Author Topic: "The President should lead"  (Read 2431 times)

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 10:45:49 AM »
Almost all presidents are revered to some degree, unless they were completely awful and not noteworthy, both as POTUS and afterwards. You've gotta be completely partisan to say there aren't two sides to Obama's ledger.

I don't think he'll be revered particularly greatly, though, except maybe as a Civil Rights hero, just by virtue of being the first black president. In that case, though, it's not really about him, but society on the whole, and how we've become better  at least some ways, and how what Lincoln started is finally coming to completion.

That, coupled with other Civil Rights causes he's championed and committed to doing something about.

That's the problem with Obama, really. In a time of peace and prosperity, he'd flourish as a domestic leader who inspired the nation to be its best self. As a wartime president, he's not very good. That's the total opposite of Bush, who was really only ever able to pull the nation together against the backdrop of some common threat.

Obama's promise was "hope" and "change", to end a decade of war and turn the nation inward and invest in America again. It would have been great, it just didn't happen.

Even that I would say isn't completely true. After all, we are out of Iraq and on our way out of Afghanistan now, and the economy has been turned around to some degree. I think media and discussion here tends to downplay how much actually has changed in the last four years. Human beings are, after all, more prone to focusing on the negatives or the lack of progress, which is what we've surely done here.

Edit: OK off-topic, but whose name is Malt Licky? OMG, please post here you wonderfully named person. :lol
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 10:47:34 AM »
We're out of those wars, but there's a handful of new, even less "warish" wars we've now involved in. I can't say with a firm heart that I believe Obama's done much to promote peace in the world.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 10:50:37 AM »
Hey, a greater number but less "warish" wars are better than staying in the same two real ones in my book. At least our decreased involvement makes mission creep less likely. And as you learn in international relations, world peace is a tricky thing. Learning about it has probably made me more cynical as far as international cooperation, but hey.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2013, 10:55:42 AM »
Hey, a greater number but less "warish" wars are better than staying in the same two real ones in my book. At least our decreased involvement makes mission creep less likely. And as you learn in international relations, world peace is a tricky thing. Learning about it has probably made me more cynical as far as international cooperation, but hey.

World peace IS a tricky thing. Especially when continued hegemony is the true ultimate foreign policy goal.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2013, 11:11:44 AM »
Hey, a greater number but less "warish" wars are better than staying in the same two real ones in my book. At least our decreased involvement makes mission creep less likely. And as you learn in international relations, world peace is a tricky thing. Learning about it has probably made me more cynical as far as international cooperation, but hey.

World peace IS a tricky thing. Especially when continued hegemony is the true ultimate foreign policy goal.

From a realist's perspective. But then a realist doesn't normally consider true world peace possible.
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Offline Tick

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2013, 11:13:22 AM »
I keep hearing some of you saying the economy is turning around somewhat. I don't see it and I'm not experiencing it in Connecticut. I have seen the retail flooring industry get worse every year since 07. I know many trade men and none of them are doing well anymore.
My wife is a manager for a fairly large home security company and even they are very slow right now.
I tend to look around me and Gage what's happening from real people all around me. Friends, family, business associates, etc.
I'm seeing things worsen each year from the prior year.
Being told things are getting better equates to little to nothing for me when the evidence I see says differently.
I want to believe things are getting better but I'm not feelin it.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2013, 12:01:01 PM »
Anecdotal evidence is never good, and your personal experience of the economy is hardly a full picture. Some area's of this country are doing fantastic, other area's are not doing so well. On the whole, the economy has generally gotten better since Obama took office (as seen in a variety of economic measures), but that doesn't mean you yourself have to be doing better. That's a very self-centered way of looking at things, and I daresay destructive to constructive dialogue.

Offline Tick

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2013, 12:14:17 PM »
Anecdotal evidence is never good, and your personal experience of the economy is hardly a full picture. Some area's of this country are doing fantastic, other area's are not doing so well. On the whole, the economy has generally gotten better since Obama took office (as seen in a variety of economic measures), but that doesn't mean you yourself have to be doing better. That's a very self-centered way of looking at things, and I daresay destructive to constructive dialogue.
I'm not trying to come off as self centered. I am merely pointing out what I am seeing in my world around me. I don't believe this country is thriving in too many areas, but I'm not going to war with you over it. So...
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Offline Tick

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2013, 12:27:34 PM »
No, I'm agreeing with Tick that the numbers we're being fed are bogus.

I'm also trying to point out to Tick that we were fed the same bogus numbers before Obama, too.
I'm not being political...Obama vs. Bush. I'm not always looking to blame one side or the other. I am well aware both sides are fucked up.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2013, 12:30:25 PM »
Anecdotal evidence is never good, and your personal experience of the economy is hardly a full picture. Some area's of this country are doing fantastic, other area's are not doing so well. On the whole, the economy has generally gotten better since Obama took office (as seen in a variety of economic measures), but that doesn't mean you yourself have to be doing better. That's a very self-centered way of looking at things, and I daresay destructive to constructive dialogue.
I'm not trying to come off as self centered. I am merely pointing out what I am seeing in my world around me. I don't believe this country is thriving in too many areas, but I'm not going to war with you over it. So...

But that's why we have the economic data, to see what the country is doing overall. It's not a matter of belief.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2013, 01:00:37 PM »
Anecdotal evidence is never good, and your personal experience of the economy is hardly a full picture. Some area's of this country are doing fantastic, other area's are not doing so well. On the whole, the economy has generally gotten better since Obama took office (as seen in a variety of economic measures), but that doesn't mean you yourself have to be doing better. That's a very self-centered way of looking at things, and I daresay destructive to constructive dialogue.
I'm not trying to come off as self centered. I am merely pointing out what I am seeing in my world around me. I don't believe this country is thriving in too many areas, but I'm not going to war with you over it. So...

But that's why we have the economic data, to see what the country is doing overall. It's not a matter of belief.

This. Even looking at your entire local area is a small part of an enormous puzzle.
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Online El Barto

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2013, 01:03:55 PM »
Both matter. As has been pointed out, macroeconomics is so complex that numbers can be used to suggest anything. Remember back when things were crashing around us and Chimpy's boys kept using the word "gangbusters" in reference to how much ass the US economy was kicking? There's certainly some validity to economic indicators, but they shouldn't be trusted regardless of what you personally see around you.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2013, 01:09:12 PM »
A person can lose his job in the midst of an economic boom.  Hell, an entire plant can close smak in the middle of huge growth.  It is too small a sample to make a judgement on an entire country.  If you want to say your neck of the woods isnt doing well, then your experience is important....but when we are discussing the general economic situation od the whole country, the numbers mean more.
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