Author Topic: Its Mental Illness Not Grape Jelly  (Read 31837 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #525 on: September 18, 2013, 10:36:17 PM »
Really, I should change something I wrote: "than allowing more and more people to own a gun." What I mean there is promoting the idea that people should have such guns on school property or that such people are going to be a solid defense against gun violence.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #526 on: September 18, 2013, 11:19:37 PM »
I'm not saying they'd be a "solid defense" against anything. I'm saying that there's not really any reason why properly vetted, law abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to carry guns wherever they are, which includes a school. IMO, they probably stand a better chance of improving a bad situation by being an armed target rather than an unarmed one.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #527 on: September 19, 2013, 02:09:20 PM »
Damn, the more you read about this guy, the more this thread title is applicable; as opposed to the guns are scary topic it's been stuck on. I normally tend to take the "shit happens" approach to crazy people. They're like the weather, as far as I'm concerned. But man, this guy was completely apeshit for quite a long while. This thing really should have never happened. As soon as he told the police who arrested him that he was hearing voices in his head because the government was transmitting them into him, that should have been the end of this.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #528 on: September 19, 2013, 07:10:08 PM »
Damn, the more you read about this guy, the more this thread title is applicable; as opposed to the guns are scary topic it's been stuck on. I normally tend to take the "shit happens" approach to crazy people. They're like the weather, as far as I'm concerned. But man, this guy was completely apeshit for quite a long while. This thing really should have never happened. As soon as he told the police who arrested him that he was hearing voices in his head because the government was transmitting them into him, that should have been the end of this.

I have a small theory on why this guy was allowed to continue with his clearance and 'slipped' through the cracks.....and I know this is going to get me lambasted here in P/R but what the heck.
  The Ft. Hood shooting should have never gotten to the point of Hassan shooting up Ft. Hood because of the papers he wrote, the speeches he gave and demeanor he portrayed towards Americans...but it did for the plain and simple fact he was Muslim and no on wanted to stir the pot and take any heat for disciplining a Muslim for fear of offending 'them'....same thing here but because this guy was black. Had either of them been white I'd suggest at minimum their clearances would have been revoked. This shooting and the Ft. Hood shooting happened because of the over sensitive, politically correct environment we find ourselves living in.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #529 on: September 19, 2013, 07:59:05 PM »
I suggest you ask Metty how many shits the government gives about upsetting Muslims. The political correctness theory would hold a lot more water if this country as a whole hadn't relegated them to vermin status 12 years ago.

As for Hassan, he lived in (and served) a country that allows you to show your dissent by making speeches, writing papers and showing ill-will towards citizens. Common sense suggests that he probably shouldn't be serving in the active military, but as I recall, that's exactly what he wanted. Just a theory on my part, but my guess is that when they decided to ship him off to the sandbox, it was probably more of a punitive move than political correctness.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #530 on: September 19, 2013, 10:10:30 PM »
Or how much the government cares about targeting black people. If anything, being black makes you more of a target for everything legal. According to this same theory, shouldn't blacks get away with drug use more often than white people, because people are afraid of the stereotyping and offensive nature that comes along with this?

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #531 on: September 19, 2013, 10:56:12 PM »
Charging someone with a crime that can be proven in court, like drug use, is very different than suggesting that someone shouldn't get clearance because of things they said or the way they acted or anything else that might raise a red flag while not being a provable crime.  Given how often the race card gets played in general, I suspect a lot of people don't want to deal with the "You're only saying that because I'm black" backlash (especially from cretins like Al Sharpton), so they say nothing, which is the point I think Gary was making.  It's impossible to know if that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. 


Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #532 on: September 19, 2013, 11:51:51 PM »
Charging someone with a crime that can be proven in court, like drug use, is very different than suggesting that someone shouldn't get clearance because of things they said or the way they acted or anything else that might raise a red flag while not being a provable crime.  Given how often the race card gets played in general, I suspect a lot of people don't want to deal with the "You're only saying that because I'm black" backlash (especially from cretins like Al Sharpton), so they say nothing, which is the point I think Gary was making.  It's impossible to know if that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. 
It sounds like you're referring to Hassan, who was actually whiter than I am. Personally, I'm of the opinion that had he been a Christian, he probably would have gotten the CO status he wanted. Instead, they decided to send him off to Afghanistan to see the carnage first hand. I'm not defending his actions. I'm just pointing out that the brass really made a bad call in how to handle him, and I don't think it was at all PC related.

If you were referring to the more recent guy, he never should have been released from custody; much less retained his security clearance. Still, that seems like colossal acts of incompetence from numerous agencies. Not political correctness. And since when does anybody give a fuck about Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson? Hell, even when they're right, they're dismissed as crazy and irrelevant. I can't imagine anybody being concerned about their reactions. Lawsuits are a different story, but you can blame that on the lawyers.

Personally, I've always found the whole PC run amok thing to be a pretty weak Republican whining point. I'm profoundly politically incorrect, and can't stand PC'ness in general, but the Republicans always seem a bit desperate to latch onto it anytime something goes amiss. Seems like more obstructionism to me. Just another issue where one side claimed a position to make the other look bad.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #533 on: September 20, 2013, 08:24:30 AM »
Charging someone with a crime that can be proven in court, like drug use, is very different than suggesting that someone shouldn't get clearance because of things they said or the way they acted or anything else that might raise a red flag while not being a provable crime.  Given how often the race card gets played in general, I suspect a lot of people don't want to deal with the "You're only saying that because I'm black" backlash (especially from cretins like Al Sharpton), so they say nothing, which is the point I think Gary was making.  It's impossible to know if that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. 
It sounds like you're referring to Hassan, who was actually whiter than I am. Personally, I'm of the opinion that had he been a Christian, he probably would have gotten the CO status he wanted. Instead, they decided to send him off to Afghanistan to see the carnage first hand. I'm not defending his actions. I'm just pointing out that the brass really made a bad call in how to handle him, and I don't think it was at all PC related.

If you were referring to the more recent guy, he never should have been released from custody; much less retained his security clearance. Still, that seems like colossal acts of incompetence from numerous agencies. Not political correctness. And since when does anybody give a fuck about Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson? Hell, even when they're right, they're dismissed as crazy and irrelevant. I can't imagine anybody being concerned about their reactions. Lawsuits are a different story, but you can blame that on the lawyers.

Personally, I've always found the whole PC run amok thing to be a pretty weak Republican whining point. I'm profoundly politically incorrect, and can't stand PC'ness in general, but the Republicans always seem a bit desperate to latch onto it anytime something goes amiss. Seems like more obstructionism to me. Just another issue where one side claimed a position to make the other look bad.


Agree completely with the bolded point.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #534 on: September 20, 2013, 08:30:21 AM »
Too bad I am not a Republican.

Barto, plenty of people still follow Sharpton and Jackson, and they are the kings of playing the race card, so if you want to talk obstructionism, it can start with those guys.  Those clowns actually hurt blacks more than they help them, which is unfortunate. 

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #535 on: September 20, 2013, 09:33:50 AM »
Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont. The only people I see playing the race card are you and GMD

Offline bosk1

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #536 on: September 20, 2013, 10:04:36 AM »
Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont.

Valid point, but:
1.  Most people not caring what they say is, unfortunately, not the same as all people not caring what they say.  Obviously, there are a number of people who do care, as evidenced by the fact that they continue to have an audience.
2.  Most people not caring what they say also has little to do with still not wanting to do things to be the subject of what they say.  In the abstract, I literally could not care less about what either of those men have to say.  I never pay attention to them at all.  However, if I said or did something to get on their radar, and they were publicly talking about me, I certainly would care about the fact that they were talking about me on a national stage, and so would my employer and others who know me. 

So for both of those reasons, casually brushing Sharpton and Jackson (and others like them) as irrelevant misses the point.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #537 on: September 20, 2013, 11:33:50 AM »
Trying to stay off the radar of a pair of grandstanding loudmouths is one thing. However, I'd suggest that if you're actually giving that consideration, then you're probably also looking at a bigger picture which suggests that committing gross acts of negligence that might well get people killed and you sued is probably not a better option.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #538 on: September 20, 2013, 12:20:35 PM »
Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont. The only people I see playing the race card are you and GMD

It's all a matter of opinion. Whether you agree with what Barry bolded from EB's post or not....it's opinion. 'I' believe the atmosphere of political correctness in order not to offend anyone is out of control and is fairly evident but it's no surprise that Barry and those that share his political persuasion dont see it that way. They are both opinions associated with opposite political spectrums.

 My initial post was merely an attempt to provide some sort of reason why this guy was allowed to maintain his clearance after demonstrating he shouldn't have. Was my assertion correct? No one will ever know.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #539 on: September 20, 2013, 04:23:45 PM »
Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont.

Valid point, but:
1.  Most people not caring what they say is, unfortunately, not the same as all people not caring what they say.  Obviously, there are a number of people who do care, as evidenced by the fact that they continue to have an audience.
2.  Most people not caring what they say also has little to do with still not wanting to do things to be the subject of what they say.  In the abstract, I literally could not care less about what either of those men have to say.  I never pay attention to them at all.  However, if I said or did something to get on their radar, and they were publicly talking about me, I certainly would care about the fact that they were talking about me on a national stage, and so would my employer and others who know me. 

So for both of those reasons, casually brushing Sharpton and Jackson (and others like them) as irrelevant misses the point.

And I really fail to see how this applies to the current discussion. If we're talking national politics, or anything that could ever garner national attention, then there might be some tiny nugget of truth in the idea. But when were talking about some random dude getting a gun, the farthest thing from the discussion is Sharpton or Jackson - especially given their position on gun's.

Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont. The only people I see playing the race card are you and GMD

 My initial post was merely an attempt to provide some sort of reason why this guy was allowed to maintain his clearance after demonstrating he shouldn't have. Was my assertion correct? No one will ever know.

But there's a much more rational answer, and one that doesn't require person after person demonstrating a severe lack of intelligent thought. The system is broken, and it's why there's many, many people out there who want to reform the system and make sure guns stay in the hands of people who can responsibly use them. Your assertion that this if this guy was white, he wouldn't have had the clearance, goes smack in the face of the actual systemic problems in our society, and can't explain numerous other incidents where the system has failed.

Charging someone with a crime that can be proven in court, like drug use, is very different than suggesting that someone shouldn't get clearance because of things they said or the way they acted or anything else that might raise a red flag while not being a provable crime.  Given how often the race card gets played in general, I suspect a lot of people don't want to deal with the "You're only saying that because I'm black" backlash (especially from cretins like Al Sharpton), so they say nothing, which is the point I think Gary was making.  It's impossible to know if that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

But how and why do those black people get charged with a crime in the first place? Because they were stereotyped by law enforcement. If the system is really so concerned about not offending black people, then procedures like stop and frisk wouldn't target them in such extremely unproportional amounts.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #540 on: September 20, 2013, 04:45:46 PM »

Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont. The only people I see playing the race card are you and GMD

 My initial post was merely an attempt to provide some sort of reason why this guy was allowed to maintain his clearance after demonstrating he shouldn't have. Was my assertion correct? No one will ever know.

But there's a much more rational answer, and one that doesn't require person after person demonstrating a severe lack of intelligent thought. The system is broken, and it's why there's many, many people out there who want to reform the system and make sure guns stay in the hands of people who can responsibly use them. Your assertion theory that this if this guy was white, he wouldn't have had the clearance, goes smack in the face of the actual systemic problems in our society, and can't explain numerous other incidents where the system has failed.


I was suggesting a possible reason this guy was allowed to maintain his clearance. Never said I firmly believe that was why....any other comments I've made about how PC things are (in my mind) are a general statement.
  Fact is, that this is going to happen again and again because Mental Health diagnosis is protected by Doctor/Patient confidentiality. No background check will reveal anyone's existing, previous Mental Health condition.
  This situation was a failure at a management level(IMO) and that is why I hypothesized that him being black could have had something to do with it. Just management avoiding a 'I was fired/let go/etc because I'm black' scenario.....
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #541 on: September 20, 2013, 04:59:50 PM »
And again, I would suggest that if that were the case it was more about fear of expensive litigation than some misguided attempt to not upset black people. I think even that's a real reach when compared to the likelihood of general incompetence.

I'll also point out that doctor/patient confidentiality A: doesn't apply here, and B: wouldn't apply elsewhere since if there's any threat to others the Dr. is obligated to drop a dime.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #542 on: September 20, 2013, 05:21:22 PM »
And again, I would suggest that if that were the case it was more about fear of expensive litigation than some misguided attempt to not upset black people. I think even that's a real reach when compared to the likelihood of general incompetence.

I'll also point out that doctor/patient confidentiality A: doesn't apply here, and B: wouldn't apply elsewhere since if there's any threat to others the Dr. is obligated to drop a dime.

Why doesn't apply here?

And I was more referring to a general background check isn't going to reveal your medical history, either mental or physical. It's just going to show law violations basically.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #543 on: September 20, 2013, 05:25:24 PM »

Do you know anyone who cares what they say? I sure dont. The only people I see playing the race card are you and GMD

 My initial post was merely an attempt to provide some sort of reason why this guy was allowed to maintain his clearance after demonstrating he shouldn't have. Was my assertion correct? No one will ever know.

But there's a much more rational answer, and one that doesn't require person after person demonstrating a severe lack of intelligent thought. The system is broken, and it's why there's many, many people out there who want to reform the system and make sure guns stay in the hands of people who can responsibly use them. Your assertion theory that this if this guy was white, he wouldn't have had the clearance, goes smack in the face of the actual systemic problems in our society, and can't explain numerous other incidents where the system has failed.


I was suggesting a possible reason this guy was allowed to maintain his clearance. Never said I firmly believe that was why....any other comments I've made about how PC things are (in my mind) are a general statement.

Um, so I bolded your use of assertion, just to clarify. I was careful to use the same word you used.

I'll let eb respond to the other points you made.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #544 on: September 20, 2013, 05:32:58 PM »
Um, so I bolded your use of assertion, just to clarify. I was careful to use the same word you used.


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I'm not trying to make a major issue out of this......again, only offered the theory in an attempt to provide a possible reason why this guys clearance wasn't revoked.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #545 on: September 20, 2013, 06:15:50 PM »
And again, I would suggest that if that were the case it was more about fear of expensive litigation than some misguided attempt to not upset black people. I think even that's a real reach when compared to the likelihood of general incompetence.

I'll also point out that doctor/patient confidentiality A: doesn't apply here, and B: wouldn't apply elsewhere since if there's any threat to others the Dr. is obligated to drop a dime.

Why doesn't apply here?
I wasn't aware that he ever saw a shrink. I suppose that the MD at the VA ER might have been able to diagnose him as schizo, but that's kind of a dicey area. If I'm mistaken about the shrink, by all means let me know.

Truth be told, I think tinkering with doctor/patient privileged info is pretty risky, and probably doesn't weigh out in favor of public safety. Just the allegation that you're nuts is a stigma that will seriously fuck up your life. Probably the next worst thing to being labeled a chester. If doctors were required to report every single concern that person might be off their nut, I suspect you'd see far, far more instances of people having their lives wrongly wrecked than the number of genuinely crazy and armed people slipping through the cracks.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #546 on: September 20, 2013, 06:39:26 PM »
Every article I've read just says 'history of mental illness' without specifying, and that he did have an arrest record. It does say in the weeks leading up to the shooting he sought treatment for insomnia and approached police for help with 'the voices in his head'.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #547 on: September 20, 2013, 07:39:44 PM »
Um, so I bolded your use of assertion, just to clarify. I was careful to use the same word you used.


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I'm not trying to make a major issue out of this......again, only offered the theory in an attempt to provide a possible reason why this guys clearance wasn't revoked.

Well... okay... but only becuase you referenced Seinfeld.

Truth be told, I think tinkering with doctor/patient privileged info is pretty risky, and probably doesn't weigh out in favor of public safety. Just the allegation that you're nuts is a stigma that will seriously fuck up your life. Probably the next worst thing to being labeled a chester. If doctors were required to report every single concern that person might be off their nut, I suspect you'd see far, far more instances of people having their lives wrongly wrecked than the number of genuinely crazy and armed people slipping through the cracks.
But is there any real reason to tinkering with doctor patient confidentiality? As you already mentioned, it doesn't apply to instances where a person is believed to be a threat to themselves or other people. And, is it a breach of confidentiatly if the actual diagnosis and treatments, etc, aren't discussed? A gun dealer could just recieve a do not sell order, with no specifications as to why. It could be very very unspecific in the database even.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 08:07:08 PM by Scheavo »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #548 on: September 20, 2013, 07:55:05 PM »
I don't think keeping that info confidential is remotely possible in this day and age. Who can and who can't buy a weapon will be public knowledge.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #549 on: September 20, 2013, 08:15:00 PM »
That's irrelevant if why they can't buy a weapon isn't. But I also don't see why it's assumed that would be public knowledge. I don't see how this differs from the situation we're already in, where medical records and such are often in electronic form, and should thus be suspectible to the same kind of problems in determining who can and cant buy a gun.

I mean, let's be honest here, someone who is mentally ill enough to not be trusted with a gun isn't going to fool anybody about their sanity. It's not as if this guy, or Loughner, were really going to be acting like your normal person. It's not as if people are suggesting anyone whos ever diagnosed with any sort of mental illness can't buy a gun. But clearly, there are some people, who for mental health reasons, shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun.


Offline KevShmev

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #550 on: September 20, 2013, 09:09:52 PM »

Charging someone with a crime that can be proven in court, like drug use, is very different than suggesting that someone shouldn't get clearance because of things they said or the way they acted or anything else that might raise a red flag while not being a provable crime.  Given how often the race card gets played in general, I suspect a lot of people don't want to deal with the "You're only saying that because I'm black" backlash (especially from cretins like Al Sharpton), so they say nothing, which is the point I think Gary was making.  It's impossible to know if that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

But how and why do those black people get charged with a crime in the first place? Because they were stereotyped by law enforcement. If the system is really so concerned about not offending black people, then procedures like stop and frisk wouldn't target them in such extremely unproportional amounts.

Wait, are you suggesting that all blacks who get arrested were so because they were stereotyped by law enforcement, not because they actually committed a crime?

As for stop and frisk, I found it interesting to hear a stat a while back that said that most blacks in the areas where stop and frisks happen are in FAVOR of the procedure, because they are often done in the most dangerous areas of cities, which often happen to be predominantly black, and many of the law-abiding blacks in those areas want their areas safer, so they are all for stop and frisk. 

In other words, the argument could be made that blacks are targeted way more than whites, Latinos, Asians, etc. because the areas that are often targeted the most are high-crime areas that are largely populated by blacks.  I am not saying that some cops do not unfairly target blacks, cause you bet your ass some of them day, and they should not, but you have to take other factors into account when addressing stop and frisk as a whole.  As usual, it is never black and white, no pun intended. :)

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #551 on: September 20, 2013, 11:02:19 PM »
Hey Kev, I responded in the  chat thread, cause after writing my response, I realized it had nothing to do with the threat topic.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #552 on: September 20, 2013, 11:09:04 PM »
Turns out this is largely a moot point. One of the prohibitive provisions of NICS is a history of psych problems, and because it was instituted back when we were a free country, it includes quite a few privacy provisions. Not a perfect system, but largely adequate. Loughner fell between the cracks, but that's occasionally going to happen. Repairing those cracks would have required a provision stating that the manger of a Quiznos has the authority to commit a person to a loony bin based on their employment history. Probably not a real good idea.

As for new maniac, I'm not aware of him getting any psychological treatment. I'm familiar with his visits to the VA ER, and it seems like they dropped the ball. I'm also aware that Jonny contacted his employer regarding his mental state after a recent arrest, and they dismissed the concerns, as well. Seems to me that the ER Doc probably could have remanded him for whatever their 5150 provision is, and opted to give him some Ambian instead. Bad call.
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Offline theliloutkast

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #553 on: September 21, 2013, 01:32:28 AM »
I think anyone who thinks you have to be mentally abnormal to commit a mass shooting either: a) doesn't understand mental illness' and/or b) can't accept that perfectly sane humans have been killing perfectly normal humans since the dawn of time and there is no corollary evidence to suggest one has to be mentally disturbed.

Also, by how we define abnormal behavior doing something like committing a mass shooting is subject for diagnosis of some sort. So, really, it's going to go down that way officially regardless.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Its Mentall Illness Not Guns
« Reply #554 on: September 21, 2013, 10:05:17 PM »
Seeing the misspelling in the thread title makes me wonder whether there's a band called "metal illness".

EDIT: Wtf, nobody has used this?!
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."