Author Topic: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak  (Read 4494 times)

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Offline Hayden

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Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« on: May 10, 2013, 10:04:04 PM »
First of all, I understand why all prog rock fans enjoy an epic; it's the same reason I enjoy an epic. It's a musical journey unlike any other listening experience. It tells a story, it allows for greater musical freedom, it allows for creative arrangements, it passes through a number of passages which are stylistically varied, and generally conveys a vast spectrum of tones and emotions. For these reasons, the progressive rock epic is a song type which has the ability to reach climaxes that aren't otherwise possible in most rock songs.

But, unfortunately that's not always the case; it still needs to be done well, of course. And often it isn't done well; prog epics often actually fall short of achieving their full potential. But usually it's not due to a lack of ideas; instead, it's a matter of simply 'missing the mark.' Some failed epics actually have some terrific musical ideas, but they're hampered by unnecessary fluff which breaks momentum and prevents the song from reaching any sort of climax. It's in these cases that the song could probably be trimmed. I understand how proud and possessive musicians are of their ideas and compositions, but if an idea doesn't contribute something to the song as a whole, then I think it's fair to say that it has no right to be there.

At other times, it can simply be a case of an idea being mistreated, or a musical idea taking the wrong direction. So often, I will sit down and listen to a prog epic and think - sometimes multiple times throughout its duration - "damn, if only they'd done that part differently." It's moments like these that I wish the band had reflected on their own creation, listened to it critically, and changed things up a little. Sometimes a minor tweak can be the difference between a great piece of music and an underwhelming piece of music.

If you happen to share these same gripes, then let us know - which prog rock epics do you think could be trimmed or altered for the purpose of improving the overall song?


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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2013, 10:12:43 PM »
Pink Floyd - Echoes (noise section)
DT - The Count of Tuscany (noise section)
DT - Octavarium (long shred section)
DT - Stream of COnsciousness (entire bass groove section)
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2013, 10:14:31 PM »
Overture of SDOIT. If they made it short and sweet like Overture 1928, it'd be a lot better.
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Offline ColdFireYYZ

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 10:27:14 PM »
The first one that came to mind is Neal Morse's World Without End. I'm not sure what parts I would cut out but it's way too long.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 11:30:13 PM by ColdFireYYZ »

Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 10:33:56 PM »
This may be heresy, but fuck it--

The last couple minutes or so of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 11:03:11 PM »
Transatlantic - All of the Above (the final 2 1/2 minutes, while being nice, is completely unnecessary and seems tacked on for no reason)
Dream Theater - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (the overture should have been shorter and better, and that long fadeout is still totally silly)

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 11:58:56 PM »
Porcupine Tree - Anesthetize - trim the ending or spin it off into its own song. It's good but it feels a bit divorced from the rest of the song.

Offline Lowdz

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2013, 03:38:48 AM »
Not a popular choice I knnow, but I could have the whole of Hemispheres removed, or tweaked to be more like Cygnus X1  :lol

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2013, 03:59:47 AM »
"Octavarium" - eradicate Full Circle and Razor's Edge and it's a good song.
"First Light" (Shadow Gallery) - cut out that weird-ass middle part and it's a little shorter and a LOT better.
"Black Rose Immortal" (Opeth) - cut off the last fourteen minutes.

Yeah, that's probably more often than not my complaint with epics: too little amount of musical ideas to justify their length.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2013, 04:29:05 AM »
This may be heresy, but fuck it--

The last couple minutes or so of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.

Agreed.  I love "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" and I wouldn't touch anything else, but that final synth solo bores me to tears and is just an unnecessary epilogue.  And I like Richard's synth solos.

Offline Scorpion

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2013, 05:01:06 AM »
This may be heresy, but fuck it--

The last couple minutes or so of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.

Agreed.  I love "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" and I wouldn't touch anything else, but that final synth solo bores me to tears and is just an unnecessary epilogue.  And I like Richard's synth solos.

Really? That's probably my favourite part of the whole song, I love the warm feeling that that synth melody evokes.
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Offline ?

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2013, 06:00:24 AM »
I agree with _floyd on Echoes. Other unnecessarily long songs that come to mind:

Octavarium (the intro is a bit too long and the noodling between Full Circle and Intervals is totally pointless)
Six Degrees (some overall trimming down would improve it, like making Overture shorter, for example)
In the Presence of Enemies (The Reckoning is the biggest anticlimax in the DT catalogue besides the instrumental section in TMOLS)
Porcupine Tree - Arriving Somewhere but Not Here (really good song, but at the same time the length makes it feel pretty repetitive)
Opeth - Blackwater Park (the first mellow section kills all the momentum and the song never gets it back after that - the later parts are also pretty meh and could be trimmed down)
Steven Wilson - Raider II (it's just hard to sit through the whole thing thanks to the ambient sections)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 06:26:06 AM by ? »

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2013, 06:10:13 AM »
Anyone who says SDOIT is wrong. There is nothing you could cut from that Overture and have it still work as perfectly as it does.
And cutting Razor's Edge? LOL!
I'd agree with cutting The Reckoning from ITPOE Pt 2 though. It's the only part of the song dragging it down.

Aside from DT, I don't listen to the type of band who would write an "epic" along those lines.
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Offline Mladen

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2013, 06:21:49 AM »
Great thread.

Pink Floyd - Echoes (noise section)
Absolutely.

DT - The Count of Tuscany (noise section)
You mean the ending, right? I hope you're not thinking of the Floydian JP solo, that's a wonderful section.

Transatlantic - All of the Above (the final 2 1/2 minutes, while being nice, is completely unnecessary and seems tacked on for no reason)
This was the first song that crossed my mind when I saw the thread title, I absolutely agree.

This may be heresy, but fuck it--

The last couple minutes or so of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.

Agreed.  I love "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" and I wouldn't touch anything else, but that final synth solo bores me to tears and is just an unnecessary epilogue.  And I like Richard's synth solos.

Really? That's probably my favourite part of the whole song, I love the warm feeling that that synth melody evokes.
Same here. Good to know someone else loves that solo, it's probably the most emotional section, especially the moment it kicks in and the first couple of chords.

Anyway, if I'm supposed to add something...

Yes - The Ritual (the second half goes on for too long in my opinion)
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2013, 06:24:14 AM »
The latter 3 epics on Tales From Topographic Oceans could stand to lose most of their duration. :P

Offline robwebster

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 06:33:11 AM »
Most of them! Long form's great when it's pulled off correctly, but it's much harder to do right than a shorter song. Big offenders include In the Presence of Enemies, Anesthetize, The Poet and the Pendulum - which, compare and contrast to Blind Faith, Arriving Somewhere But Not Here, and Ghost Love Score. The latter selection are still long, anywhere from three to four times as big as the standard radio hit, but I think they feel more cohesive, less of a hodge-podge and more of a journey. They use the medium a lot better.

Not to say short songs can't be scattergun too, nor that epics are always less cohesive than their shorter counterparts, nor that being less cohesive is always bad! A Change of Seasons, though it's far from my favourite DT epic, is one of those songs where everything is very much part of the same story, and very definitely feels like it. I prefer Octavarium, but it's way more bipolar, as is something like Prophets of War, which completely loses momentum somewhere around the first chorus, or A Rite of Passage with its bafflingly abrupt instrumental section. But I think long songs, because they're so rare and mythical, are almost considered achievements unto themselves, like it's a sign of genius, whereas I think it's just as often the case that an epic's a sign that it would've been nice to parachute some kind of editor in at some point.

(A Rite of Passage, incidentally, could totally use an editor too. It's a short song masquerading as a long-ish song - I like it, but I reckon it could be as short as Supermassive Black Hole, and all the better for it.)

Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2013, 07:04:13 AM »
Jesus Christ. It's not enough that 9.3 bands rarely make songs longer than 4 minutes? You all gotta pick at the small fraction that dares to try for more?

If you want short songs there's always... SO MANY FUCKING OTHER BANDS!

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 07:08:49 AM »
Jesus Christ. It's not enough that 9.3 bands rarely make songs longer than 4 minutes? You all gotta pick at the small fraction that dares to try for more?

If you want short songs there's always... SO MANY FUCKING OTHER BANDS!

I don't understand what your point is. Should people not express any critique of longer songs just because they're rarer? A song either works, or it has elements that don't work. The existence of short songs have no bearing on the opinion or success of a longer song.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 07:16:37 AM »
Transatlantic - My New World - It could deal without the last 2 or 3 minutes.
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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 07:18:51 AM »
Maybe I'm just growing tired of the "bitch about everything" mentality of the internet.

To my video games I retreat.

Offline robwebster

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 07:21:56 AM »
Jesus Christ. It's not enough that 9.3 bands rarely make songs longer than 4 minutes? You all gotta pick at the small fraction that dares to try for more?

If you want short songs there's always... SO MANY FUCKING OTHER BANDS!
Longness is rare, but that doesn't make it a passport to quality! Some 1,000 page novels are brilliant, others would benefit from being cut to 250. As you increase the length, you increase the number of challenges. I think a round of applause is absolutely fair for the ambition, and the vision, but I also think setting a bar higher is only truly impressive when the athlete makes the jump!

There's an old adage that good things, when short, are twice as good. It's not always true, sometimes extra length is vital to tell a story, and to fit a mood, but that doesn't mean every story will always benefits from being a little bit longer. I think it's an idea that broadly holds - and for all the superb epics, there are always some that will end up a little undercooked. I don't think it's wrong to discuss both types, and which we feel belong to which category.

Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 07:25:38 AM »
Longness is rare, but that doesn't make it a passport to quality!

I disagree. Think of all your favorite albums. I bet the songs you like more are longer.

I believe you're a Muse fan right? Soldier's Poem or Knights Of Cyddonia?

Offline rumborak

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 07:26:04 AM »
The AA suite could easily have been trimmed by 50%.
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Offline robwebster

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 07:29:22 AM »
Longness is rare, but that doesn't make it a passport to quality!

I disagree. Think of all your favorite albums. I bet the songs you like more are longer.

I believe you're a Muse fan right? Soldier's Poem or Knights Of Cyddonia?
Knights of Cydonia - but I don't love it because it's long! Soldier's Poem beats Invincible for me, which I also love, and is around the same length as KoC. I'm seriously fond of SP.

Offline Onno

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 07:48:13 AM »
This may be heresy, but fuck it--

The last couple minutes or so of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.
ANGELS FALL
ALL FOR YOU
HERETIC!!!!!

Yes, that means it's heresy  :biggrin:

Anyone who says SDOIT is wrong. There is nothing you could cut from that Overture and have it still work as perfectly as it does.
And cutting Razor's Edge? LOL!
That's right!

"Black Rose Immortal" (Opeth) - cut off the last fourteen minutes.
:tup
IMO, it should have been cut into a few different songs; the transitions are quite random and most parts just don't have a distinguished connection with each other. But I have that with a lot of stuff on their first two albums.
Your post about Octavarium is ridiculous though, but that's my opinion  :lol


I'm surprised no one has mentioned TMOLS yet.

Offline carl320

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2013, 08:55:56 AM »
My thing about epics is when there are too many musical ideas, to the point where the whole thing feels scatterbrained.  Stream of Consciousness is my favorite DT instrumental because it's not a bunch of random riffs put together.  It feels like it was developed and worked upon.  That's my main issue with ACoS.  Any musical idea in "Innocence" doesn't come back again.  It doesn't make it a bad song overall but I lose the sense of it being one long song.  Octavarium IMO is the superior DT epic.
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Offline Jaq

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2013, 09:00:03 AM »
Agree 100% about All of the Above by Transatlantic; it's almost as if they realized it was brushing 30 minutes and added that ending just to get that far.

6DOIT is a brilliant 35 minute long song...that's unfortunately 42 minutes long.

I actually agree with Debra;I can count on one hand, in the last ten years, I've listened to ALL of the second part of Shine On You Crazy Diamond.

I also think that most songs with lengthy ambient sections could stand to have said sections reduced heavily, or altered to work better. Gamma Ray's Heading For Tomorrow originally had a far too long, pointless ambient section which genuinely felt like it was added to make the song 14 minutes long. When they re-recorded in 2000 with Kai Hansen singing it, the ambient section was given lyrics and music which built to a more appropriate climax. So perhaps we should focus on the things that need to be tweaked, leaving the song the same length while making it better.
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Offline ZKX-2099

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2013, 09:04:06 AM »
My thing about epics is when there are too many musical ideas, to the point where the whole thing feels scatterbrained.  Stream of Consciousness is my favorite DT instrumental because it's not a bunch of random riffs put together.  It feels like it was developed and worked upon.  That's my main issue with ACoS.  Any musical idea in "Innocence" doesn't come back again.  It doesn't make it a bad song overall but I lose the sense of it being one long song.  Octavarium IMO is the superior DT epic.

So repetition makes a good song?

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2013, 09:06:32 AM »
Agree 100% about All of the Above by Transatlantic; it's almost as if they realized it was brushing 30 minutes and added that ending just to get that far.

 

Same thing with Stranger in Your Soul, which has that completely unnecessary hidden track at the end so the track can be exactly 30 minutes.  Thank God for online programs that allow me to edit that crap out while keeping the file still in HQ!

Offline Jaq

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2013, 09:09:29 AM »
Agree 100% about All of the Above by Transatlantic; it's almost as if they realized it was brushing 30 minutes and added that ending just to get that far.

 

Same thing with Stranger in Your Soul, which has that completely unnecessary hidden track at the end so the track can be exactly 30 minutes.  Thank God for online programs that allow me to edit that crap out while keeping the file still in HQ!

There's a hidden track at the end to make it 30 minutes long precisely?  :rollin

I'm not a fan of hidden tracks, anyway; when the song sounds like it's done, I turn it off. Ain't got time to hang around to see if there's more!
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Offline Mladen

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2013, 09:11:35 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned TMOLS yet.
Maybe because it's perfect the way it is.  ;)  ;D

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2013, 09:12:42 AM »
Agreed, Jaq.  I think that some musicians think that having hidden tracks is clever, but it isn't at all; it is stupid.

I think no one has mentioned The Ministry of Lost Souls because that song needs a total rewrite, not just some tweaking.

Offline robwebster

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2013, 09:15:42 AM »
Agreed, Jaq.  I think that some musicians think that having hidden tracks is clever, but it isn't at all; it is stupid.

I think no one has mentioned The Ministry of Lost Souls because that song needs a total rewrite, not just some tweaking.
Or, just as likely, cos nobody really thinks of it as an epic. Do understand the school of thought that it needs a total rewrite, though. Don't know if it's where I personally am, but I definitely get it. Funnily, the intro's almost too far the other way - doesn't fuck about, straight in there... and it's properly abrupt!

Hidden tracks, I'm fine with, as long as they're not attached to the previous track. I like what Tool did with Disgustipated. Indexed as its own track, and I quite like watching the numbers on the CD player go wild. But two songs on one track with a big silence in the middle is beyond irritating.

Offline carl320

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2013, 09:18:46 AM »
My thing about epics is when there are too many musical ideas, to the point where the whole thing feels scatterbrained.  Stream of Consciousness is my favorite DT instrumental because it's not a bunch of random riffs put together.  It feels like it was developed and worked upon.  That's my main issue with ACoS.  Any musical idea in "Innocence" doesn't come back again.  It doesn't make it a bad song overall but I lose the sense of it being one long song.  Octavarium IMO is the superior DT epic.

So repetition makes a good song?

No, developing existing ideas makes a good epic.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Epics That Could Do With a Trim or a Tweak
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2013, 09:19:30 AM »
Agree 100% about All of the Above by Transatlantic; it's almost as if they realized it was brushing 30 minutes and added that ending just to get that far.

 

Same thing with Stranger in Your Soul, which has that completely unnecessary hidden track at the end so the track can be exactly 30 minutes.  Thank God for online programs that allow me to edit that crap out while keeping the file still in HQ!

There's a hidden track at the end to make it 30 minutes long precisely?  :rollin

I'm not a fan of hidden tracks, anyway; when the song sounds like it's done, I turn it off. Ain't got time to hang around to see if there's more!

It's not quite hidden.  The song seems to end properly, there's some silence, then a jam fades up.  It goes on for a few minutes, then ends.  The track is exactly 30 minutes, so there's no question that the extra jam was added just to make it 30 minutes.