Author Topic: "The President should lead"  (Read 2382 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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"The President should lead"
« on: April 18, 2013, 04:12:08 PM »
This is to Republicans, conservatives or anyone else who complains that the President doesn't lead:

What would that look like to you? What would the man have to do, have to say, etc, in order for you to say he's trying to "lead"? I just want to know what it is that people don't think he's doing in this regards, as I've never understood the complaint.


Offline bosk1

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 04:14:50 PM »
I think "lead" in this context means "be conservative" or "not be evil" or "not suck at his job" or some other such synonymous term.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 04:17:56 PM »
So then what would "not sucking at his job" be? Keep in mind, I'm going to keep you strictly what his job as President is, not some evaluation of the general state of the US Government.

Otherwise, you're sorta confirming what I thought: it's impossible for him ot meat that metric, because he's not a conservative. It's not that he can't lead, or that he's not trying to lead, or that he's not a leader, it's that you don't agree with how he's leading or what his goals are. And that's a different statement.

Offline El Barto

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 04:33:56 PM »
Huh. I think the guy's a jackass, but I've been consistently happy with the quantity and quality of his leadership. He knows when to step back and let others do their job, and he knows when to take a more active role.

As it pertains to what people might be bitching about now, I think they want one of those W bullhorn moments like after 911. W was a cheerleader, and that's what he was after 911. He was good at running the pep rally, which is what Americans tend to want. That doesn't seem to be Obama's style, but at the same time, he seems no less genuine in his sincerity. Personally, I prefer calm, cool and deliberate to going out and firing up people passions.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 04:50:38 PM »
I think he's doing a fine job as a leader. He inherited lots of problems. He struggles. But, unlike Bush Jr., he does not embarrass me while representing me before the rest of the world.

Otherwise, you're sorta confirming what I thought: it's impossible for him ot meat that metric, because he's not a conservative.
Leadership has nothing to do with being a conservative in America, whatever that even means. That concept does not even make sense.

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 05:23:02 PM »
I think he's doing a fine job as a leader. He inherited lots of problems. He struggles. But, unlike Bush Jr., he does not embarrass me while representing me before the rest of the world.


Holy Cow we are so opposite :lol The first thing a leader....especially the President doesn't do is spend 4 years blaming everyone else but himself for all the problems. Every president inherits the former presidents 'work'.....Clinton's smoke and mirrors dot com economy burst on Bush Jr.....I don't recall him ever mentioning that. Oh yeah...that's right because he had to near immediately deal with the Muslim world attacking America and our way of life. Obama lost my respect after year one when he was still blaming Bush for everything....and that mantra hasn't changed because if it ain't broke don't fix it.
  You can't go a day without Obama or those he pays to speak for him referencing the fact that they 'inherited' lots of problems. When you run for, and win the Presidency it's because you think you can 'fix' whatever the issue is. I don't think Obama has ever had a real plan...ever....and to me that much is obvious. Obama thought he'd be able to spend his way into history as a great president. The only chance he has at a favorable mention in history is that the revisionists in the media get jobs writing history books.
  One way to earn respect and lead is to not try and deflect every negative thing that happens off of himself but then jump right out there when something positive happens and try to claim credit....cough...cough...Bin Laden


and as far as you believing Obama apologizing at every moment he possible can for America (I won't waste my time inserting pic after pic of him bowing to foreign leaders who HATE us) and how 'bad' we are is in some way 'better' or more admirable than the manner in which Bush did........thats' insane to me and greatly illustrates the difference between you and I.

 As far as the question , what makes a good leader......I think it's someone who is respected by all sides due to their actions and the way they handle themselves, doesn't make continual excuses but finds resolutions and has an obvious love for America. In which, I don't believe Obama has qualified for on any account. I'm just going to stop now...I know this is falling on deaf ears and to be honest I don't think I should care as much as I do what a bunch of relative strangers in an online forum think or believe. It's probably best I return to General Discussion for a while ...I really can't handle this P/R stuff...I get to worked up.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »
Yeah, in all seriousness, while I admit that Obama exhibits a lot of strong leaderhip traits, he demonstrates a lot of weaknesses as well for a lot of reasons that gmillerdrake points out.  And while I certainly don't agree with everything in the above post, it's close enough that I can't be bothered to go line by line.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 05:35:48 PM »
I think he's doing a fine job as a leader. He inherited lots of problems. He struggles. But, unlike Bush Jr., he does not embarrass me while representing me before the rest of the world.


Holy Cow we are so opposite :lol The first thing a leader....especially the President doesn't do is spend 4 years blaming everyone else but himself for all the problems. Every president inherits the former presidents 'work'.....Clinton's smoke and mirrors dot com economy burst on Bush Jr.....I don't recall him ever mentioning that. Oh yeah...that's right because he had to near immediately deal with the Muslim world attacking America and our way of life. Obama lost my respect after year one when he was still blaming Bush for everything....and that mantra hasn't changed because if it ain't broke don't fix it.
  You can't go a day without Obama or those he pays to speak for him referencing the fact that they 'inherited' lots of problems. When you run for, and win the Presidency it's because you think you can 'fix' whatever the issue is. I don't think Obama has ever had a real plan...ever....and to me that much is obvious. Obama thought he'd be able to spend his way into history as a great president. The only chance he has at a favorable mention in history is that the revisionists in the media get jobs writing history books.
  One way to earn respect and lead is to not try and deflect every negative thing that happens off of himself but then jump right out there when something positive happens and try to claim credit....cough...cough...Bin Laden


and as far as you believing Obama apologizing at every moment he possible can for America (I won't waste my time inserting pic after pic of him bowing to foreign leaders who HATE us) and how 'bad' we are is in some way 'better' or more admirable than the manner in which Bush did........thats' insane to me and greatly illustrates the difference between you and I.

 As far as the question , what makes a good leader......I think it's someone who is respected by all sides due to their actions and the way they handle themselves, doesn't make continual excuses but finds resolutions and has an obvious love for America. In which, I don't believe Obama has qualified for on any account. I'm just going to stop now...I know this is falling on deaf ears and to be honest I don't think I should care as much as I do what a bunch of relative strangers in an online forum think or believe. It's probably best I return to General Discussion for a while ...I really can't handle this P/R stuff...I get to worked up.
Wow. If you're interested, I might find a few minutes later to rebut that. I'm no fan of Obama's, but a lot of that was way off the mark.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
Well, I'll try.

1.Obama spent four years talking about how he inherited Bush's problems
He didn't talk about it quite that much, though I will admit that he talked about it a lot. Still, it was true. Granted, Bush didn't create ALL of the problems Obama inherited, he takes blame for a good deal of them.

2. Clinton's economy is due the dotcom bomb
Partly, but that doesn't change the fact that the man's administration balanced the damn budget, which is something Bush and his administration didn't believe in. Remember "debt doesn't matter"?

3. Obama will be historically honored because liberals run the media
Doubtful. Obama will be historically honored for breaking the glass ceiling for people of color in the country. I doubt he'll be mentioned for any other political accomplishments, excect maybe getting Osama. And conservatives write a ton of books, too. You seem to be neglecting that.

4. Obama bows to leaders who hate us
Never got this criticism. Drudge Report drudgery and ignorance foreign ambassadorship at its finest, as far as I'm concerned.

5. Obama tells the world about "how bad we are"
Also not true, but we owe the world some apologies, and need to change our foreign policy. Maybe Obama's not exerting ENOUGH leadership on that front?

6. Good leaders don't make excuses
True, and a relevant criticism of many Obama speeches. But, again, your exaggerating how much Obama actually does it.

Online gmillerdrake

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 06:10:33 PM »
Well, I'll try.

1.Obama spent four years talking about how he inherited Bush's problems
He didn't talk about it quite that much, though I will admit that he talked about it a lot. Still, it was true. Granted, Bush didn't create ALL of the problems Obama inherited, he takes blame for a good deal of them.

2. Clinton's economy is due the dotcom bomb
Partly, but that doesn't change the fact that the man's administration balanced the damn budget, which is something Bush and his administration didn't believe in. Remember "debt doesn't matter"?

3. Obama will be historically honored because liberals run the media
Doubtful. Obama will be historically honored for breaking the glass ceiling for people of color in the country. I doubt he'll be mentioned for any other political accomplishments, excect maybe getting Osama. And conservatives write a ton of books, too. You seem to be neglecting that.

4. Obama bows to leaders who hate us
Never got this criticism. Drudge Report drudgery and ignorance foreign ambassadorship at its finest, as far as I'm concerned.

5. Obama tells the world about "how bad we are"
Also not true, but we owe the world some apologies, and need to change our foreign policy. Maybe Obama's not exerting ENOUGH leadership on that front?

6. Good leaders don't make excuses
True, and a relevant criticism of many Obama speeches. But, again, your exaggerating how much Obama actually does it.
I respect this post and will admit that my distain for Obama probably rivals or is equal to what some liberals feel about Bush....so I do get caught up in exaggerating when I speak about the man for too long because at this point I can't stand to hear his voice or see his face. 
  I'd add only one thing to your 2nd point about Clinton....he balanced the budget due to a large and drastic cut in military spending. For me, someone who believes our National Defense can never be strong or big enough...that aspect of Clinton's balanced budget always bothered me.
  And concerning Clinton....he was the first President I ever voted for. I think he was the last President IMO who really could get people to work together. The polarization that has now engulfed our country began with the hanging chad in Florida and has only continued to grow and become more toxic by the day. I think Regan could get people to work together well as evidenced.....but both Bush and Obama have a special way to attract the 'hate' from the other side.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 06:23:29 PM »
Fair enough post, but a higher defense budget does not equal better national defense. So much of the defense budget supports obsolete cold war infrastructure that's still around well, because. I don't agree that maintaining an expansive and ever-vigilant standing military is a good idea even in principle, but even if I did I think the DoD and other "defense" organizations are just as swollen with inefficiency as any other branch of government. Some kinda of reasonable cuts to defense shouldn't be off the table.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 06:32:29 PM »
As far as not being able to stand looking at the guy, I can't relate. I kinda liked Bush, just hated his policies. I get more that kind of reaction when Rumsfeld or Limbaugh are on screen.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 06:33:22 PM »

Holy Cow we are so opposite :lol The first thing a leader....especially the President doesn't do is spend 4 years blaming everyone else but himself for all the problems. Every president inherits the former presidents 'work'.....Clinton's smoke and mirrors dot com economy burst on Bush Jr.....I don't recall him ever mentioning that. Oh yeah...that's right because he had to near immediately deal with the Muslim world attacking America and our way of life. Obama lost my respect after year one when he was still blaming Bush for everything....and that mantra hasn't changed because if it ain't broke don't fix it.
  You can't go a day without Obama or those he pays to speak for him referencing the fact that they 'inherited' lots of problems. When you run for, and win the Presidency it's because you think you can 'fix' whatever the issue is. I don't think Obama has ever had a real plan...ever....and to me that much is obvious.

You can't drop into a huge economic hole and expect to climb out of quickly, and pointing out that we were in a huge hole isn't an excuse, it's an explanation. Things didn't just reset when Obama took over, and it's ridiculous to blame him for having an accurate historical context. When your asked, "why is unemployment so low," ignoring the financial crisis is inexcusable. Considering at the same time, Obama has put forward plan after plan to stimulate the economy, and I really don't see how this is a valid objection.

He also clearly had a plan (his list of legislative accomplishments is historically impressive); it's just that Republicans had a plan as well. They met the day he got inaugurated to discuss ways to make Obama a one term president, ways to obstruct. From day one. He was never given a chance by Republicans.

Quote
One way to earn respect and lead is to not try and deflect every negative thing that happens off of himself but then jump right out there when something positive happens and try to claim credit....cough...cough...Bin Laden

Obama made a tough decision, by all accounts, and it was him that decided against his generals. It was his decision for the raid to occur, even if the intelligence was available thanks to Bush era tactics. He would have gotten blamed for anything going wrong, so blaming him for taking credit for it going right is hypocritical and silly.

Quote
and as far as you believing Obama apologizing at every moment he possible can for America (I won't waste my time inserting pic after pic of him bowing to foreign leaders who HATE us) and how 'bad' we are is in some way 'better' or more admirable than the manner in which Bush did........thats' insane to me and greatly illustrates the difference between you and I.

Go watch the full video's. He never apologized for America in the way implied, and he, in the same speech, spoke about how great America is, and why he thinks it's so great.


Quote
As far as the question , what makes a good leader......I think it's someone who is respected by all sides due to their actions and the way they handle themselves,

So because one side (establishment Republicans) are very questionably racist (*cough* McConnell *cough*) and because they refuse to work with the President for political reasons, he's a bad leader? That's insane.

Offline bosk1

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2013, 06:53:11 PM »
So because one side (establishment Republicans) are very questionably racist (*cough* McConnell *cough*) and because they refuse to work with the President for political reasons, he's a bad leader? That's insane.

Scheavo, you should know better by now than to label an entire group of people racist.  That doesn't fly here and needs to stop immediately.
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 06:58:16 PM »
Sheavo, I've replied to your post twice now and twice now I've hit the 'home' key and lost it....I'm going to take that as a sign. I know no matter what I type it's not going to be some new revelation to you and help you understand my point....likewise, I'm fairly certain I've heard most of the liberal/democratic playbook you read from and it's not going to sway me. I'd like to just leave it at respectfully disagreeing with you...cool? :biggrin:
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Offline antigoon

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 07:22:41 PM »
Obama going around the world "apologizing" for America is, to me, nothing more than a Mitt Romney talking point that has no basis in reality.

edit: obligatory disclaimer that I'm neither an Obama supporter nor a Democrat.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2013, 08:28:03 PM »
So because one side (establishment Republicans) are very questionably racist (*cough* McConnell *cough*) and because they refuse to work with the President for political reasons, he's a bad leader? That's insane.

Scheavo, you should know better by now than to label an entire group of people racist.  That doesn't fly here and needs to stop immediately.

I never said republicans are racist, or conservatives are racist. I tried to be very  clear in that, so I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. But I was talking literally about the people in office, not the voters. I even pointed to McConnell to try and emphasize that point. I can point to numerous things to support my my claim, and don't intend to make the claim I believe you to think I am making.


Offline bosk1

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2013, 08:50:44 PM »
Okay, you aren't saying it about all conservatives, but you are making the sweeping generalization that all (or at least a general majority) of those in office are.  That's still going too far.  You can't make such an inflammatory accusation like that here.  That's completely inappropriate, just as it would be to label liberal politicians with whatever derogatory slur of choice one might choose.  That's just not okay.  Unless you have personal knowledge of someone burning crosses in your front yard while wearing a white hood, be very careful about throwing around the "racist" label (or any other similarly derogatory labels).  It's easy to forget ourselves and step over the line in these types of discussions, so I'm not issuing an "official" warning (yet).  But let's keep these kinds of discussions on the proper track.
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2013, 08:55:56 PM »
"The President in particular is very much a figurehead he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it."

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2013, 09:01:47 PM »
Okay, you aren't saying it about all conservatives, but you are making the sweeping generalization that all (or at least a general majority) of those in office are.  That's still going too far.  You can't make such an inflammatory accusation like that here.  That's completely inappropriate, just as it would be to label liberal politicians with whatever derogatory slur of choice one might choose.  That's just not okay.  Unless you have personal knowledge of someone burning crosses in your front yard while wearing a white hood, be very careful about throwing around the "racist" label (or any other similarly derogatory labels).  It's easy to forget ourselves and step over the line in these types of discussions, so I'm not issuing an "official" warning (yet).  But let's keep these kinds of discussions on the proper track.

K, but I honestly don't see how it's any worse than calling the President evil, which you have done on several occasions. I apologize for making a hasty generalization



Sheavo, I've replied to your post twice now and twice now I've hit the 'home' key and lost it....I'm going to take that as a sign. I know no matter what I type it's not going to be some new revelation to you and help you understand my point....likewise, I'm fairly certain I've heard most of the liberal/democratic playbook you read from and it's not going to sway me. I'd like to just leave it at respectfully disagreeing with you...cool? :biggrin:

Yes and no. I still want to understand this complaint better, but in several of the cases, I can see where we interpret things differently.


Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2013, 06:43:47 AM »
Okay, you aren't saying it about all conservatives, but you are making the sweeping generalization that all (or at least a general majority) of those in office are.  That's still going too far.  You can't make such an inflammatory accusation like that here.  That's completely inappropriate, just as it would be to label liberal politicians with whatever derogatory slur of choice one might choose.  That's just not okay.  Unless you have personal knowledge of someone burning crosses in your front yard while wearing a white hood, be very careful about throwing around the "racist" label (or any other similarly derogatory labels).  It's easy to forget ourselves and step over the line in these types of discussions, so I'm not issuing an "official" warning (yet).  But let's keep these kinds of discussions on the proper track.

K, but I honestly don't see how it's any worse than calling the President evil, which you have done on several occasions. I apologize for making a hasty generalization

I'd really like clarification on this too. I was under the impression that it's OK to attack arguments, but not people. Like, it'd be OK to say "x part of the Republican platform" or "x Republican policy" is racist, but not "Republicans are racists". Is this true? But then I've seen those "evil" comments Scheavo mentioned piled on the president, and blanketed over organized labor. These comments have often come straight from the horse's mouth, so I'm really not sure  ;D

Personally (@bosk) I definitely get the vibe that Republicans being criticized as racist (let's use "white supremacist"-- dems can promote racism too, in other ways) is a pretty sore spot for you. I'm not sure why, but it's pretty well-known that, between the 30s-80s the racist block of the Democratic Party slowly started moving its tent over to the GOP, to the point where the "solid south" is now completely red, rather than blue. That's not an insult, it's just a fact that people have to deal with. The holdouts of old Confederate culture and southern thinking find better homes among Republicans. I have no doubt that many, if not most, conservatives hold racism in great disdain. But it's naive to suggest that there isn't a considerable wing of white exceptional-ism in the party.

Offline Tick

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2013, 08:04:11 AM »
I think Obama will be revered by many no matter what his legacy becomes. People drank his kool aid and still do. Silly as it may seem, to many he will be remembered as a great president. You wait and see.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2013, 08:16:22 AM »
When it comes to their respective legacies, you guys are over-complicating it. It's not a matter of liberals writing history books or drinking Kool-Aid. It's simply that the masses don't look very deep into things. What people will remember is pretty simple. The economy was in fine shape during the Clinton years. It went completely to shit during Dumbass's term. While the verdict is still out, it does seem to be improving now. People can analyze the circumstances and ascribe blame how they see fit, but the masses will always take the superficial approach. That approach is looking pretty straightforward.

If you want evidence of that, look at Carter's legacy. People don't hate him because he was an asshole or a warmonger. They hate him because the economy tanked on his watch. Bush can expect more of the same.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2013, 08:18:56 AM »
Almost all presidents are revered to some degree, unless they were completely awful and not noteworthy, both as POTUS and afterwards. You've gotta be completely partisan to say there aren't two sides to Obama's ledger.

I don't think he'll be revered particularly greatly, though, except maybe as a Civil Rights hero, just by virtue of being the first black president. In that case, though, it's not really about him, but society on the whole, and how we've become better  at least some ways, and how what Lincoln started is finally coming to completion.

That, coupled with other Civil Rights causes he's championed and committed to doing something about.

That's the problem with Obama, really. In a time of peace and prosperity, he'd flourish as a domestic leader who inspired the nation to be its best self. As a wartime president, he's not very good. That's the total opposite of Bush, who was really only ever able to pull the nation together against the backdrop of some common threat.

Obama's promise was "hope" and "change", to end a decade of war and turn the nation inward and invest in America again. It would have been great, it just didn't happen.

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2013, 08:54:00 AM »
When it comes to their respective legacies, you guys are over-complicating it. It's not a matter of liberals writing history books or drinking Kool-Aid. It's simply that the masses don't look very deep into things. What people will remember is pretty simple. The economy was in fine shape during the Clinton years. It went completely to shit during Dumbass's term. While the verdict is still out, it does seem to be improving now. People can analyze the circumstances and ascribe blame how they see fit, but the masses will always take the superficial approach. That approach is looking pretty straightforward.

If you want evidence of that, look at Carter's legacy. People don't hate him because he was an asshole or a warmonger. They hate him because the economy tanked on his watch. Bush can expect more of the same.
The place I don't agree at all is the notion that that things are improving. I think things get worse every year not better. Whatever data being fed to us is bogus.
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2013, 10:09:27 AM »
When it comes to their respective legacies, you guys are over-complicating it. It's not a matter of liberals writing history books or drinking Kool-Aid. It's simply that the masses don't look very deep into things. What people will remember is pretty simple. The economy was in fine shape during the Clinton years. It went completely to shit during Dumbass's term. While the verdict is still out, it does seem to be improving now. People can analyze the circumstances and ascribe blame how they see fit, but the masses will always take the superficial approach. That approach is looking pretty straightforward.

If you want evidence of that, look at Carter's legacy. People don't hate him because he was an asshole or a warmonger. They hate him because the economy tanked on his watch. Bush can expect more of the same.
The place I don't agree at all is the notion that that things are improving. I think things get worse every year not better. Whatever data being fed to us is bogus.

You think the economic data being fed to us is "bogus"?

Wow.
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2013, 10:12:39 AM »
It is.

But the worse economic data we were fed before Obama was bogus, too.

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 10:13:30 AM »
What data is bogus?
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 10:19:15 AM »
They have all sorts of ways of manipulating the data to make it look better than it really is. I know I'm being "that guy" here, but I suggest googling "Real Unemployment Rate".

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 10:29:30 AM »
They have all sorts of ways of manipulating the data to make it look better than it really is. I know I'm being "that guy" here, but I suggest googling "Real Unemployment Rate".

Listen, I work in finance and economics, so I understand what you are saying.  In general, you are saying the unemployment rate we are "fed" is different than the "real" unemployment rate.  I understand that.  But regardless of how they calculate it, it is still calculated in a consistent manner, which will either show a decline or improvement.  And that is what we are talking about....is there an improvement? 

Is there an improvement in the "real" unemployment rate?
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2013, 10:34:09 AM »
No, I'm agreeing with Tick that the numbers we're being fed are bogus.

I'm also trying to point out to Tick that we were fed the same bogus numbers before Obama, too.

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2013, 10:39:42 AM »
I'm approaching it the same way the masses I've criticized are. I'm basing my opinion on what I see. From my perspective things seem to be getting (ever so slightly) better. That seems to be what the public at large is thinking, as well.

This is strictly from the economic front, mind you. On the social side of things, we're continuing the same downward spiral that Bush's sorry ass started us down.

Still, my hunch is that what I said remains true. Whether it's deserved or not, the historical view of the last few presidents will reflect that we tanked hard under Bush and recovered (or at least started the recovery) under Obama. That's what people will remember.
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2013, 10:42:04 AM »
No, I'm agreeing with Tick that the numbers we're being fed are bogus.

I'm also trying to point out to Tick that we were fed the same bogus numbers before Obama, too.

But they arent "bogus"

They are a different calculation or interpretation.  If that calculation is done consistently, we will be able to see a decline or improvement with either approach.  My point was simply regarding if there is improvement.
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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2013, 10:43:21 AM »
Muslim world attacking America and our way of life.
I can't even begin to describe how wrong this reasoning is.

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Re: "The President should lead"
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2013, 10:45:12 AM »
No, I'm agreeing with Tick that the numbers we're being fed are bogus.

I'm also trying to point out to Tick that we were fed the same bogus numbers before Obama, too.

But they arent "bogus"

They are a different calculation or interpretation.  If that calculation is done consistently, we will be able to see a decline or improvement with either approach.  My point was simply regarding if there is improvement.

How are they not misleading, though?