DT lyrics discussion

[Perpetual Change]

Let's discuss this:

I'm not going to get too embroiled in this, cos I've had this conversation a few times before, and I don't know that I've got much to say that I haven't already said - but I basically agree with the Great Pretender and wanted to quickly lend my view. That said, I'm feeling a bit monosyllabic right now, so I'm just going to copy and paste from an old thread. I hope everyone's okay with this.

I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

I think why people like JM lyrics is cuz he writes "cryptic" lyrics in that they give the listener breathing room to interpret them how they want.  Kevin Moore wrote the same way.  Most of the other guys write "literal" lyrics that are just so obvious what the song is about and it really stifles any opportunity for the listener to have a personal connection unless they can directly relate to them.

I broadly agree with Lord of the Strings, but I do like it when JM contributes simply because it adds another voice to the band.

I do think John's lyrics are a little samey, though, and they threaten to become word salad in places. They've got pleasant imagery, and they're broadly uplifting, but I think he's a good lyricist with his own strengths and flaws just like any of the others. I also think that as he writes so sparingly, we don't see as much of the weakness or the repetition as we have and do with other lyricists. If Myung was writing seven songs per album and Petrucci was writing one every four years(ish) I don't think the band's lyrics would be any better. Again, just different strengths and weaknesses. Same goes for Kev! Perfectly good writer, interesting stuff to say and he expresses it well, but he's not exceptional.

Honestly, my least favourite DT lyricist? Early-90s Petrucci. It's pleasant, but it's... just nonsense, isn't it? Even he couldn't tell you what Under a Glass Moon is about. Much better nowadays. Misunderstood is, in my (possibly controversial, possibly not!) opinion, the band's finest lyrical moment. It's the balance. It's evocative, plenty of images, parallels, but it's also close enough to be relatable. Makes you feel something. "Never use a long word when a short one will do" - George Orwell! Wrapping your point in layer upon layer of abstract imagery and metaphor isn't a good way to connect to your listener. UaGM sounds pretty enough, but I couldn't be more disconnected if I tried.

This also goes for a lot of fan favourites - Voices, Scarred. I'm glad someone else is getting something from them. That's grand, I'm glad they're as popular as they are, and it's clearly me who's missing out. But I am missing out. I'm just getting a list of metaphors. Not cogent, there's no connection - Voices goes from a spider to an angel to an old man to a newsstand. It doesn't take me anywhere. I mean, yes, it takes me to a pool, and a window, and a newsagents, but that's not a journey, that's a slideshow. There's no comment, it's just "look at this spider." Erratic. Whatever it's alluding to, whatever statement it's making, it's not made within the song. I find it a bit - whisper it - dull!

Not that I'm saying diverse imagery can't work. Petrucci sticks with the disparate image thing for pretty much his whole career, but it's fair to say he improves as he goes along. Images feel connected in later songs. "Playing a lion being led to a cage, I turn from a thief to a beggar, from a god to God, save me," not only have you got a strong biblical imagery, but there's a very clear vein of strength-to-weakness. I'm sure there's something like that in Voices, too, but you have to dig pretty deep, and possibly double check in an encyclopedia. The song's not making the statement.

Right, now, someone say something more controversial so nobody reads this! Bring back Mike Portnoy! John Myung looks better in white! David Prater was the only man who ever understood what Dream Theater really means!

[robwebster]

Crikey - that's three threads, that post's seen, now. What a veteran.

Wise decision, though. Very good call. Hello, new thread! Sorry I'm not yet impressed by Voices.

Here's the old thread, if anyone's interested. From about the moment the discussion starts. It's a good conversation, and I wish I had more to contribute at the moment than recycling old posts. But dialogue's more interesting than a monologue, so - who knows! Hopefully, shortly. After I've had my coffee.

[MirzekDT]

I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

JP was always helping JMX with lyrics, he was always changing some lines to fit better in context of songs and melodies, it was always like that and BAI wasn't different. JMX just wanted JP to take credit this time. This was said in interview by JP or JMX not sure who and I'm surprised nobody remembers it since I've seen this comment for a third time in short period of time and nobody responded how it really is.

[robwebster]

I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

JP was always helping JMX with lyrics, he was always changing some lines to fit better in context of songs and melodies, it was always like that and BAI wasn't different. JMX just wanted JP to take credit this time. This was said in interview by JP or JMX not sure who and I'm surprised nobody remembers it since I've seen this comment for a third time in short period of time and nobody responded how it really is.

Oh! Actually! One more thing!

Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote.

I belieeeeve JP (or MP or KM) helped write all of them. The stuff we all know - John Myung would give them the lyrics in a more freeform style, and his bandmates rewrote them into a shape that fit the song. That's quite a heavy duty operation, so they stopped after a while.

I've got a hunch that, rather than John Myung changing his working style, they rather agreed that his cohorts would receive a credit for their rewrites. Which is fair. Not only is a co-credit acknowledgment for a service that would've otherwise been invisible, but editing something and putting words they didn't say into an author's mouth can feel a bit like vandalism at times. What if you're making it worse, or detracting from the point they were trying to make?! Add your name to the credits, and you take joint responsibility.

Hunch! But I'd put a small amount of money on being right. I suppose that's true of any hunch, though.

q:

[BlackInk]

I remember that, because I'm a good boy.

[?]

This thread died already? Anyway, I'll add my 0.02$, since I didn't voice my opinion on the more abstract lyrics in that thread from 3 months ago.

I think the beauty of JP's lyrics from the earlier albums and JM's lyrics overall is that they leave a lot of room for interpretation. I like lyrics that can be interpreted in many different ways and make you think "what was that line supposed to mean?". Rob talked about the imagery in Voices and how it goes nowhere, but I think it's supposed to create a kind of scenery - even if lines like "Judas on the ceiling / The devil in my bed" don't necessarily have an important part in the story the song tells, they conjure up images and visions and may have some hidden deeper meaning. I mean, wouldn't novels be boring if they were 100% dialogue with no descriptions of the surrounding environment at all?

I'm not saying that the best lyrics sound like they were written by an ADHD patient on an acid trip, but using lots of different imagery can make lyrics more colorful and multidimensional. The Count of Tuscany doesn't have bad lyrics, but it's a very straightforward story and after you've read through it once, you know exactly what it's about. Songs like Innocence Faded need to be listened to a lot of times before you can make up some kind of interpretation and that's why I like them better. That said, I think the best lyrics are something between the two extremes - songs like 6:00 and Lie have lots of metaphors and imagery, but you can also relate to them depending on your interpretation, and that's not something you can say about Voices or UAGM (unless you're scizophrenic ).

Now that I think about it, this post is too long and aimless, but I wanted to share my opinion, so apologies for wasting your time!

[hefdaddy42]

You had me until

The Count of Tuscany doesn't have bad lyrics

[?]

They're pretty weak by DT standards, but I've heard songs with worse lyrics, even by DT themselves (see: Constant Motion, Never Enough).

[hefdaddy42]

Saying "I've heard worse" does not equal "They're not bad."

[?]

They would be bad if they ruined the song for me, but they don't, although they are quite overliteral and goofy.

[Perpetual Change]

They don't ruin the song for me, but it definitely feels like they're trying pretty damn hard.

[hefdaddy42]

They don't ruin the song for me, either, but that doesn't stop me from saying they are pretty bad.

[BlackInk]

(see: Constant Motion, Never Enough).

Two songs that has both better and more meaningful lyrics than The Count of Tuscany. Even though the songs themselves aren't as good.

[Cable]

This thread died already? Anyway, I'll add my 0.02$, since I didn't voice my opinion on the more abstract lyrics in that thread from 3 months ago.

I think the beauty of JP's lyrics from the earlier albums and JM's lyrics overall is that they leave a lot of room for interpretation. I like lyrics that can be interpreted in many different ways and make you think "what was that line supposed to mean?". Rob talked about the imagery in Voices and how it goes nowhere, but I think it's supposed to create a kind of scenery - even if lines like "Judas on the ceiling / The devil in my bed" don't necessarily have an important part in the story the song tells, they conjure up images and visions and may have some hidden deeper meaning. I mean, wouldn't novels be boring if they were 100% dialogue with no descriptions of the surrounding environment at all?

I'm not saying that the best lyrics sound like they were written by an ADHD patient on an acid trip, but using lots of different imagery can make lyrics more colorful and multidimensional. The Count of Tuscany doesn't have bad lyrics, but it's a very straightforward story and after you've read through it once, you know exactly what it's about. Songs like Innocence Faded need to be listened to a lot of times before you can make up some kind of interpretation and that's why I like them better. That said, I think the best lyrics are something between the two extremes - songs like 6:00 and Lie have lots of metaphors and imagery, but you can also relate to them depending on your interpretation, and that's not something you can say about Voices or UAGM (unless you're scizophrenic ).

Now that I think about it, this post is too long and aimless, but I wanted to share my opinion, so apologies for wasting your time!

Agreed mostly. Voices and Scarred are rife with so many references and be taken a few ways. And as you said, imagery. Same obviously for JM. Stuff like TCOT, CM or TBOT leaves no room for alternate opinions or vivid imagery, just clear cut story.

And I think KM, then JM until he was uh, forced to stop is they had an influence on JPs and MPs lyrics. When those two left and stopped respectfully with lyrics, I believe you can mostly see a gradual decline in lyrics and imagery in them.

And of course thus far I believe when JM writes again, ADTOE is superior lyrically to at least SC and BC&SL.

But I'm not schizophrenic, and relate totally to UAGM and Voices. Bakerman, trascriber extrodanaire thought UAGM was about a drunk proposal, and I agree there. And Voices to me is about ones struggle with religion and sexuality and their conflicting messages.

[Ben_Jamin]

What kills a song for me isn't the lyrics but the way its sung, TCOT is a good example, the verses sound as if they're trying to be tough and metal.  Most times I listen to the melodies not the lyrics,  the lyrics are an added bonus.

The type I enjoy are thought provoking, uplifting lyrics. But I don't mind simple straight foward lyrics.

TCOT's chorus can be relateable by it being about someplace you don't know and are scared what they might do pr show you. Thats what I feel TCOT is about.

[TheAtliator]

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=37129.0 I just made this thread as my Awake interperataion/explanation

[Sycsa]

Has anyone noticed that Mike uses 'day' way too often in TBOT?

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Something that I don't get is, if JP wrote ANTR, how did MP end up cookie monstering it? Like, do we know if JP had melodic lyrics for that part at first and then MP decided it would be better with the growling? Or is it possible that JP intended there to be growling there? (I know, very unlikely)

[TheAtliator]

Something that I don't get is, if JP wrote ANTR, how did MP end up cookie monstering it? Like, do we know if JP had melodic lyrics for that part at first and then MP decided it would be better with the growling? Or is it possible that JP intended there to be growling there? (I know, very unlikely)

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2352022.aspx You're welcome

[bosk1]

Something that I don't get is, if JP wrote ANTR, how did MP end up cookie monstering it? Like, do we know if JP had melodic lyrics for that part at first and then MP decided it would be better with the growling? Or is it possible that JP intended there to be growling there? (I know, very unlikely)

He doesn't "growl" it.  It's just kind of an aggressive singing.  But, yes, there is a pretty detailed explanation that Mike gave on MP.com that was quoted here.  I'm sure if you use the search feature, you can find it.  But in short, it was originally designed as a clean section.  Because the music is so aggressive, Mike thought it would sound cool with more aggressive vocals, so he recorded a demo where he did actually do cookie monster growls.  JP felt that that was too harsh for DT's style, and Mike felt that the clean version with just James was too clean, so they agreed on a middle ground, and that's what we got.  Mike posted samples of all three versions.

EDIT:  Or...follow the link that was just posted. 

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Something that I don't get is, if JP wrote ANTR, how did MP end up cookie monstering it? Like, do we know if JP had melodic lyrics for that part at first and then MP decided it would be better with the growling? Or is it possible that JP intended there to be growling there? (I know, very unlikely)

He doesn't "growl" it.  It's just kind of an aggressive singing.  But, yes, there is a pretty detailed explanation that Mike gave on MP.com that was quoted here.  I'm sure if you use the search feature, you can find it.  But in short, it was originally designed as a clean section.  Because the music is so aggressive, Mike thought it would sound cool with more aggressive vocals, so he recorded a demo where he did actually do cookie monster growls.  JP felt that that was too harsh for DT's style, and Mike felt that the clean version with just James was too clean, so they agreed on a middle ground, and that's what we got.  Mike posted samples of all three versions.

EDIT:  Or...follow the link that was just posted. 

Oh, thanks! I guess I did hear that story, but for some reason I thought that was about the TDEN vocals. Thanks for clearing that up!

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

I get the feeling he didn't provide an MP3 example for the clean vocals because he thought the fans would like it better than the cookie monster.

[Sycsa]

I get the feeling he didn't provide an MP3 example for the clean vocals because he thought the fans would like it better than the cookie monster.

Crossed my mind as well and, although I like the album version, I'm really looking forward to hearing it in its original form next time they perform it live.

[?]

I get the feeling he didn't provide an MP3 example for the clean vocals because he thought the fans would like it better than the cookie monster.

Or maybe he didn't like that version enough to save the MP3?

[ariich]

On the whole I'm inclined to agree with Rob. The band's best lyrics, for me, have been where there has been nice imagery but tied into something you can understand and relate to in some way. They are too literal sometimes (mainly more recently), and too random othertimes (mainly in the early days).

On the whole I don't think there has been any particular shift in the quality of the lyrics, and no lyricist particularly stands out to me as being better or worse than others. For example JLB has written some of DT's best lyrics, but has also written Prophets of War.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

I really enjoyed MP's lyrics. For the most part they were really good, except for the occasional lame line like "Don't cross the crooked step". But I'd have to say that JP's lyrics are definitely my favorite, because he has so much diversity in his lyric writing, plus I love the fact that he takes the time to research things and write songs about them. I think that's definitely awesome. Another thing I really admire about DT and their lyrics is that they never write love songs, cause it seems like love songs are so easy to write and so generic (and by love songs, I mean romantic love songs, not like The Best of Times).

[Ben_Jamin]

I really enjoyed MP's lyrics. For the most part they were really good, except for the occasional lame line like "Don't cross the crooked step". But I'd have to say that JP's lyrics are definitely my favorite, because he has so much diversity in his lyric writing, plus I love the fact that he takes the time to research things and write songs about them. I think that's definitely awesome. Another thing I really admire about DT and their lyrics is that they never write love songs, cause it seems like love songs are so easy to write and so generic (and by love songs, I mean romantic love songs, not like The Best of Times).

Like every pop song ever.


I have no problem with their lyrics, I don't really understand the words sung most of the time in songs by many artists. So the delivery is what I listen to.

[Sycsa]

Another thing I really admire about DT and their lyrics is that they never write love songs, cause it seems like love songs are so easy to write and so generic (and by love songs, I mean romantic love songs, not like The Best of Times).

Endless Sacrifice is the best love song ever written.

[Dreamer81]

Another thing I really admire about DT and their lyrics is that they never write love songs, cause it seems like love songs are so easy to write and so generic (and by love songs, I mean romantic love songs, not like The Best of Times).

Endless Sacrifice is the best love song ever written.

This!!

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Another thing I really admire about DT and their lyrics is that they never write love songs, cause it seems like love songs are so easy to write and so generic (and by love songs, I mean romantic love songs, not like The Best of Times).

Endless Sacrifice is the best love song ever written.

This!!

Not a generic love song.

[Sketchy]

I have to admit, I'm a massive fan of the early lyrics. I love words for the feel they evoke, and to me that's often more "meaning" than the actual point of the song itself. Trial Of Tears and Lifting Shadows probably have my favourite DT lyrics.

[Lucien]

I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

TRIAL OF TEARS. Enough said.

[GasparXR]

I really enjoyed MP's lyrics. For the most part they were really good, except for the occasional lame line like "Don't cross the crooked step". But I'd have to say that JP's lyrics are definitely my favorite, because he has so much diversity in his lyric writing, plus I love the fact that he takes the time to research things and write songs about them. I think that's definitely awesome. Another thing I really admire about DT and their lyrics is that they never write love songs, cause it seems like love songs are so easy to write and so generic (and by love songs, I mean romantic love songs, not like The Best of Times).

There is I Walk Beside You, which is the closest thing to a romantic love song that they've written, but I actually enjoy the lyrics, not to mention the song it self.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

TRIAL OF TEARS. Enough said.

Yes, we get it. It's raining on the streets of New York City.. In my opinion, one of DT's weakest choruses.

[Sketchy]

I dunno, there's something terribly evocative about rain falling in a monolithic city. Something strangely beautiful but really heartbreaking at the same time.