Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak

[The King in Crimson]

Not a popular choice I knnow, but I could have the whole of Hemispheres removed, or tweaked to be more like Cygnus X1 

I was going to post that actually, but I didn't think that would've have been a very helpful criticism.

Although I love it to pieces and while it is broken up into multiple different songs it very much is one song, I think Cassandra Gemini by The Mars Volta could do with some editing. Maybe shorten some of the ambient noise sections, but don't remove them all together.

[Buddyhunter1]

The Ministry Of Lost Souls - Get rid of the out-of-nowhere instrumental section and trim down the remaining stuff by 50% and you might have a somewhat tolerable song.

Shine On You Crazy Diamond - The first batch of Gilmour solos before the vocals come in go on for waaaay too long.

Black Rose Immortal - The only parts of this song I can remember are the beginning, the end, and some random synth part buried somewhere in the middle. Pretty much the prime example of how NOT to write an epic.

Raider II - The little coda at the end of the big finale is pretty pointless.

The Sky Moves Sideways - Stops being interesting about halfway through Phase 2.

[Onno]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned TMOLS yet.

Maybe because it's perfect the way it is.   

Well, that's my opinion, yes 

[lateralus88]

This may be heresy, but fuck it--

The last couple minutes or so of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.

[KevShmev]

Anyone who says that any of Shine On You Crazy Diamond should be trimmed off should be taken out back and their heads dunked in a horse trough.  Seriously.

Raider II - The little coda at the end of the big finale is pretty pointless.

I totally get this thinking, as I held a similar thought until recently, but having discovered what the song is about and done my breakdown of how the song echoes the story of the BTK killer (see the Steven Wilson thread for that), I think the coda does fit very well.

[Nel]

I can agree on the noise section of Echoes. That's always a chore to sit through.

Raider II could use some trimming too. About 20 minutes worth. 

[lateralus88]

Anyone who says that any of Shine On You Crazy Diamond should be trimmed off should be taken out back and their heads dunked in a horse trough.  Seriously.

Honestly, one of my favourite parts of that song is the very end because if you pay attention to the sax and nothing else, you can hear it fading off into emptiness as the album transitions to Welcome to the Machine. But it never sounds like it actually stops, just gets softer and softer until you can no longer hear it. The mental imagery it gives me is absolutely beautiful.

Shine On You Crazy Diamond is also one of my all time favourite songs though, so I'm a bit biased.

[KevShmev]

Yep, that is most definitely awesome (although I was referring to both Shine Ons earlier...both are flawless).

[lateralus88]

Fair enough. Part 1 is "better" but both tracks (fuck it, Wish You Were Here in general) are absolute perfection.

[Buddyhunter1]

Anyone who says that any of Shine On You Crazy Diamond should be trimmed off should be taken out back and their heads dunked in a horse trough.  Seriously.

*runs*

Also, Parts 6-9 > 1-5. I'm serious.

[Kotowboy]

A Nightmare To Remember is way too long for the sake of it. It could easily be half it's length.

[Lucien]

"Octavarium" - eradicate Full Circle and Razor's Edge and it's a good song.
"First Light" (Shadow Gallery) - cut out that weird-ass middle part and it's a little shorter and a LOT better.
"Black Rose Immortal" (Opeth) - cut off the last fourteen minutes.

Yeah, that's probably more often than not my complaint with epics: too little amount of musical ideas to justify their length.

What about IV: Intervals? I think Full Circle is the only part of the song that would be preferable to remove, Razor's Edge is fine.

The first 3:47 of the song would by some be considered boring, (not me) so they might think about cutting it off.


All the dead air time during the beginning of 2112.
The Necromancer kind of drags on with the storytelling honestly.

A Nightmare To Remember is way too long for the sake of it. It could easily be half it's length.

I mostly agree.

[Kotowboy]

I reckon ANTR could have been a Master Of Puppets. 8 minutes long. with the heavy verse and chorus sections and the quiet bit in the middle like MOP.

Maybe i'll do an edit one day and try and cut it down to 8 minutes.

[Scorpion]

"Octavarium" - eradicate Full Circle and Razor's Edge and it's a good song.

What about IV: Intervals?

I love love love Intervals! Such a great climax and the instrumental part is amazing as well, though I wouldn't really miss it, either. But the that build-up, and that release scream are the best part of the song, by a long shot.

Razor's Edge is fine.

I know I'm in the minority with my opinion, but to me Razor's Edge just feels tacked on after that amazing climax in Intervals, and the solo is boring. And no, it has nothing to do with it being unshreddy, it's just... boring. Like the TMOLS outro solo, it just doesn't really do a lot to me if it's just ONE FUCKING MELODY repeated for two minutes.

Also, another one that I thought of: "Swin to the Moon" (Between the Buried and Me). None of the parts are really bad, but it just feels a little uninspired and the parts don't really transition very well into one another. I think it would have been better to make, like, three smaller songs out of it instead of just cramming all of these into one epic.

[robwebster]

I reckon ANTR could have been a Master Of Puppets. 8 minutes long. with the heavy verse and chorus sections and the quiet bit in the middle like MOP.

Maybe i'll do an edit one day and try and cut it down to 8 minutes.

I'm constantly wanting to do edits of the BCSL tracks. Someone made a brilliant edit of Beautiful Agony, I'd love to do A Bullet from the Night, with just the heavy bits. Don't have the processing power at the mo, not since my desktop went kerplooey, but one day, certainly.

[Ben_Jamin]

The only part in ANTR I feel is unecessary, the part after the ROAR, where they repeat the main riff with JR doing weird bebot stuff.

[Kotowboy]

"Octavarium"

i wouldn't change a thing about Octavarium. I love it all the way thru.

[Mladen]

A Nightmare To Remember is way too long for the sake of it. It could easily be half it's length.

That's another fine example. Although I wouldn't cut it in half, maybe just shorten the ending and the solo section in the middle.

[Lucien]

I think Breaking All Illusions could have been longer, and with more of a story. That song is AMAZING.

[Orbert]

Anyone who says that any of Shine On You Crazy Diamond should be trimmed off should be taken out back and their heads dunked in a horse trough.  Seriously.

Honestly, one of my favourite parts of that song is the very end because if you pay attention to the sax and nothing else, you can hear it fading off into emptiness as the album transitions to Welcome to the Machine. But it never sounds like it actually stops, just gets softer and softer until you can no longer hear it. The mental imagery it gives me is absolutely beautiful.

You're talking about the end of the first part.  Debra was talking about the very end of the song (at the end of the album), the synth solo epilogue.  Everything that needed to be said, both musically and lyrically, has been said.  To go on for another couple of minutes just going "sad... despair... dark... mournful..." serves no purpose.

[Zantera]

Without stepping on too many toes, most of what DT has put out since 6DOIT. There are a few exceptions, but most of the long songs could have used some trimming.

[Elite]

Without stepping on too many toes, most of what DT has put out since 6DOIT. There are a few exceptions, but most of the long songs could have used some trimming.

Agreed, but for the sake of not mentioning DT, here's a couple I think could be trimmed:

- Sleeping in Traffic by Beardfish; Don't get me wrong: awesome song! But it takes too long to get somewhere. The first 10 minutes or so could have been done in 4-5.
- The Great Nothing by Spock's Beard; great song, with some great ideas, but it drags here and there.
- By The Pain I See In Others by Opeth; yeah.. no comment.
- Russia on Ice by Porcupine Tree; I'll get the most slack for this one, but really.. does this need to be 13 minutes long? It's definitely good, but would have done in under 10 minutes without becoming bad. In this shape it just drags a little.

[DebraKadabra]

Anyone who says that any of Shine On You Crazy Diamond should be trimmed off should be taken out back and their heads dunked in a horse trough.  Seriously.

Honestly, one of my favourite parts of that song is the very end because if you pay attention to the sax and nothing else, you can hear it fading off into emptiness as the album transitions to Welcome to the Machine. But it never sounds like it actually stops, just gets softer and softer until you can no longer hear it. The mental imagery it gives me is absolutely beautiful.

You're talking about the end of the first part.  Debra was talking about the very end of the song (at the end of the album), the synth solo epilogue.  Everything that needed to be said, both musically and lyrically, has been said.  To go on for another couple of minutes just going "sad... despair... dark... mournful..." serves no purpose.

Thanks, Orbert - that is EXACTLY what I meant.  Sorry for not clarifying, but I am one of the weirdos who thinks of Shine On as one song, regardless of the chop in the middle.

[Hayden]

A Nightmare To Remember is way too long for the sake of it. It could easily be half it's length.

I actually really enjoy almost all of 'ANtR'. The only part that I feel is unnecessary is the outtro. Those two pieces of music simply did not have to be reprised. I feel like DT got caught up in wanting to end the song in the same way it began, which I understand, but I feel that it really caused the song to drag towards the end, and didn't do it any favours. It should have ended with a bang at exactly 14:14.

[wolfking]

Sleep - Dopesmoker (I like it as a extra long song, but 63 minutes is a bit too long)
DT - The Count of Tuscany (just a minute or two off the quiet middle section)
Iron Maiden - Rime of the Ancient Mariner (I feel the middle is a tad too long)
Helloween - Occasion Avenue (Terrific song, but the middle could be cut out)

[kirksnosehair]

The "hidden" thing at the end of "Stranger In Your Soul" is useless (Transatlantic)


The intro to "Octavarium" should be half as long as it is, if not less (Dream Theater)


The outtro to "The Great Nothing" drags on way too long (Spock'd Beard)


"Garden of Dreams" has a couple of tracks in the second half that are just noise effects and utterly useless bloat (The Flower Kings)

[masterthes]

Spoken samples in Ocean Cloud (Marillion) should've been cut out

[JayOctavarium]

So I agree that ANTR could have been shaved a tad...


And at times I think SOYCD could be trimmed a very small amount... but I do love the ending (See Emily Play nugget)

[Ruba]

Octavarium. I don't like Medicate Me. On the other hand, intro could be even longer. It's awesome.
When the Wild Wind Blows by Iron Maiden. Six minutes would be enough.
The Camera Eye by Rush. The intro is sooo boring.

*flameshield on*

[lateralus88]

Anyone who says that any of Shine On You Crazy Diamond should be trimmed off should be taken out back and their heads dunked in a horse trough.  Seriously.

Honestly, one of my favourite parts of that song is the very end because if you pay attention to the sax and nothing else, you can hear it fading off into emptiness as the album transitions to Welcome to the Machine. But it never sounds like it actually stops, just gets softer and softer until you can no longer hear it. The mental imagery it gives me is absolutely beautiful.

You're talking about the end of the first part.  Debra was talking about the very end of the song (at the end of the album), the synth solo epilogue.  Everything that needed to be said, both musically and lyrically, has been said.  To go on for another couple of minutes just going "sad... despair... dark... mournful..." serves no purpose.

Ohhh, thanks for the clarification. I still disagree, but whatevs. To each their own.

[black_biff_stadler]

Wait for Sleep - We get it, Kev. You like B notes.

[DebraKadabra]

 

[Ben_Jamin]

I think Breaking All Illusions could have been longer, and with more of a story. That song is AMAZING.

This....theirs lots of good musical ideas that are only played for a measure or two

[Nekov]

Siberian Khatru could do without the last 2 or 3 minutes as well, it's just some random stuff that doesn't add anything important to the song.

[Orbert]

Yeah, except for Steve Howe's guitar solo, which smokes.  It's one of my favorite solos of his.