have a C maj chord progression, the proper modes I can use would be like this?

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

Am i rite? 
For example, If in the chord progression a D min repeats, can I use the Cmaj scale and C Dorian?
Please tell me any mistakes in my theory please. Im a noob  .

Hope my question comes across well.  Thanks in advance 

not quite, lets see if this makes sense:

If you were to have a major chord, say C Major you could possibly play the scales C Major C Lydian or C Mixolydian over that, since those are all based off of major chords in the diatonic major scale

Wait how is the C lydian or C mixolydian based off of C major? I thought F Lydian or G mixolydian would sound well over a c major progression?

[brakkum]

Ok, I have a question regarding modes. For example, if we have a C maj chord progression, the proper modes I can use would be like this?

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

Am i rite? 
For example, If in the chord progression a D min repeats, can I use the Cmaj scale and C Dorian?
Please tell me any mistakes in my theory please. Im a noob  .

Hope my question comes across well.  Thanks in advance 

not quite, lets see if this makes sense:

If you were to have a major chord, say C Major you could possibly play the scales C Major C Lydian or C Mixolydian over that, since those are all based off of major chords in the diatonic major scale

Wait how is the C lydian or C mixolydian based off of C major? I thought F Lydian or G mixolydian would sound well over a c major progression?

if you play F Lydian or G Mixolydian over a C Major, its still C major, just concentrating on different harmonic points.

C Lydian and Mixolydian isn't literally based off a C Major scale diatonically, but they can be easily achieved from a C Major scale, for Lydian sharp the 4, for Mixolydian flat the 7.

[Jamesman42]

Can someone tell me why modes are useful/important? This is probably the next music theory subject I want to learn about.

[antigoon]

Well let me give you a real-world example: John Petrucci's usage of modes is extremely important. A lot of people can die if he accidentally switches to Killzone Mode when he actually meant to switch to World Domination Mode..oh who am I kidding, people would die either way.

[Jamesman42]

Antigoon, I want to meet you irl, k?

[antigoon]

k. secks?

[Jamesman42]

k.

[brakkum]

Can someone tell me why modes are useful/important? This is probably the next music theory subject I want to learn about.

hmmm, i know them, but explain them? shit.

basically they are different scales that all are derived from the basic Major scale, by making your root note a different not of the scale.

when you make chords from the major scale by using the 1 3 5, 2 4 6, etc. you get these:

Maj, Min, Min, Maj, Maj, Min, Dim

and for more detail, you use the sevenths as well (1 3 5 7, 2 4 6 1, ...)(the modes are in () here)

Maj7 (Ionian (Major)), Min7 (Dorian), Min7 (Phrygian), Maj7 (Lydian), Dom7 (Mixolydian), Min7 (Aeolian (Minor)), Half Dim7 (Locrian)

basically when you get these basic chords, the modes are scales that fit within the chord, and within the overall tonality of the song.

If I have a G Dom7th chord, I would most like be using the Mixolydian mode, because it is derived from the scale degree.

If I had a progression of Dmajor to Emajor, that would tell me the we are using the 4th and 5th degrees of the major scale to get those, though our parent scale may not be obvious just from using those two chords.

this was probably a horrible and half assed way of trying to explain them, though it is extremely important to learn and know them as best you can for playing and improvisation.

[Jamesman42]

I don't know how, but that makes sense to me. I've actually used this in improvising before, and it made sense to me. 

[Tuneman]

Ok, I have a question regarding modes. For example, if we have a C maj chord progression, the proper modes I can use would be like this?

For this chord -  I can use this?
C maj               C Ionian  ( WWHWWWH )
D min               C Dorian ( WHWWWHW )
E min                C phrygian
F Maj               C Lydian
G Maj               C  Mixolydian
A Min                C Aeolian
B dim b5             C Locrian

Am i rite? 
For example, If in the chord progression a D min repeats, can I use the Cmaj scale and C Dorian?
Please tell me any mistakes in my theory please. Im a noob  .

Hope my question comes across well.  Thanks in advance 

not quite, lets see if this makes sense:

If you were to have a major chord, say C Major you could possibly play the scales C Major C Lydian or C Mixolydian over that, since those are all based off of major chords in the diatonic major scale

Wait how is the C lydian or C mixolydian based off of C major? I thought F Lydian or G mixolydian would sound well over a c major progression?

if you play F Lydian or G Mixolydian over a C Major, its still C major, just concentrating on different harmonic points.

C Lydian and Mixolydian isn't literally based off a C Major scale diatonically, but they can be easily achieved from a C Major scale, for Lydian sharp the 4, for Mixolydian flat the 7.

So you are saying depending on what chord is being played, you may be able to play C lydian or C mixolydian, etc..

For example if Fmaj is being played, you can play C Mixolydian, because C is the 5th scale degree in the Fmaj scale, but then once you switch chords, this mode will not work anymore?

[brakkum]

So you are saying depending on what chord is being played, you may be able to play C lydian or C mixolydian, etc..

For example if Fmaj is being played, you can play C Mixolydian, because C is the 5th scale degree in the Fmaj scale, but then once you switch chords, this mode will not work anymore?

not that, if F Maj is being played you could play an F Major, Lydian or Mixolydian scale of it, and it would work. When you get into adding more chords is when it really makes a difference as to what the scale is.

Say we have and F Maj chord, just repeating for 8 bars.
For bars 1-4 Ill play Ionian (Major)
5-6 Ill try Lydian
7-8 Ill give Mixolydian a try

There isnt a reason why i would do that, other than if it is the same old F Major chord then I can imply a mode, since those 3 modes have a Major chord as their basis.

Now If I had and F Major for 4 bars, then a G Major for 2 bars, and C Major for the last two bars I would look at those, and realize that they are all major, and have a I IV V relation ship with each other in the key of C Major.

So the F Major chord I would play F Lydian, which is based off the 4th scale degree of the major scale
The G Major I would play G Mixolydian, since it is based of the 5th degree of the scale
Then for the C Major I would Simply play C Ionian since it would represent the I chord in this case.

[Tuneman]

Oh ok i see what you are saying.  So its ok to play that F ionian, lydian, and mixolydian, but if you were to play a F lydian over a F major scale, will the character of the sound be different than a C major Ionian over a Cmaj chord?

[SinisterMinisterX]

Yes, Lydian sounds different from Ionian.

Here's my attempt to describe the "character" of each mode:

Major modes (usually sound best when played over major chords)

Ionian is the major scale. It usually sounds happy.

Mixolydian lowers the 7th degree a half-step, and works best over a dominant seventh chord. Do not use it over a major seventh chord! That lowered 7th adds a bit of blues feeling to it, but overall it still sounds happy.

Lydian leaves the 7th degree alone, and instead raises the 4th degree a half-step. This implies a maj7#11 chord - more often found in jazz than rock. It can be made to sound jazzy, but in my opinion the altered 4th makes it sound happy with a trace of the exotic.

Minor modes (usually sound best when played over minor chords)

Aeolian is the minor scale. It sounds sad, or tragic.

Dorian is the minor scale with a raised 6th degree. This makes it minor on the bottom and major on the top. A blend of Aeolian and Mixolydian. It lightens up the sadness, compared to the Aeolian mode.

Phrygian is the "Egyptian" or "Eastern" sounding one, due to the lowered 2nd degree. Songs which use this mode often emphasize that flat 2nd (like the main riff of DT's "Home").


Locrian has a flat 2nd and a flat 5th, and because of the flat 5th it works best over diminished chords. If you want to use 7th chords, use half-diminished instead of fully diminished. This mode just sounds evil.


Please remember that the "character" of the modes is my personal opinion, but the information about chords here is fact.

[brakkum]

^ yes.

its all a matter of how everything sounds. theory is just a basis of these things, execution is where you really find out how they sound.

[britoven]

This may be a bit late, but anyway... you need to be able to recognize each mode when you hear it, and know what their individual color is. An exercise I have used successfully with students at different levels is to take a simple familiar tune (one that uses all seven pitch classes in any given diatonic mode)and play it in all the different modes back-to-back for aural contrast. This will give you an idea of how each mode is different to each other, and will eventually allow you to identify the characteristci sonority of each one. It's important to keep in mind that the origin of modes was melodic at the beginning, while harmony developed over time.

Take for instance a familiar tune like "Deck the Halls" (is this familiar to everyone?) Play it in C; the original tune is obviuosly in the major (ionian) mode. Now add a sharp to all the Fs in the tune; this will exemplify the Lydian quality. After that, take the original tune and add a flat to all the Bs for an example of the mixolydian sonority. Taking the mixolydian version, now add flats to all Es for the dorian flavor. Then, add flats to all As for aeolian. Now, for the phrygian mode, add flats to all Ds in the aeolian version. Finally add flats to all Gs, and you will get an example of the locrian sonority. Now repeat the previous steps ad nauseaum...

Once you´ve become familiar with the melodic quality of each mode, and can recognize them easily, start adding harmonies to each resulting variation of the original tune. The chords you need to use will off course be different for each mode. For instance, if harmonizing an F# in the lydian version, you won't be able to use any chord diatonic to C major; you would probably use D major, or some other chord that contains F#; I'd recommend to use triads at the beginning, and as you become more comfortable with modes add bigger chords.

I hope this makes sense, and helps you somehow.

Britoven

[brakkum]

^Definitely!

I do this with melodies sometimes to just realize the sonic difference.